An Examination of Revelation 1:7: Futurism vs. Preterism

[Logos1]

1After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
2And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

3And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.

4And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

5And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

6And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal
How do you reconcile these verses LOGOS?
There are so many verses that fall into harmony only when viewed this way.

I don't see a problem with these events happening at 70 AD.

Is that what you are asking do I see them happening at 70AD or in the future?

 

[mandym]

Revelation 1:7
Common English Bible (CEB)
Look, he is coming with the clouds! Every eye will see him, including those who pierced him, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of him. This is so. Amen.

Futurists look at this verse and believe that Christ will roll back the skies and fly down from heaven and every person will see him with their own eyes. To them it is assurance to hold on to that Christ will return in a literal, physical body to take the Saints home or rescue Jerusalem or whatever particular action is called for in a particular view of futurism.

Of course you have to suspend any logical analysis of it for that statement for it to work.

Every eye will see him—what about the people underground at work, riding subways, or sleeping, or those on the opposite side of the earth—obviously this view of the verse runs into problems right away.

But if a literal, physical six foot (more or less) Jesus appeared in the sky even the people directly below him couldn’t see something as small as six feet long that high up.

We know that this view of the verse can’t be right, right there, but wait it gets worse. Those who pierced him are the Roman soldiers at his crucifixion (or by extension those involved in his crucifixion such as the Jewish leadership) and these people are now 2,000 years old and still counting. Ouch.

The weakest argument I have ever seen. It could be said that one must suspend reality to believe in a literal and physical resurrection of Christ. But where God is involved then I have no problem believing that Christ could rise from the grave, the earth was flooded by water, Four men survived the furnace of a King, and angel spoke with Daniel, a serpent spoke with Eve, or Jesus physical return will be seen by all.

 

[Logos1]

The weakest argument I have ever seen. It could be said that one must suspend reality to believe in a literal and physical resurrection of Christ. But where God is involved then I have no problem believing that Christ could rise from the grave, the earth was flooded by water, Four men survived the furnace of a King, and angel spoke with Daniel, a serpent spoke with Eve, or Jesus physical return will be seen by all.

mandym

feel free to think so--your belief won't change anything one way or the other. And, your not having any scriptural argument to back up your beliefs won't persuade anyone searching for answers only those whose mind is already made up.

 

[mandym]

mandym

feel free to think so--your belief won't change anything one way or the other. And, your not having any scriptural argument to back up your beliefs won't persuade anyone searching for answers only those whose mind is already made up.

What? Did you read your op?

 

[Logos1]

What? Did you read your op?

sure did--don't see any problem with it--do you have any particular problem with it other than just being in denial of it in general--which is your choice and of no concern of mine.

 

[mandym]

sure did--don't see any problem with it--do you have any particular problem with it other than just being in denial of it in general--which is your choice and of no concern of mine.

You need to hold yourself to your won standard

 

[Logos1]

You need to hold yourself to your won standard

LOL, did you read your own post--I agree I have a winning standard here in full preterism and recognizing the second coming has already taken place. It may take you to heaven to agree, but I'm sure you will agree with me one day--don't worry though I won't hold any earthly disagreements against you over on the other side.

 

[mandym]

LOL, did you read your own post--I agree I have a winning standard here in full preterism and recognizing the second coming has already taken place. It may take you to heaven to agree, but I'm sure you will agree with me one day--don't worry though I won't hold any earthly disagreements against you over on the other side.

Oh, I assumed I was talking with an adult. Take care young person. God Bless

 

[Logos1]

Oh, I assumed I was talking with an adult. Take care young person. God Bless

LOL, Good bye old person have a great day and God bless.

 

[DHK]

Say what?

DHK

I think you better let me decide what I base my beliefs on. I do such a better job at that than you do when you twist my words for me. This post is right out of left field, but no matter brother.

Is it out in left field? Those who deny the literal coming of Christ are out in left field IMO; a fundamental teaching of our faith.

First the author of John is more likely John Mark than it is St. John (Revelation reads much more like 2 Peter than it does St. John’s epistles). Further John Mark was most likely on a mission trip to Patmos and not exiled there.

Look, I don't know what your credentials are. I have been a pastor/Bible College teacher for over 30 years. In that time I preached verse by verse through the book of Revelation, ending up with a commentary of over 500 pages. That makes me more than qualified to speak on this subject.

