An Examination of Revelation 1:7: Futurism vs. Preterism

[michael-acts17:11]

The term kingdom is used in Scripture to describe different kingdoms. God's kingdom is not limited to a thousand year span of time in a fallen world. We live in a spiritual kingdom & will enter into the kingdom of heaven at death. Where is the present kingdom? Christ answered that question quite clearly:

But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. (Mat 23:13)

As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; (Mat 13:40-41)

The apostles are all dead. Did any see Christ coming in His kingdom, or did Jesus lie to them?
Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. (Mat 16:28)

The world to come is not a thousand year period of time when the Old Law will be regenerated for the physical nation of Israel. It is the recreated world that will be an eternal world; free from sin and death.

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. (2Pe 3:10-13)

 

[Logos1]

Logos1
I am a partial preterist in that mt24,and most of Luke 17-22 were fulfilled in the judgement upon apostate Jerusalem.
Jesus coming was in judgement...not a physical coming...for example he promised the apostles

17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

This was not the second coming here.

I believe Jesus comes at the last day. The rapture is the last day.
The visible bodily return is on the last day.

Nothing else needs to take place, except a slight rebellion before the end...but the gospel is going worldwide,until the last day accomplishing exactly God's design perfectly.

Logos1.....why do you believe,ie, what text do you look for to say there is no visible return? Obviously you do not want to follow this;


You know this verse is here...so..clarify for me, if time permits..your view ?

I know you are a partial Preterist. I was too once. I was a strong dispy premil most of my life then in quick order became amil, partial Preterist, then full Preterist. Only full Preterist really made the bible all fit together for me without logical gaps and contradictions.

I agree he came in judgment against Jerusalem.

Christ told us his kingdom would not be a visible kingdom.

Luke 17:20-21

0Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, he answered them, "The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed, 21nor will they say, 'Look, here it is!' or 'There!' for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you."

 

[Logos1]

To the 99% comment I mis-read what you said sorry. I wasn't trying to twist your words I tend to scan through what is written the scan didm't work well this time.

As for your saying Christ isn't going to return here is my answer to you comment “When do you think the I come back quickly statements of Revelation will look silly to 99% of the general population—20,000; a hundred thousand years from now…”

2 Peter 3:
2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

Matthew 24:
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

As it was in the Days of Noah Peter says they scoffed at Naoh too, but then Christ says the Flood came even though they Scoffed.

I can claim this 2 Timothy 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

Which by the we get our Crowns upon His snatching the church out,

1 Corthians 3:
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

My Faith is in Christ and His work on the Cross to pay for my Sin that is my Foundation.

12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

I believe we all build up both types of these rewards when we fall back to sin we gain wood, hay and stubble when we follow after Him and do as the Holy Spirit leads we gain Gold Silver Precious stones. That is after all the material a crown is made from. The events at the end of Revelation show no rewarding of the believers what we see is the condemnation of the unbeliever at the Great White Throne. We see the army which comes with Christ clothed in White.

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Christ will try our work not us, we are covered by our foundation of Faith in Him.

14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
The Gold, Silver and Precious stone will survive the fire and we will have our crown or crowns.


15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Wood, Hay and Stubble will be consumed but the person is saved yet so by or through the testing fire all his rewards of wood, hay and stubble are consumed but that person foundation of faith remains.
Now notice something we see in
Revelation 4:
1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.
4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

When John is called up here for the vision the voice is like the trumpet and says come up hither, but then notice verse 4. The 24 Elders are sitting clothed in white and they had on their heads Crowns of Gold. Exactly as 1 Corinthians says they will have their reward. The call in Revelation 4:1 is showing How God will call the church out, He will snatch the belivers away and the Tribulation will begin as seen in the Vision John saw. The church is in Heaven as the Tribulation begins and ends with Christ return and the church by His side. Now also notice Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

As I have previously posted Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Christ promise that we who keep the word of His patience will be kept fron the hour or time of temptation (tribulation). Is seen in fulfillment by Revelation 4 and the beginning of Johns vision. You chose to believe He has already come but if He did and as some believe the book of Revelation written at an Earlier Date John would not have been seeing a vision but writing it all from heaven and the book of Jude will need to be disregarded since it was written 70 to 90 A.D. by Jude Who is believed by many to be the half Brother of Jesus and the Brother of James believed to have been the pastor of the church at Jerusalem.

