Faith Received

[JesusFan]

In Romans 10 Paul speaks of those who haven't heard saying, "How can they believe in whom they have not heard?" In this regard, those who haven't heard the gospel can't believe the gospel. This is true of those in John 6. Israel was being blinded (hardened) from the truth (John 12:39-41), and the message hadn't even been sent to the Gentiles yet (Acts 28:28).

So, its not because they were born "totally depraved" that they can't come to Jesus. It is because they (Israel) are being hardened in their rebellion. The exception is the remnant of Israel who have been reserved from the hardening process and chosen for noble purposes (i.e. apostleship). That is why Jesus in John 6 goes on to say, "65 He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." 66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him. 67 "You do not want to leave too, do you?" Jesus asked the Twelve."

So, the mistake Calvinists make when reading John 6 is to presume that Jesus' audience can't come to Christ because they are born Totally Depraved and non-elect, when in reality John 12:39-41 tells us exactly why they can't come:

39 For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere: 40 "He has blinded their eyes and deadened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn--and I would heal them."

This is what Paul is talking about in Romans 11 when he speaks of Israel being "cut off" and the Gentiles being "grafted in."

So you are not really than an Arminianist , as classically, they believe same way as cals do , that man as a result of the fall and born into sin, are both depraived and unable to come to Christ apart from God doing a work of grace on our behalf? that even IF we have the Gospel preached to us, without God enabling us, cannot respond in faith?

Bot cals/Arms affirm that as being true!

 

[Winman]

Yep. All I am looking for. No answer to my poll, just another personal insult naming me unintelligent. The only arminian to give a direct answer so far is skandelon.

I certainly answered you, I believe all men have the God given ability to believe God's word if they choose to do so.

But I also explained that no man can believe what he does not know.

I believe the Holy Spirit works through God's word in three ways, #1 it reveals the gospel of Jesus Christ to us, without this revelation no man could know or understand the gospel. #2 I believe God's word convicts us. This is a deeply personal conviction that makes us understand we have sinned against a holy God, but it also convicts us in that we feel the love Christ had for us in dying for our sins. These are words that pierce the hardest heart of stone. #3 When we are convicted of the Spirit and made wise to trust Christ, when we do trust or believe the Holy Spirit regenerates us, makes us spiritually alive.

But the faith we place in Christ is our own. We have to place OUR faith in Christ, God does not believe for us. How would God giving his own faith to himself be meaningful, how would it glorify him? No, when we freely place our faith in Christ, this glorifies God. Our faith has no power, but when we trust Christ he regenerates us, he alone has the power and ability to give life.

You would have to ignore dozens of verses that say man's faith is his own to accept your view.

 

[quantumfaith]

As do I, its just that sometimes widh that we could agree to discuss and disagree and NOT call each other out in little snid remarks and innudos and such!
That we could all agree to discuss freely, but realise that we are talking to/with 'family of God!"

Jesusfan, it is a response to a constant and consistent "onslaught" of "you can save yourself", and/or "you don't believe God is sovereign" (of which both are by products of theological system) Constant charges as those are snide. I believe it has been asked and answered.

1. No one around here believes that they can save themselves
2. Everyone around here believes that God is Sovereign.

At least as far as my feeble and finite mind can ascertain.

 

[Skandelon]

So you are not really than an Arminianist , as classically, they believe same way as cals do , that man as a result of the fall and born into sin, are both depraived and unable to come to Christ apart from God doing a work of grace on our behalf? that even IF we have the Gospel preached to us, without God enabling us, cannot respond in faith?

Bot cals/Arms affirm that as being true!

Not exactly. I explained this in the other thread, so for the sake of repetition I'll just refer you there...

 

[DHK]

Jesusfan, it is a response to a constant and consistent "onslaught" of "you can save yourself", and/or "you don't believe God is sovereign" (of which both are by products of theological system) Constant charges as those are snide. I believe it has been asked and answered.

1. No one around here believes that they can save themselves
2. Everyone around here believes that God is Sovereign.

At least as far as my feeble and finite mind can ascertain.

That is very true. I certainly believe the above two tenets.

 

[Winman]

So you are not really than an Arminianist , as classically, they believe same way as cals do , that man as a result of the fall and born into sin, are both depraived and unable to come to Christ apart from God doing a work of grace on our behalf? that even IF we have the Gospel preached to us, without God enabling us, cannot respond in faith?

Bot cals/Arms affirm that as being true!

JF, not to be offensive, but why do answers to your questions go in one ear and out the other? People repeatedly answer you, yet you never seem to GET IT.

I can't speak for others, but I have answered before that the word "enable" does not mean the same thing as "caused". God gives us the information we need to believe, you cannot believe what you do not know. This is why Paul asked how a man can believe in him of whom they have not heard.

What does this question imply? Does it imply men must be supernaturally regenerated to believe?

Or does it imply that man needs to hear of Christ to believe?