All the commentaries and evidence that I have come across have attested that the author is the apostle John, as does the internal evidence itself, where John identifies himself.

There is no physical, literal, nor actual evidence on Patmos that John was ever there simply old wives tales that get repeated and believed and sainted into the gospel by men—sorry to have to burst your bubble—but, facts is facts.

I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. (Revelation 1:9)
--Your opinion vs. the Word of God.
I believe the Word of God; not your opinion. It, no doubt has a value of less than 2 cents, your opinion that is.

You should cut back on your posting long enough to read up on the book of Revelation. Chap 2:9 and 3:9 refer to the Jewish persecution of the church—that my friend is internal evidence of the early dating of Revelation which puts to shame all the references to Irenaeus who advocated including Gnostic writings in the inclusion of the New Testament and was known as not the brightest light bulb in the early church too boot.

Let's look at one of those verses:

I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan. (Revelation 2:9)
--There was constant persecution by the Roman government.
--There was also persecution by some of the Jews. There always was. Remember the persecution by Saul before he became Paul. He was zealous in his persecution of the Christians. The hatred of Christ reached a zenith at the time of the crucifixion of Christ. Read Paul's missionary journeys. In every city he went he was chased out by gospel-hating Jews. They are described here as "synagogues of Satan," places of teaching that taught hatred against Christianity, such as we find in the Book of Acts. It took place in the book of Acts, if you would dare to read and study that book. It took place in the time of Saul, later called Paul, if you would dare to read his testimony.

You make this easy for me DHK.

No, you have made it easy for me.
You don't have a leg to stand on except your own opinion.
You discount the very testimony of the Word of God, and say that your opinion has greater authority than God's Word. That is truly sad.

 

[lastday]

The End of Time

Logos1,
In post #92, you leave the impression that I am a full preterist. This is duplicitous.
Quote:
Any times dates are being bantered around Mel shows up like a certain mythological creature coming out on a full moon. I love it!

Why Mel that’s almost enough to make me wonder who’s side you are on in these little debates—we full preterists have to stick together against those futurist heathen!

“Your understanding of the inspiration of Scripture is utterly astounding!” Mel

Why thank you Mel!

P.S. Hmm, do you have any new dates for us today Mel!
Reply With Quote
You assume the "End of Time" refers to the end of the Old Covenant and that it took place in 70 AD. The Old Covenant ended at the Cross.
Here is my take on the Endtime:

The Meticulous Exactness of God's Prophetic Plan...Daniel's 70 Sets of Seven Years

Twelve years ago, during Shavuot (Pentecost), I posted the Centerpiece of Lastday events that
will occur on the day Christ returns in glory with all the Saints to redeem Israel and restore her
as "His People" the 2nd time. Hosea's prophecy will be fulfilled in a single day of Redemption.

Yesterday, on the 2nd day of Shavuot (Sivan 7, 5771; June 9, 2011), the Lord led me to discover
the exactness of 70 Sevens or 490 years. Sixty-nine sets (483 prophetic years) were fulfilled on
Palm Sunday, the last day of 68 sets of solar sevens (476 years from 444 BC to 33 AD). The solar
days in 68 sets of seven was 173,859 from Nisan 30 of 444 BC to Nisan 9 of 33 AD. Only by using
68 sets of solar sevens could there be a whole number of 24-hour days in which to fulfill the 69
sets of Prophetic Sevens...or 173,880 days between Sunday, Nisan 30, 444 BC and Sunday, Nisan
30 of 33 AD.

However, 21 days of the 69 Prophetic Sets of Seven (Nisan 9 to Nisan 30 of 33 AD) were not
fulfilled. Palm Sunday occurred on Nisan 9 of 33 AD. Christ was "cut off" five days after Palm
Sunday, on Friday, Nisan 14; Dan.9:26. So the 173,859 days of 68 sets of solar sevens ended on
Nisan 9, 33 AD...not Nisan 30 which would have been 173,880 days. Since 1999, until yesterday,
I have wondered how these 21 unfulfilled days fit into God's overall Prophetic Plan.