Scripture shows it real clear how the Holy Spirit gave us the Revelation of things to come through each writer and their giving us what is to come.

Clothed in White Raiment is the promise for t hose who overcome, that would be the Church Believers we overcome through faith in Christ. So the 24 Elders meet that criteria, just as we see the believer rewarded in ! Corinthians 3.

Apology accepted.

A big part of your problem is you make the mistake of not letting time move forward after an event is spoken of in the bible. Time stands still for you.

Christ obviously knows more about his return after returns to heaven than he did while earth bound based on the events he lays out to John in Revelation.

His return was in the future to the Apostles at the time of writing the NT, but it is in the past to us.

In Matthew 24 he links the end of the age with the destruction of the temple. Obviously he is speaking of the end of the Old Covenant age not the end of time.

 

[revmwc]

Apology accepted.

A big part of your problem is you make the mistake of not letting time move forward after an event is spoken of in the bible. Time stands still for you.

Christ obviously knows more about his return after returns to heaven than he did while earth bound based on the events he lays out to John in Revelation.

His return was in the future to the Apostles at the time of writing the NT, but it is in the past to us.

In Matthew 24 he links the end of the age with the destruction of the temple. Obviously he is speaking of the end of the Old Covenant age not the end of time.

Again I will say even if revelation was written previous to 70 A.D instead of as church history says 95 to 98 A.D then you still must deal with everything in Jude which was written betwwen 70 to 80 A.D.

Jude says this:
6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.
17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.

The Angels which kept not their first estate are in Judes time still awaiting Judgement as they are today.
Christ is still yet to come to execute judgement on the ungodly, and that there would mockers in the last day.
Notice that Jude talks about how the apostles say there will be scoffers he must have read 2 Peter or Peters letter 2 Peter 3:

2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

Both speak of scoffers in the last day,most believe 2 Peter would have been written before 65 to 67 A.D. since that is when Peter was martyred.
So Jude would have read and known the writting. Jude however never mentions the return of Christ as having occured, yet he does say the return will occur. He as Peter says there will be scoffers in the last days who will say where id his coming. So even with an early date for revelation Jude has a 70 to 80 A.D writting and was still looking for his coming.

 

[revmwc]

Apology accepted.

A big part of your problem is you make the mistake of not letting time move forward after an event is spoken of in the bible. Time stands still for you.

Christ obviously knows more about his return after returns to heaven than he did while earth bound based on the events he lays out to John in Revelation.

His return was in the future to the Apostles at the time of writing the NT, but it is in the past to us.

In Matthew 24 he links the end of the age with the destruction of the temple. Obviously he is speaking of the end of the Old Covenant age not the end of time.

Even the early church fathers into the 300 and past were looking for His return. The timing of God is not the same as ours, God said it would be a time in which He was long suffering for men to come to repentence. Not our time but man's time. Matthew 24 starts with the prophecy of the destruction of the temple which we all agree occured in 70 A.D.
Then the disciples ask what shall be the sign of His coming. Verse 8 being the key to the change, at that point we see the change the begining of sorrows or the tribulation. During that time the Gospel of the Kingdom will be preached, that during the 7 year trib, and we know that the 144,000 Jews will be preaching the message.
Then at the 3 1/2 year point the Abomination of desolation will be set up in the Holy Place so the temple will be rebuilt at some point. At the of the tribulation of those days the sun and moon are darkened and not give light.
Verse 33 those who see those signs are to know the return is near, even at the doors and verse 34 the generation that sees those signs and that day WILL NOT pass till these things be fulfilled. That will be the Tribulational generation that may be our generation, not all of them will pass until it is all fulfilled. Knowing that the church is removed as 1 Thes and 1 Cor tell us and combined with the prophecy of REvelation 4 and the promise of Jesus in Rev 3:10.
Then at the end of the Tribulation we see two in the field, two grinding and two sleeping, one is taken and as Rev 19: 20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
This is the fulfillment of Mat 24:40 and 41.
He has yet to come and fulfill this judgement upon all mankind He has not removed the church and people are still being saved today and looking for His imminent return.

