An Examination of Revelation 1:7: Futurism vs. Preterism

Your response using Luke 17:20 does not make your case.

As an asside, I was under the impression that Jesus called the Pharisees "blind guides...." so the meaning here is easy to understand. These Pharisees were the same individuals who after seeing Jesus perform a miracle, proceed to ask for a sign that he is who he sais he was.

 

So now we see your error in interpreting the Bible. The Kingdom of God and the Millinial Kingdom are two entirely different Kingdoms.

That premillinial rapture occurs even Spuregeon believed it in His Day.
Spurgeon, "Justification and Glory," in The Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, 11:249.
"If I read the word aright, and it is honest to admit that there is much room for difference of opinion here, the day will come, when the Lord Jesus will descend from heaven with a shout, with the trump of the archangel and the voice of God. Some think that this descent of the Lord will be post-millennial — that is, after the thousand years of his reign. I cannot think so. I conceive that the advent will be pre-millennial; that he will come first; and then will come the millennium as the result of his personal reign upon earth
The advent of the church being snatched away as 1 Thessalonians shows Spurgeon said was pre-millinial.
So then would come the Jews Messianic Kingdom. The one in which Messiah would reign on Davids throne. Not the Kingdom of Heaven but the Messianic or as is now referd the Millinial Kingdom as Jesus taught through John in the book of Revelation.

Matthew 6:
33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
The disciples and therefore we as believers at to seek the Kingdom of God, how do we obtain the Kingdom of God then, how do we seek it?
By reciving Christ and then following the Holy Spirit. For the Kingdom of God is a spiritual Kingdom.

Isaiah 9: 6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.
8 The Lord sent a word into Jacob, and it hath lighted upon Israel.

The Messianic Kingdom is seen here the Messiah will come and be born and He was and He was Jesus. He was cut off as Daiel prophisied. But the Balance of Isaiah must be fulfilled, "and the government shall be upon his shoulder" this has yet to occur.
Then it continues:
"his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace." We have yet to see these titles fulfilled.
Here is the key to it all:
"Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom" The Messiah was to see an increase of His Government, which has definitely not occured.
It would be a Kingdom of peace ewhich again man has not seen.
The Kingdom of Messiah will have no end, even though the reign on the current earth last 1000 years His reign continues when New Jerusalem comes and rest upon the earth.
The Messiah is the rule "upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom" in the 1st Advent He was despised and rejected as Messiah but at His 2nd coming He will rule upon the Throne of David and upon his (David's) Kingdom. Notice that this differes from what you posted about premillianism.

Spurgeon saw a millinial Kingdom that was preceded by the church being taken out. Paul taught that the Church would be taken out, Jesus through John in Revelation 4:1 shows a trumpet sound and a call to come up hither. All these show that the Church is snatched away as the original Greek tells us in 1 Thessalonians 4 the Messianic Kingdom as Isaiah talks about is yet to come.

 

You are saying that but the scripture does not.The Kingdom is now.
1 thess 4 is speaking of the last day.

 

Logos,


:thumbs::thumbs::applause:........good quotes

 

Qutestion of a general nature:

Can anyone tell me why I constantly get the feeling that I'm in a debate with teenagers or possibly early 20 something? Who said that Jesus won't setup a literal kingdom on earth?

 

Which Kingdom is Now, The Millinial Kijngdom where Christ reigns on Earth or the Kingdom of God, also the Kingdom of Heaven is menationed throughout Scripture some say it is the same as the Kingdom of God, so define which Kingdom is Now?

1st Thessalonians is nothing of the Last day it can't be in Revelation 19 to the end shows the Last Day and no event seen there mirrors the 1 Tessalonian passage nor 1 Corinthians 15: 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

Verse 52 mirrors 1st Thessalonians and says the dead in Christ, notice both term the dead in Christ or those who are asllep in Christ. The Jews were not considered to be in Christ, the 7 year Teibulation being the last week of Daniels 70 is a Jewish time, the church will be removed prior to that occuring. Jesus made that Promise, Revelation 3: 10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
Notice to those who keep His word of patience and wait upon Him the He will keep them from the hour or time of tempatation but the greek word (peirasmos) means trail, testing a time of rebellion therefore the time of Tribulation upon the world.

The Revelation 4:1 passage as compared to 1 Corinthians 15: 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed
and 1 Tessaloninas 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord
Now Revelation 4:1After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

In the Corinthains passage the trumpet shall sound and the dead shall rise and the believers changed. In 1 Thessalonians 4 the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God, the dead shall rise first then we (believers) who are alive and remain will be caught up together, Now Revelation 4:1 John says he sees heaven opened and then he says "the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither" look at the pararrels. THe heres two voces one like a trumpet both 1 Corinthians and 1 Tessalonians say the trumpet sounds, and the dead and living come up with Christ.
Then the events in heaven are seen in the rest of Revelation 4 and following that the time (hour) of trial (tribualtion) upon the earth. Revelation 3 Christ reomised to keep the Church from. All these passage work together to show a Pre-TRib snatching away of the Church and then the Tribulation for 7 years.