In the Hebrew calendar countdown for the 70th Set of Seven years (367 weeks or 2569 days),
there will be 14 uncounted days more than the Gregorian solar days (365 weeks or 2555 days).
Adding 21 and 14 produces 35 uncounted days...the same number of 35 extra days between our
365 solar Gregorian weeks of 2555 days (7x365) and 360 Prophetic weeks of 2520 days (7x360).
While the 2555 solar days will be "cut short" by 35 days to that of 2520 days, the total number
of 2569 days for the Hebrew countdown will be exactly fulfilled between the Feast of Tabs on
Tishri 15 at the start and finish of the final 7-Year Period (70th "7") of God's Prophetic Plan.

These 3 uncounted weeks of the first 69 sets of seven years and 2 uncounted weeks of the
70th set of seven years equal the difference between 360 Prophetic and 365 solar weeks. At
the same time the final set of seven has two solar leap-year days so that there are 2557 days
or 365 weeks plus the two leap days. Without the extra leap day there could not be a whole
number of 24-hour days in 7 years. A period of 365.25x7 cannot produce a whole number of
24-hour days.Only God's Plan could provide such meticulous exactness. It takes the extra leap
day to provide the exact number of solar days and the exact difference of 35 days or 5 weeks.

The 35 uncounted days (365 minus 360 weeks) between a Gregorian and Prophetic countdown,
plus the 14 uncounted days between the Hebrew and Gregorian calendars (2569 minus 2555),
equal the 49 extra days between the Hebrew and Prophetic countdown (367 minus 360 weeks).
The extra 49 days are required by the 2569 days from Tishri 15 to start the final 7 years on a
Saturday and end the period 7 years later on Tishri 15, also a Saturday. This setting allows the
final Jubilee to fulfill Lev.23:34-36,39 on the Day of the Lord at the Feast of Tabernacles and
launches the Millennial Reign of Christ over the entire world.

Perhaps the most astounding revelation of all is that 46 of the extra 49 days will precede and
anticipate the start of the final 360 weeks (70th Seven) of Prophetic time!

Then, 1260 days (180 weeks) further into the 70th "7", the 1306th day (46+1260) of 2569 days,
1. The Two Witnesses (who stand against the Beast), will begin to prophesy during the 2nd
half of 2520 days that Daniel calls the "Endtime" period.
2. They will perform any miracle they wish, including the total prevention of rain and kill all
who seek their death UNTIL the 2566th day of the 2569 Hebrew days.
3. They are killed by the Beast on the 2520th day of the 70th Seven of Prophetic time!!

They will arrive from heaven on the 7th day of Passover Week of Unleavened Bread, will
prophesy 1260 days, be left dead 3 days to finish the 49 extra days that bracket the entire
Prophetic Period of 360 weeks and fulfill all but 26 or 27 days of the solar period of 365
weeks. The solar days of the 70th Seven will be "cut short" from 2555 days (365 weeks cut by
35 days) and the Prophetic days will be completed in 2520 days...3 or 4 days before Christ
appears with all the Saints to redeem Israel at the Feast of Tabs and place His former People
at the head of the nations for 1000 years!!!

The exactness of God's 490-Year Prophetic Plan demonstrates what He alone could have
accomplished. Sixty-nine sets of Prophetic Sevens (483 years) had to be fulfilled within 68
sets of solar sevens (476 years; 365.25x68x7 or 173,859 days) so as to produce an exact number
of 24-hour days but which left 21 of 173,880 Prophetic days unfulfilled! The 70th set of 365
Gregorian weeks (2555 days or 7x365) was cut short by 35 days (to encapsulate 2520 Prophetic
days or 7x360)!! These 35 days combine the 21 unfulfilled Prophetic days of the first 69 sets of
Prophetic Seven with the 14 uncounted Hebrew calendar days that bracket the 365 Gregorian
weeks as well as the 360 Prophetic weeks of the 70th set of seven!!!

Yet, at the same time, God will exactly fulfill 7 Lunar Years on the Hebrew calendar so that
its 2569 days encompass the 365x7 Gregorian days (2555)! The 35 unfulfilled solar (2555-2520)
days, plus the 14 extra Hebrew days (2569-2555), also allows fulfillment of the 70th Prophetic
Seven and leaves 46 of 49 days to precede and 3 days to follow the Prophetic countdown!!
Skillfully, the Almighty has left us with an UNKNOWN last day so Christ may appear either 3
or 4 solar days after the Prophetic count is terminated at the deaths of His two Prophets!!!