 

[lastday]

MB,
I'm struck with your ability to show the fallacy of "Logos Logic" and put him in his place:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Logos1 View Post
By Logos: "Hmmm, a bit of a futurist pickle isn’t it. Hmmm, kind of a circular contradiction of futurist’s dogma isn’t it. Hmmm, care to set a date for us MB?"

Don't be ridiculous. No one not even the great logos knows when Christ will come.
MB

 

[DHK]

Apology accepted.
His return was in the future to the Apostles at the time of writing the NT, but it is in the past to us.

You base an entire theology here on an unwarranted assumption--an early date for the Book of Revelation (70 A.D.). But you have no evidence for this.
Every Bible encyclopedia, commentary, Bible dictionary, the well respected ISBE, and even Josephus himself all date the writing of the Book of Revelation between 96-98 A.D. It had to be. All the evidence points to it. Even the internal evidence points to it.

I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. (Revelation 1:9)
--John testifies that he was on the Island of Patmos.
All testimony agrees that he was banished there by Domitian who reigned during that time (96-98 A.D.). That is the time when he wrote this book. All the evidence is contrary to your early dating of this book, and yet all your assumptions and theories are based on your false date of this book. Christ had not returned. John in the last chapter of this book, right at the end of the first century was still praying "even so come Lord Jesus," the last prayer of the Bible.

 

[Iconoclast]

I know you are a partial Preterist. I was too once. I was a strong dispy premil most of my life then in quick order became amil, partial Preterist, then full Preterist. Only full Preterist really made the bible all fit together for me without logical gaps and contradictions.

I agree he came in judgment against Jerusalem.

Christ told us his kingdom would not be a visible kingdom.

Luke 17:20-21

0Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, he answered them, "The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed, 21nor will they say, 'Look, here it is!' or 'There!' for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you."

LOGOS
I agree with luke 17 as the kingdom is now.....however I believe the eternal state and second coming will be very visible....What leads you to believe there will not be a visible return,and visible eternal state???

 

[Logos1]

Consider this

LOGOS
I agree with luke 17 as the kingdom is now.....however I believe the eternal state and second coming will be very visible....What leads you to believe there will not be a visible return,and visible eternal state???

In terms of it will not be a visible return. Not only do we have Luke 17:20-21 we also have the Words of Christ and the apostles about his coming being a presence not a physical, literal coming. For example:

In Matthew 24: 3, 23,27,39 the word for coming is Parousia which really means the presence of the Lord—not a physical body coming.

Tie this into the old testament comings of God like in Isaiah 19:1 when God rode a swift cloud against Egypt. No one saw God riding any clouds but understood his hand, his will, his presence was found in the Assyrian army defeating Egypt.

The only way the apostles could understand this type of coming was if it was the same type of coming they were already familiar with in the scriptures unless they were told differently. Christ didn’t redefine his coming or tell us it should be interpreted differently. So there is no reason for us to interpret it differently—yet we turn it into literal English because we don’t know how to apply the language to what was the scriptures for them or our Old Testament.

Further strong evidence is 1 Thessalonians 4:15; 5:23 and other places in the epistle which again uses the term Parousia.

Notice here when the Thessalonians think they have missed the return of Christ and Paul corrected them and told them he had not returned yet the way in which he corrects them.

He didn’t say you won’t be able to miss the Lord’s return because every physical eye will see him appear in the sky or the earth will be burned up and destroyed—don’t worry you can’t miss it—he only corrects them on the timing not the nature of his return. They had the nature of his return correct—it was possible to miss that—it wasn’t an event placed at the end of time.

Also note verses in the new testament such as Christ will return with all his saints as in 1 Thess 3:13 this is just a twist on the same pattern in the old testament for such verses as Deut 33:2, Zech 14:5 etc which again is a Jewish expression for the presence of God—no one ever saw God up in the sky with angels, holy ones, etc.