 

revmac,

all of the passages are speaking of the last day......caught up, changed,
Jesus told us;

not one of the verses you posted can negate this

rev3:10 was spoken to the church of philadelphia...not every church

rev4:1 was spoken to John himself....not the whole church

1cor 15 speaks of;

This is speaking of the last day.....

 

Again from the spugeon website:

http://www.spurgeon.org/eschat.htm#3d

Spurgeon:

I am no prophet, nor the son of a prophet; neither do I profess to be able to explain all the prophecies in this blessed Book. I believe that many of them will only be explained as the events occur which they foretell. Yet there are some things which are plain even to the most superficial reader. It is plain, for instance, that it is certainly foretold that the power of Antichrist shall be utterly and eternally destroyed, and that Babylon, that is to say, the Papal system, with all its abominations, shall be cast like a millstone into the flood, to rise no more for ever. It is also certain that the Jews, as a people, will yet own Jesus of Nazareth, the Son of David, as their King, and that they will return to their own land, "and they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the old cities, the desolations of many generations." It is certain also that our Lord Jesus Christ will come again to this earth, and that he will reign amongst his ancients gloriously, and that there will be a thousand years of joy and peace such as were never known on this earth before. It is also certain that there will be a great and general judgment, when all nations shall be gathered before the Son of man sitting upon the throne of his glory; and his final award concerning those upon his left hand will be, "These shall go away into everlasting punishment;" and concerning those upon his right hand, "but the righteous into eternal life." How all these great events are to be chronologically arranged, I cannot tell

The italized was added as the italics in the bible were.
But the reference is from:Spurgeon, "The Harvest and the Vintage," in The Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, 50:553-54
From the non-italics it clear Spurgeon was definitely not a preterist.
He believed in the literal second coming of Christ to reign for 1000 years in peace.

Further he preached:

"We know that Christ was really, personally, and physically here on earth. But it is not quite so clear to some persons that he is to come, really, personally, and literally the second time. . . Now, we believe that the Christ who shall sit on the throne of his father David, and whose feet shall stand upon Mount Olivet, is as much a personal Christ as the Christ who came to Bethlehem and wept in the manger."

Spurgeon, "The Two Advents of Christ," in The Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, 8:39.

On June 13, 1869, he told his congregation:

"We are to expect the literal advent of Jesus Christ, for he himself by his angel told us, "This same Jesus which is taken up from you into heaven shall so come in like manner [emphasis his] as ye have seen him go into heaven," which must mean literally and in person."

Spurgeon, "Things to Come," in The Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, 15:329.

Seems as if Spurgeon was telling his congregation Jesus was coming back literal in person not in a metaphoric or spiritual manner.

So Spurgeon was not a preterist in that he believed in a second coming.
References to his writtings and sermons are listed here and on the one I posted before check them out for yourself.

 

John 6:39 - 40 "Hemera" is used for last day the menaing is the end of the Age but you have to believe we live in the church age to apply the last day to this current age of Grace or the Church. In the last of the age the church will be snatched out. As for the Revelation 3 passage and it applying to the one church there only please tell us how you determine which parts of scripture apply only to those written to and which apply to them and the us and them.

1st Corinthians again is speaking of the last of this age in which we live the time of the church.

Revelation 4 when John comes up hither he sees the enthroned elders 24 with their rewards (crowns) so who are the 24 elders if not representatives of the church with the rewards as seen in 1 Coringthians 3?
Strong's Number: 2250 h(meÑra
Original Word Word Origin
h(meÑra from (with (5610) implied) of a derivative of hemai (to sit, akin to the base of (1476)) meaning tame, i.e. gentle
Transliterated Word Phonetic Spelling
Hemera hay-mer'-ah
Parts of Speech TDNT
Noun Feminine 2:943,309
Definition
the day, used of the natural day, or the interval between sunrise and sunset, as distinguished from and contrasted with the night
in the daytime
metaph., "the day" is regarded as the time for abstaining from indulgence, vice, crime, because acts of the sort are perpetrated at night and in darkness
of the civil day, or the space of twenty four hours (thus including the night)
Eastern usage of this term differs from our western usage. Any part of a day is counted as a whole day, hence the expression "three days and three nights" does not mean literally three whole days, but at least one whole day plus part of two other days.
of the last day of this present age, the day Christ will return from heaven, raise the dead, hold the final judgment, and perfect his kingdom
used of time in general, i.e. the days of his life.