They "finish their task of demonstrating His Kingdom Power" on a Wednesday, Tishri 12 (day
#1260), and rise up to heaven on Saturday, Tishri 15 (day #1263); for Jesus must "raise up all
believers on the last day" to fulfill John 6:38-40,44,54! But "no one knows" whether Jesus will
appear on day #1263 or #1264 with all the saints to redeem Israel on Saturday...or on Sunday
during the Twilight Hour of Tishri 16!! That "day" of His Revelation not only launches a 1000-
Year Day of the Lord; but also executes the Wrath of God Almighty on the wicked and begins
Israel's Jubilee Celebration...and, on day #1335, sees their Millennial Temple dedicated at
Hanukkah!!!

Note: Daniel's day #1290 is the 2550th solar day after starting the countdown of the 70th "7"
and the 30th day after the 1260 day task of the two Prophets is finished! As part of the 365
Gregorian weeks, the 2555 days are cut short...first by five days so that the 1290 days fit into
the 43 thirty-day months of "time, times and half a time"; and 2nd by 30 days to make up the
35 unfulfilled days between 360 Prophetic weeks and 365 Gregorian weeks!! But the 1290 days
will also be cut short by 26 or 27 days depending on whether Christ appears with all the saints
to redeem Israel on their Saturday or at the beginning of their Sunday!!!
Mel Miller

 

[lastday]

Some Standing "HERE"

We know Christ doesn't lie therefore we know if we are honest that we have to look for a type of return which is not thousands of years into the future. (Well actually I did see one poster one time say he thinks those people are still alive out there some where living in disguise).

I don't know how anyone can be honest and try to get weasel their way around this verse.

This verse makes a mockery of the whole notion of futurism.

It's like a death blow to dispensationalism.

I know because I use to be a premil dispy--I can say it having been a member of the family most of my life.

When I realized the apostle where preterists I knew I had to change my theology to match theirs and not try to twist and torture theirs to match mine.

You would think people would be relieved they don't have to worry about the antichrist taking control of the world, the tribulation, etc but they seem to miss the excitement of it all. I guess it makes life less exciting for some--they miss the adrenalin rush it gives them.

They are addicted to it.

I enjoy a good dispy teacher as much as anybody. Even though I don't believe any of it now--it is still very entertaining stuff.

I'm glad I got to live before dispensationalism dies out and gets assigned to the dust bin of history. It has been a fun ride.

MY RESPONSE TO LOGOS:
When Jesus spoke of those standing "HERE". He was projecting His thots to the End of Time when He is about to come in glory and to THOSE standing (t)here who will survive until the last one who "must be killed has been killed"!

There can not be an END to Chronos Time nor Kairos Time until the last
Believer has been killed. THEN and then alone will Christ come to rescue
all who survive to the END!!

You assume Jesus was talking about those living at the time He spoke.
He clearly stated the time in question is when He is about to come (mellow) in glory with the angels to gather all the Saints to Himself...including those
who pierced Him...for every Believer who pierced Him will see Him coming or
be included among those who "come with Him". Matt.16:27-28; Rev.1:7

Mel Miller

 

[revmwc]

How did this discussion get veered into dating anything?

is is this another one of your tactics to skirt the issue when you run out of scriptural ammo to make your case Rev?

As far as dates go none of the books of the New Testament mention Christ’s prophecy about the destruction of the temple coming true and most scholars who approach this honestly agree there is no way the NT writers would have left that fact out if it had already happened. All of these trumped reasons you can concoct pale in comparison.

You can make the writing of Revelation last week if you want—you just can’t make a real convincing argument for it.

You still haven’t been able to explain, twist, or torture away the words of Christ that he was coming back soon and given the 2,000 years of failure of your position you surely realize in everyone’s eyes you will look foolish at some point. It will take longer in the eyes of some than others, but eventually 99% of the population will in their own time and own way reach the conclusion that you have misinterpreted the return of Christ and he actually came back in 70 AD. Just the way it is my friend.

You have failed to explain most of the scripture I have posted. But lets go back to the I come quickly or these must come to pass shortly.