There are so many verses that fall into harmony only when viewed this way.

 

[Logos1]

That was easy--yet again!

You base an entire theology here on an unwarranted assumption--an early date for the Book of Revelation (70 A.D.). But you have no evidence for this.
Every Bible encyclopedia, commentary, Bible dictionary, the well respected ISBE, and even Josephus himself all date the writing of the Book of Revelation between 96-98 A.D. It had to be. All the evidence points to it. Even the internal evidence points to it.

I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. (Revelation 1:9)
--John testifies that he was on the Island of Patmos.
All testimony agrees that he was banished there by Domitian who reigned during that time (96-98 A.D.). That is the time when he wrote this book. All the evidence is contrary to your early dating of this book, and yet all your assumptions and theories are based on your false date of this book. Christ had not returned. John in the last chapter of this book, right at the end of the first century was still praying "even so come Lord Jesus," the last prayer of the Bible.

Say what?

DHK

I think you better let me decide what I base my beliefs on. I do such a better job at that than you do when you twist my words for me. This post is right out of left field, but no matter brother.

First the author of John is more likely John Mark than it is St. John (Revelation reads much more like 2 Peter than it does St. John’s epistles). Further John Mark was most likely on a mission trip to Patmos and not exiled there.

There is no physical, literal, nor actual evidence on Patmos that John was ever there simply old wives tales that get repeated and believed and sainted into the gospel by men—sorry to have to burst your bubble—but, facts is facts.

You should cut back on your posting long enough to read up on the book of Revelation. Chap 2:9 and 3:9 refer to the Jewish persecution of the church—that my friend is internal evidence of the early dating of Revelation which puts to shame all the references to Irenaeus who advocated including Gnostic writings in the inclusion of the New Testament and was known as not the brightest light bulb in the early church too boot.

You make this easy for me DHK.

 

[Logos1]

Dating?

Again I will say even if revelation was written previous to 70 A.D instead of as church history says 95 to 98 A.D then you still must deal with everything in Jude which was written betwwen 70 to 80 A.D.

Jude says this:
6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.
17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.

The Angels which kept not their first estate are in Judes time still awaiting Judgement as they are today.
Christ is still yet to come to execute judgement on the ungodly, and that there would mockers in the last day.
Notice that Jude talks about how the apostles say there will be scoffers he must have read 2 Peter or Peters letter 2 Peter 3:

2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

Both speak of scoffers in the last day,most believe 2 Peter would have been written before 65 to 67 A.D. since that is when Peter was martyred.
So Jude would have read and known the writting. Jude however never mentions the return of Christ as having occured, yet he does say the return will occur. He as Peter says there will be scoffers in the last days who will say where id his coming. So even with an early date for revelation Jude has a 70 to 80 A.D writting and was still looking for his coming.

How did this discussion get veered into dating anything?

is is this another one of your tactics to skirt the issue when you run out of scriptural ammo to make your case Rev?

As far as dates go none of the books of the New Testament mention Christ’s prophecy about the destruction of the temple coming true and most scholars who approach this honestly agree there is no way the NT writers would have left that fact out if it had already happened. All of these trumped reasons you can concoct pale in comparison.

You can make the writing of Revelation last week if you want—you just can’t make a real convincing argument for it.

You still haven’t been able to explain, twist, or torture away the words of Christ that he was coming back soon and given the 2,000 years of failure of your position you surely realize in everyone’s eyes you will look foolish at some point. It will take longer in the eyes of some than others, but eventually 99% of the population will in their own time and own way reach the conclusion that you have misinterpreted the return of Christ and he actually came back in 70 AD. Just the way it is my friend.

 

[Logos1]

And now the most famous dater of the BB back by popular demand

MB,
I'm struck with your ability to show the fallacy of "Logos Logic" and put him in his place:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Logos1 View Post
By Logos: "Hmmm, a bit of a futurist pickle isn’t it. Hmmm, kind of a circular contradiction of futurist’s dogma isn’t it. Hmmm, care to set a date for us MB?"