And then Paul directly says faith comes by hearing the word of God. Any magic here?

I could promise to send you a Super Bowl ticket if you will PM your address to me. Now you have two options completely within your own control. You can judge me honest and believe my offer, or you can judge me a liar and refuse to believe my offer. Believeing is completely within your own ability and control.

The offer I made enabled you to believe, you cannot believe what you have never heard. But my promise does not cause you to believe, whether you believe or not is completely in your own power.

Please don't keep asking the same questions over and over again, you have been answered many times. Quite frankly, I believe you perfectly understand the answers you have been given.

 

[JesusFan]

JF, not to be offensive, but why do answers to your questions go in one ear and out the other? People repeatedly answer you, yet you never seem to GET IT.

I can't speak for others, but I have answered before that the word "enable" does not mean the same thing as "caused". God gives us the information we need to believe, you cannot believe what you do not know. This is why Paul asked how a man can believe in him of whom they have not heard.

What does this question imply? Does it imply men must be supernaturally regenerated to believe?

Or does it imply that man needs to hear of Christ to believe?

And then Paul directly says faith comes by hearing the word of God. Any magic here?

I could promise to send you a Super Bowl ticket if you will PM your address to me. Now you have two options completely within your own control. You can judge me honest and believe my offer, or you can judge me a liar and refuse to believe my offer. Believeing is completely within your own ability and control.

The offer I made enabled you to believe, you cannot believe what you have never heard. But my promise does not cause you to believe, whether you believe or not is completely in your own power.

Please don't keep asking the same questions over and over again, you have been answered many times. Quite frankly, I believe you perfectly understand the answers you have been given.

problem is that unless i am reading the views of both cals/arms wrongly...

the classic arm position is that man is born depraived and cannot come to God and respond by faith UNLESS God so graces them/enables them...

IF God sat on the sidelines and JUST had Gospel preached to them...

Both Cals/Arms say that they will not place saving faith in Christ by own efforts...

Arms say God grants grace sufficient to ALL to hear and believe in jesus IF they freely chose such

cals say God grants specific grace, and they will come to faith in Christ!

So aperson who holds that we can respond by faith JUST because of hearing the Gospel God did nothing else in them, would not be either cal/Arm?

 

[preacher4truth]

True. So, in the future, with me at least, assume the best tone possible, and I'll do the same for you... ok?


As you know, this is not an AG board, so their views wouldn't likely be representative of our views on this subject. I can't imagine any theologian worth his salt who didn't affirm that all good things (including our ability to believe upon Him) come from God. Thus, I think our real point of contention centers more around the effectuality of God's calling unto salvation.

I will certainly give to you the benefit of the doubt, I can respect that.

Thanks for being Christian about it.

I am certain you are aware that AG embraces Arminianism, correct? To further your premise that all Armininans believe faith a gift would have to speak for each and every AG church and others who are Arminian in belief.

I agree they wouldn't be worth their salt for not affirming this, that God grants our belief. But not everyone who is Arminian is a theologian either. Therefore this leaves room for some who say they are to not then believe faith to be a gift. I think to believe this way destroys, if you will, which is impossible, the Sovereignty of God. Is it allowable for me to agree with you on this? I don't want to offend, just agreeing about your quote that I don't think they are worth their salt, either, in this.

AG churches here have variables of belief. Graduate school students here have personally stated they don't believe God grants faith, but that its our "choice." Whether it is that they do not understand, or just don't accept it by understanding what classic Arminianism teaches, and reject it, is yet another angle. Some place experience above the Word, most interpret via a topical system, rather than through a systematic theology.

This is why I included Armininans in the OP. It was not a representation of you, nor of all who are Arminian in theology. I apologize to offend you over that with no buts.

 

[Skandelon]

I will certainly give to you the benefit of the doubt, I can respect that.

Thanks for being Christian about it.

I am certain you are aware that AG embraces Arminianism, correct? To further your premise that all Armininans believe faith a gift would have to speak for each and every AG church and others who are Arminian in belief.

I never claimed to speak for "every AG church" or even "every Arminian." I simply showed that Arminius himself didn't believe what you indicated, nor do any Arminian scholars I'm aware of, which contradicts your OP and subsequent replies regarding what you claim "most Arminians" believe. I've yet to see one Christian scholar (AG, Baptist, Arminian or otherwise) who denies that faith comes from God. They may deny that faith is effectually applied through a regenerative work of the HS, but I can't imagine anyone arguing that faith doesn't come through hearing God's words.

This is why I included Armininans in the OP. It was not a representation of you, nor of all who are Arminian in theology. I apologize to offend you over that with no buts.

I understand your intent now. I just didn't want others to be mislead regarding what I and others actually believe about the origin of our faith. I hope that helps.

 

[preacher4truth]

Jesusfan, it is a response to a constant and consistent "onslaught" of "you can save yourself", and/or "you don't believe God is sovereign" (of which both are by products of theological system) Constant charges as those are snide. I believe it has been asked and answered.