2 Peter 3: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Again God's timetable is not ours. He sees a 1000 years as 1 day, in Daniel 70 weeks of days was 70 periods of 7 years. Teh last of which has yet to be fufilled, the fulfillment seen in the book of Revelation chapter 7 to chapter 19 the 7 years culminating with the return of Christ at His second advent.
1 day to the Lord is as a Thousand years and 1000 years as one day. You keep scoffing at the 1000 years and yet God said that he is not slack in His promises but is long suffering to mankind not willing that any should perish but all come to repentence. God is patient in allowing mankind to come to salvation, and to him 2000 years is nothing, actually to him a million years would be nothign since it all equals eternity to Him. Since 1 day is as a thousand years and a thousand years one day that means Christ will return shortly or quickly in God timetable not man's.

To say well shortly means in a few days or year or two in man's time makes very little sense. That would mean man Limits What God can do time wise. Limiting Him to human standards and ways not as an Omniscience, Omipotent and Omnipresent God who works on His time Table.

Logos go ahead and limit God to human things instead of spiritual things. I won't Limit God I will trust what He has revealed in His word by the Person of the Holy SPirit.

 

[revmwc]

I think the testimony of Christ’s soon return by Himself and the apostles will trump the Church fathers of 300 AD any day of the week.

The early church fathers were not inspired writers.

If you want to know what the abomination of desolation is then look at Luke 21:20

"And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh."

Christ himself tells us what the abomination of desolation is so we don’t have to speculate on it. You can argue whether his was referring to the Roman army or zealot armies leading up to the battle with Rome—but either way it is an army.

Obviously when Christ says this generation shall not pass till these things be fulfilled he is referring to his generation---he would have specified so if he meant another generation.

How could anyone miss that? Only by trying to turn it into something it isn’t.

Those two in the field compared to Noah that you try to turn into a rapture verse—that comparison is totally reversed.

In Noah day it was the one who got swept away by the flood that God’s judgment came down on—Noah and his family were the ones left behind.

This comparison exposes the rapture for the “fool’s errand” that it really is. It’s so laughable. I just wish Mel would give is another date for it.

The sword proceeding out of Christ’s mouth—I know I know you think there is a literal sword like his tongue that is coming out of his mouth like that painting we see all the time.

This is referring to the presence of Christ—it is the exact same thing referred to as the Logos in John chapter 1 and Genesis 1 when it says the spirit of God hovered over the deep.

It is the same as the Word of God goes out and accomplishes his purposes and not return to me empty in Isaiah 55:11

These are all different ways of expressing the presence of God, of Christ, of the Lord.

Thinking a sword will protrude out of his mouth—no wonder people then think they can turn the soon coming of Christ into something 2,000 years into the future and think it is still imminent.

Well people are still being saved today and fortunately they will keep right on being saved for billions of years into the future.

Fewer and fewer people are for his imminent return since Preterism is gaining ground every where—but this post is long enough I’ll create a second to deal with that.

Go back to Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
1290 days the Abomination will stand, God tells us exactly how long it would stand and that is 3 1/2 years.
Matthew 24: 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains

Again Christ says it would stand in the Holy place as Daniel prophisied.

Again the scripture speaks for itself, The Abomination Stands in the Holy Place Christ says and Daniel says for 3 1/2 years it will stand. Not the temple being destroyed.

Now let's examine the passage again about the generation, Matt24:
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Look again at verse 33 those who see these things, what things, the signs of the beginning of the end and the signs of the end. This would include those30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The generation that will pass away will see the sign of the Son of Man in Heaven coming in the clouds of heaven. That would be as seen in Revelation 19:
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

Christ at the second coming comes as conquering King and as He speaks the enemies are cut down by Christ speaking, the words of condemnation are the sword from His mouth.
As for Noah's day Noah and the eight were born up above the earth in the Ark protected by God while the destruction of the Earth took place, they were protected from going through the judgement just as the church has Christ promise to keep us from the time of tempation (the tribulation).

 

[thomas15]

Oh, I assumed I was talking with an adult. Take care young person. God Bless

mandym,

In post #49 I wrote basically the same thing. I felt bad about it at the time but it's a valid conclusion based on what I read by that poster.

Try to stick with the Scriptures and historical fact but it becomes a frustrating experience. It is basically one of several intrepritations on what Logos1 would call "time texts" and his whole theological world revolves around it.

One of his theological brethern put me on his ignore list. WOW, how mature. Not because I'm some sort of mean person but rather because I argue from the Scriptures and fact.

 

[michael-acts17:11]

Logos1, how does 2 Peter 3:10-13 fit your theology?


But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
(2Pe 3:10-13)