Don't be ridiculous. No one not even the great logos knows when Christ will come.
MB

Any times dates are being bantered around Mel shows up like a certain mythological creature coming out on a full moon. I love it!

Why Mel that’s almost enough to make me wonder who’s side you are on in these little debates—we full preterists have to stick together against those futurist heathen!

“Your understanding of the inspiration of Scripture is utterly astounding!” Mel

Why thank you Mel!

P.S. Hmm, do you have any new dates for us today Mel!

 

[Logos1]

Even the early church fathers into the 300 and past were looking for His return. The timing of God is not the same as ours, God said it would be a time in which He was long suffering for men to come to repentence. Not our time but man's time. Matthew 24 starts with the prophecy of the destruction of the temple which we all agree occured in 70 A.D.
Then the disciples ask what shall be the sign of His coming. Verse 8 being the key to the change, at that point we see the change the begining of sorrows or the tribulation. During that time the Gospel of the Kingdom will be preached, that during the 7 year trib, and we know that the 144,000 Jews will be preaching the message.
Then at the 3 1/2 year point the Abomination of desolation will be set up in the Holy Place so the temple will be rebuilt at some point. At the of the tribulation of those days the sun and moon are darkened and not give light.
Verse 33 those who see those signs are to know the return is near, even at the doors and verse 34 the generation that sees those signs and that day WILL NOT pass till these things be fulfilled. That will be the Tribulational generation that may be our generation, not all of them will pass until it is all fulfilled. Knowing that the church is removed as 1 Thes and 1 Cor tell us and combined with the prophecy of REvelation 4 and the promise of Jesus in Rev 3:10.
Then at the end of the Tribulation we see two in the field, two grinding and two sleeping, one is taken and as Rev 19: 20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
This is the fulfillment of Mat 24:40 and 41.
He has yet to come and fulfill this judgement upon all mankind He has not removed the church and people are still being saved today and looking for His imminent return.

I think the testimony of Christ’s soon return by Himself and the apostles will trump the Church fathers of 300 AD any day of the week.

The early church fathers were not inspired writers.

If you want to know what the abomination of desolation is then look at Luke 21:20

"And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh."

Christ himself tells us what the abomination of desolation is so we don’t have to speculate on it. You can argue whether his was referring to the Roman army or zealot armies leading up to the battle with Rome—but either way it is an army.

Obviously when Christ says this generation shall not pass till these things be fulfilled he is referring to his generation---he would have specified so if he meant another generation.

How could anyone miss that? Only by trying to turn it into something it isn’t.

Those two in the field compared to Noah that you try to turn into a rapture verse—that comparison is totally reversed.

In Noah day it was the one who got swept away by the flood that God’s judgment came down on—Noah and his family were the ones left behind.

This comparison exposes the rapture for the “fool’s errand” that it really is. It’s so laughable. I just wish Mel would give is another date for it.

The sword proceeding out of Christ’s mouth—I know I know you think there is a literal sword like his tongue that is coming out of his mouth like that painting we see all the time.

This is referring to the presence of Christ—it is the exact same thing referred to as the Logos in John chapter 1 and Genesis 1 when it says the spirit of God hovered over the deep.

It is the same as the Word of God goes out and accomplishes his purposes and not return to me empty in Isaiah 55:11

These are all different ways of expressing the presence of God, of Christ, of the Lord.

Thinking a sword will protrude out of his mouth—no wonder people then think they can turn the soon coming of Christ into something 2,000 years into the future and think it is still imminent.

Well people are still being saved today and fortunately they will keep right on being saved for billions of years into the future.

Fewer and fewer people are for his imminent return since Preterism is gaining ground every where—but this post is long enough I’ll create a second to deal with that.

 

[Logos1]

Looking into the future

Preterism looks stronger every day that passes and futurism looks weaker and that trend will always continue—time is own our side.

Preterism has its own magazine, many authors who write on the topic and help explain it, it’s own radio, and more and more web sites, blogs, etc with each passing day.