 

No thanks I don't smoke and the Bible was written in Hebrew
Aramaic and Greek. I know you thought it was written in Latin

Sorry friend your the one who started this thread and it is a fantasy.

Oh you ought to write a comedy you're so funny.
I felt charitible when I answered your post. I though poor guy he's so misled somebody needs to help this person.

Finaly a description of how you think which is why you read into scripture rather than read things out of it. No wonder you're so rattled.

It's especially my pleasure so people can see what kind of person you really are.:laugh:
MB

 

Yes ...I will do that most gladly. The letters were written to seven churches that actually existed in that day,and they were given specific instructions for them at that time.
I do not know of any Nicolaitanes today....or
because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

was Antipas a faithful martyr.....in your church?
These warnings were given to them and were meant to be specific for them to repent of these situations.

These were specific writings to these churches.....we can learn much from these letters by way of application and seeing what Jesus spoke to them about. for example;
I know thy works
To him that overcometh will I give
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches

You pulling out rev .3:10 [I realize this is not what you personally came up with,but is part of the dispy theory]......to say this is the rapture is just plain fanciful ,and presupposes the false idea that some have offered that each church represents a period of time in church history.....a church today can be said to be in the Laodicean age,etc.....is just made up.

You pull out 3:10 and then quickly jump around to thess.4:13-17....and chase that down with...now see....
9For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.....

It makes a nice little neat package...I can hear Jack Van Impe repeating this over and over ..really fast....with his faithful sidekick Rexella....yes,Jack good verse:laugh:

REVMAC......it sounds really good..except it is just not the case.


God has not appointed us to wrath....We are secure in Christ.
1 thess4 is addressing the question...what happens to christians who have died? We both are raised up together...those who have already died are raised up,,, we who are alive and remain, are changed in the twinkling of an eye 1cor15.....this is a comfort to us. It was a comfort to them,and it is a comfort to us.

1thess 5 makes more sense if you see it as a warning to them of the coming persecution of 70 ad...same with Mt 24, and the early chapters of revelation....especially if the early date of the book can be established!

 

The second coming takes place in two phases:
1. The Rapture: 1Thes.4:16-20—when Christ comes for his own, and all those in Christ will be caught up to meet him in the air, forever to be with him.
2. The Second Advent. Seven years after the rapture Christ will come again. This time he will come in power with the holy angels. Every eye shall see him. He will come with the saints in heaven. It will be at the end of a seven year period of tribulation, the Great Tribulation, a time when God will be pouring out his wrath upon this world. Christ will come to defeat the enemies of Israel, and then all Israel, as a nation will be saved (Romans 11:26). Then Christ will set up His Kingdom, the Millennial Kingdom and rule for a thousand years.

The entire premise of preterism rests upon the flimsy premise of an early date of revelation, being 70 A.D. or even earlier, just for the fact that the historic event of the fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of the Temple is not mentioned by John in the book. They don’t look at the purpose of God in the book, only through man’s eyes. God’s purpose was not to speak of the Temple, but to reveal things to come (primarily). It was apocalyptic in nature. The preterists look at the Book in Revelation and basically blame God for not putting in the book what they think God should have put in the book. Therefore they deliberately change the date of the book from 96 to 70 A.D.

Now back to the verse at hand:
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. (Revelation
1:7)

Now this is the second advent, not the rapture. It occurs after the tribulation when Christ comes for the salvation of Israel at the Battle of Armageddon. But long before that happens other events must transpire, starting with the rapture. It could happen any day.
Consider first the population of the world today—about six billion.
Or, perhaps he will come when the world reaches 8 billion, we don’t know. What I am saying is this: When the rapture takes place it will have some effect in the population of the world—not a big decrease, but some decrease. And then God’s wrath will begin.

This will be such a terrible time that they will seek death and shall not be able to find it:

And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? (Revelation 6:16-17)

And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them. (Revelation 9:16)
--An army of 200 million sent from God.
By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths. (Revelation 9:18)
--Whatever the population of the world is 6-8 billion, one third of them will be killed.

Now as regards the OP, I don’t think that people are going to be in the mines working. I don’t think that life is going to anything like normal. What will life be like during this period? This verse sums it up:

And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them. (Revelation 9:6)
But in spite of that:
Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts. (Revelation 9:21)

More death:
And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven. (Revelation 11:13)

Part of the description of the battle:
The angel thrust his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vintage of the earth, and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. The winepress was trodden outside of the city, and blood came out from the winepress, even to the bridles of the horses, as far as one thousand six hundred stadia. (Revelation 14:19-20) WEB
--Enough blood of killed men to fill a field as long as 1600 football fields to the height of the bridles of the average horse. Now what will the population of the world be?