Even the mainstream futurist’s study bibles are addressing it. Sure they disagree with it, but they can no longer ignore it and just pretend it will go away. Check out the ESV study bible for instance.

A few years ago no study bibles ever mentioned Preterism and now they feel compelled to.

At the same time more and more people are finding out that John Darby created the notion of a rapture and they are casting away that fairy tale as quickly as possible.

These are encouraging trends and I have no doubt they will continue.

 

[Logos1]

The apostles are all dead. Did any see Christ coming in His kingdom, or did Jesus lie to them?
Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. (Mat 16:28)

We know Christ doesn't lie therefore we know if we are honest that we have to look for a type of return which is not thousands of years into the future. (Well actually I did see one poster one time say he thinks those people are still alive out there some where living in disguise).

I don't know how anyone can be honest and try to get weasel their way around this verse.

This verse makes a mockery of the whole notion of futurism.

It's like a death blow to dispensationalism.

I know because I use to be a premil dispy--I can say it having been a member of the family most of my life.

When I realized the apostle where preterists I knew I had to change my theology to match theirs and not try to twist and torture theirs to match mine.

You would think people would be relieved they don't have to worry about the antichrist taking control of the world, the tribulation, etc but they seem to miss the excitement of it all. I guess it makes life less exciting for some--they miss the adrenalin rush it gives them.

They are addicted to it.

I enjoy a good dispy teacher as much as anybody. Even though I don't believe any of it now--it is still very entertaining stuff.

I'm glad I got to live before dispensationalism dies out and gets assigned to the dust bin of history. It has been a fun ride.

 

[Logos1]

I still haven't seen anyone make a legitimate case for Rev 1:7 being a literal, physical coming of Christ.

Or that every eye shall see him not mean perceive with the mind as opposed to see with the eyeball.

Or that those who pierced him not mean those of his generation.

I started posting to test what I believe in to give others a chance to point out the holes in it and make a better case for another way of thinking--but I don't really get much of that.

What I have gotten is the opportunity to learn all the means and methods that can be used to weasel around verses that futurists don't like. I get to see them take their best pot shots at verses that give them trouble.

In that sense it has been a learning experience just a different type of learning experience than what I was expecting.

 

[Iconoclast]

In terms of it will not be a visible return. Not only do we have Luke 17:20-21 we also have the Words of Christ and the apostles about his coming being a presence not a physical, literal coming. For example:

Logos1....In Lk 17...we have a description of the nature and coming of the Kingdom..., Logos I believe it has literally come...but as Jesus taught it is spiritual in nature.This does not speak to the time of the Lord's return however.
This would seem to be inconclusive as to your position.
In Matthew 24: 3, 23,27,39 the word for coming is Parousia which really means the presence of the Lord—not a physical body coming.

Agreed.....coming in judgement as happened several times in the OT.:thumbsup:

Tie this into the old testament comings of God like in Isaiah 19:1 when God rode a swift cloud against Egypt. No one saw God riding any clouds but understood his hand, his will, his presence was found in the Assyrian army defeating Egypt.

Again...agreed:thumbsup:
The only way the apostles could understand this type of coming was if it was the same type of coming they were already familiar with in the scriptures unless they were told differently.
Agreed

Christ didn’t redefine his coming or tell us it should be interpreted differently.

The Acts 1 passage, The White Throne judgement, seem to redefine things


So there is no reason for us to interpret it differently—yet we turn it into literal English because we don’t know how to apply the language to what was the scriptures for them or our Old Testament.

Further strong evidence is 1 Thessalonians 4:15; 5:23 and other places in the epistle which again uses the term Parousia.

Notice here when the Thessalonians think they have missed the return of Christ and Paul corrected them and told them he had not returned yet the way in which he corrects them.

He didn’t say you won’t be able to miss the Lord’s return because every physical eye will see him appear in the sky or the earth will be burned up and destroyed—don’t worry you can’t miss it—he only corrects them on the timing not the nature of his return. They had the nature of his return correct—it was possible to miss that—it wasn’t an event placed at the end of time.

Also note verses in the new testament such as Christ will return with all his saints as in 1 Thess 3:13 this is just a twist on the same pattern in the old testament for such verses as Deut 33:2, Zech 14:5 etc which again is a Jewish expression for the presence of God—no one ever saw God up in the sky with angels, holy ones, etc.

Isa 6 indicates Isaiah saw Jesus...asJohn remarks in ch12

41These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

In rev 4-5....Jn describes the Lamb On the Throne surrounded by holy ones

1After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
2And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

3And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.

4And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

5And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

6And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal

How do you reconcile these verses LOGOS?
There are so many verses that fall into harmony only when viewed this way.

Well ...I am in "partial agreement"....that leaves "partial disagreement"

 

[convicted1]

I have heard, and on here "saw", many views on Jesus' second coming. Now, when He comes again, He isn't going to fight satan and his minions and defeat him, because Jesus defeated him when He came forth from the tomb.

He isn't coming again to set up His Kingdom, because it is set up inside the believer.

Luke 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

He is coming in the cloud to do one thing: render judgement to the saved and heathen.

Rev. 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

So when Jesus comes in the cloud, He will resurrect both saint and sinner, with the saints rising first. The saints will join Jesus in the cloud, and that spiritual body that comes out of the ground, will reunite with that soul that is in the cloud with Jesus. Those who are alive, the saints will be changed in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, and they, too, will meet Jesus in the air. Now, those who are sinners when Jesus returns, will be found guilty of being sinners, and they, too, will be sent to the lake of fire. Those that died sinners, will come forth out of the grave with a spiritual body, though its not gonna be glorified like our bodies, and it will reunite with the soul that comes out of hell. Their sentence of being guilty, is rendered, and both the spirtual body and soul will be cast into the lake of fire, and this is the second death. So Jesus is coming to do one thing, seperate the "sheep" from the "goats". :thumbs: :thumbs: :thumbs:????

 

[Logos1]

I have heard, and on here "saw", many views on Jesus' second coming. Now, when He comes again, He isn't going to fight satan and his minions and defeat him, because Jesus defeated him when He came forth from the tomb.

He isn't coming again to set up His Kingdom, because it is set up inside the believer.

Luke 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

He is coming in the cloud to do one thing: render judgement to the saved and heathen.

Rev. 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

So when Jesus comes in the cloud, He will resurrect both saint and sinner, with the saints rising first. The saints will join Jesus in the cloud, and that spiritual body that comes out of the ground, will reunite with that soul that is in the cloud with Jesus. Those who are alive, the saints will be changed in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, and they, too, will meet Jesus in the air. Now, those who are sinners when Jesus returns, will be found guilty of being sinners, and they, too, will be sent to the lake of fire. Those that died sinners, will come forth out of the grave with a spiritual body, though its not gonna be glorified like our bodies, and it will reunite with the soul that comes out of hell. Their sentence of being guilty, is rendered, and both the spirtual body and soul will be cast into the lake of fire, and this is the second death. So Jesus is coming to do one thing, seperate the "sheep" from the "goats". :thumbs: :thumbs: :thumbs:????

I would say that those already dead and residing in Sheol or where ever such souls reside had to be risen from there and judged appropriately at the second coming.

For those individuals who lived since then at time of their death they are judged.

This allows for saints to go immediately into the presence of God when they die.

Interesting that all those premil dispy preachers who tell families of those who have died that the departed one has gone on to be with the Lord that they are actually taking a preterist position on such matters.

If they think the judgment is in the future then the souls of those who have died have to wait till the judgement they are waiting for to settle the issue of their eternal fate so can't go immediately into heaven to be in the presence of the Lord.

Did you get that Revmwc looks seems like 99% of preachers today are already of the preterist persuasion when it comes time to do a funeral. I bet even you are--welcome aboard!

 

[Logos1]

Well ...I am in "partial agreement"....that leaves "partial disagreement"

I was a partial preterist for a short time too--you may well complete your journey to full preterism before you know it. I doubt many who are partial think they will become full preterist at the time.

It was when I realized that the apostles were full preterists that I made my conversion to full preterism.