Back to the plagues. The last plagues are the vials:
And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. (Revelation 16:16)
And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great. (Revelation 16:19-21)

About three years ago a boy thought he would play a “prank” and dropped a rock of about 10-20 pounds from an overpass. The velocity of the rock combined with the speed of the bus that it hit, killed the driver of the bus, as it hit the windshield dead on.
These hailstones will be one-hundred pounds each. How much damage will a one-hundred pound hailstone do to you, your house, your car, etc. How many deaths with such a storm cause?

For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities. Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double. (Revelation 18:5-6)
And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city! (Revelation 18:18)
And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all. (Revelation 18:21)
And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth. (Revelation 18:24)

And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. (Revelation 19:19)
And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh. (Revelation 19:20-21)
--You can harmonize these events with Matthew 24 and 25. Every eye will see Him. Israel will be waiting for him, and as a nation will be saved. The nations of the world will be gathered against Israel ready to destroy her. Christ will come to destroy them. They will see him. Christ will come in the glory of his father, and will come with a sword to defeat those nations. Look again:

And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. (Revelation 19:15)
--He will defeat the nations (of the earth) and then set up his kingdom, and rule the nations of the earth with a rod of iron (thus the Millennial Kingdom).

After the Tribulation: The Millennial Kingdom
After the Kingdom: The Great White Throne Judgment.
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Revelation 20:10)
And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. (Revelation 20:11)
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:14-15)

 

Dhk,
The early date for revelation would change things quite a bit.

In either case...the premill rapture is not taught in scripture.

partial preterists see it as a warning to the first century churc h about the judgement that came upon Jerusalem,as Jesus said it would,and did.

They most certainly do.

If anything they explain it in great detail in a more biblical fashion.

 

When scripture upon scripture and it shows the point being made then that pretty much answers the whole question.
So if you can put scripture upon scripture to prove that Christ returned in 70 A.D. you can prove your doctrine correctly. If you have no scriptural back up then the theory has no meat. No where does scripture say He would return when the destruction of Jerusalem occured.
In fact Christ said in Matthew 24: 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

That these events must take place before He would return in judgement and as King (2nd Advent). The key that proves this was not in 70 A.D. is verse 15 the abomination that maketh desolate spoken of in Daniel had not occured during Christ time. So somewhere between 30 A.D to the 70 A.D. return you claim took place the abomination would need to have stood for 3 1/2 years and then the Jews would go back to offering the oblation. This has yet to occur and christ said it would come to pass before HE returned to judge the nations and His Kingdom to be set up.
Notice Christ says exactly where the abmonation that maketh desolate would stand, IN THE HOLY PLACE that would be in the temple. This didn't occur in the 40 years after Chrsit ascended and it has yet to happen. So the conclussion becomes what?
You must be able to prove it occured in that time frame to prove we are in the kingdom.

 

Yes, that is why you need to go against all reliable evidence in order to make your pre-conceived ideas fit. Instead of looking at the evidence first, you consider your theory and then make the book fit your theory. Pure eisigesis. Ignore the facts if you will. But every commentary I have looked at, Bible dictionaries, encyclopedias, ISBE, and Josephus himself agree that John wrote the book when he was exiled on the Isle of Patmos, exiled there by Domitian when he was emperor, as John himself testifies.

I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. (Revelation 1:9)
--This happened during the reign of Domitian 96-98 A.D. You have started on a false premise and you have ended with a false conclusion.

Your opinion only. It is taught all throughout Scripture. As you know there are many on this board that believe it, so I will not go into that point now. There is far more evidence and Scripture for the premill position than the preterist position.

You can see it any way you want it to, but that doesn't make it true. Many people are color blind.

The preterists IMO, do not have a Biblical view at all. In some areas they have to make things up (the date of the book), deny cardinal doctrines (the resurrection bodies both of the Lord and of us), deny the bodily ascension of the Lord Jesus Christ, deny the literal second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ, etc. These are serious doctrines IMO that are being denied, all in the name of a man-made doctrine.

 

Even with the Early Date of revelation you would have the book of Jude to deal with since it was written between 70 to 80 A.D. and yet Jude being the brother of the writter of James mention nothing in it of the coming of Christ. Many believe this was Jesus half bropther, he would definitely have written about it, but the Holy Spirit put nothing in either book about the Lord returning. The churches written to in Revelation continued to preach the Gospel and grow into the 100A.D.s had christ returned for His church as you claim the ggospel would have ceased to be propagated unless there were 144,000 jewish converts. The 70 A.D. time is the destruction of Jerusalem but if Christ returned for His church then it would have included all believers everywhere. Including in Etheopia with the eunuch. But nothing records this event not scripture and not extra-biblical history. So the theory has no scriptural or historical back up, which makes it an empty theory.