1. No one around here believes that they can save themselves
2. Everyone around here believes that God is Sovereign.

At least as far as my feeble and finite mind can ascertain.

Some have shared with me the exact opposite on here, that they do believe they maintain salvation. In fact, that if we don not keep our sins confessed up, we can and will lose salvation. And this is in a Baptist forum from a baptist.

As far as Sovereignty, to state everyone around here believes it is not a complete thought nor totally accurate, and leaves room for subjectivity, and some beliefs, though they would argue "God Sovereign" actually deny this by statements and views upon it.

We have to define terms.

I think the problem lies in the fine Biblical points of God's Sovereignty, such as, does He control the outcome of all things? I believe the Scriptures say He does clearly. I don't believe for one second that He does not control all things, even the thoughts and decisons of man, but that since He does, he grants to those whom He wills to grant salvation.

Who reserved 7000 who bowed not their knee? He did. He reserved them. Could He have reserved every one of them? Could He have pinched all their heads off and not reserved one? Certainly. All of this is under His power, not mans "choice."

Now, that to me represents God in His Sovereignty. To diminish that and say He does not do thus and so, man does by his choice, is to suggest man thwarts Gods divine decree and purpose. So who then is Sovereign now? Man?

Isaiah 46:9-10 describes Gods Glory in that all His purposes shall be accomplished. And He has purposed everything that comes to pass. THAT is Sovereignty.

Job declares none of His purpose shall be thwarted. Job 42:2

Psalm 115:3, Our God is in heaven and He does all that He pleases.

The Lord brings the counsel of nations to nothing; he frustrates the plans of the peoples. The counsel of the LORD stands forever, the plans of His heart to all generations. Psalm 33:10-11- Where is mans free will here? It's not there.

So in my understanding of theology, and Sovereignty, God does as He wills to do, he overthrows mans free will, as in the above verse.

Now, is God still Sovereign to all who say that He does not do these things?

 

[preacher4truth]

I never claimed to speak for "every AG church" or even "every Arminian." I simply showed that Arminius himself didn't believe what you indicated, nor do any Arminian scholars I'm aware of, which contradicts your OP and subsequent replies regarding what you claim "most Arminians" believe. I've yet to see one Christian scholar (AG, Baptist, Arminian or otherwise) who denies that faith comes from God. They may deny that faith is effectually applied through a regenerative work of the HS, but I can't imagine anyone arguing that faith doesn't come through hearing God's words.


I understand your intent now. I just didn't want others to be mislead regarding what I and others actually believe about the origin of our faith. I hope that helps.

Agreed. When we are speaking of scholars, and theologians, I would tend to agree that they believe faith a gift. Laymen and some in here that are Armininan, or similar? Not so much.

 

[Skandelon]

IF God sat on the sidelines and JUST had Gospel preached to them...

I think this statement reveals the source of your confusion.

You seem to put the Gospel on a very low standing.

Who produced the Gospel? Who preserved the Gospel? Who inspired the Gospel? Who carries the Gospel today? Who compels men today to continue to preach the Gospel?

The Gospel IS the power of God unto salvation. The gospel is God's words given to man...the very words of God.

It would be IMPOSSIBLE for God to "sit on the sidelines" while the Gospel is being preached, because God is actively apart of every thing dealing with the inspiration, proclamation, dispersion and preservation of the Gospel. To claim otherwise is to make the Gospel a work of man, rather than a divine, powerful work of God Himself!

 

[preacher4truth]

You would have to ignore dozens of verses that say man's faith is his own to accept your view.

Obviously Winman, you are misrepresenting my belief here. That is the exact opposite of what I have been saying and what I said in the OP.

 

[Skandelon]

Agreed. When we are speaking of scholars, and theologians, I would tend to agree that they believe faith a gift. Laymen and some in here that are Armininan, or similar? Not so much.

You say that, but I find it interesting that not one person as chosen the replies in your poll reflecting that (answers 2,3,4 and 6).

Could it be that you may have misunderstood what some have argued regarding the origin and nature of faith? Maybe they were saying that while God grants man the ability to believe some may choose to "trade the truth of God for a lie" and grown calloused and defiled in their rebellion?

 

[JesusFan]

I think this statement reveals the source of your confusion.

You seem to put the Gospel on a very low standing.

Who produced the Gospel? Who preserved the Gospel? Who inspired the Gospel? Who carries the Gospel today? Who compels men today to continue to preach the Gospel?

The Gospel IS the power of God unto salvation. The gospel is God's words given to man...the very words of God.

It would be IMPOSSIBLE for God to "sit on the sidelines" while the Gospel is being preached, because God is actively apart of every thing dealing with the inspiration, proclamation, dispersion and preservation of the Gospel. To claim otherwise is to make the Gospel a work of man, rather than a divine, powerful work of God Himself!

it is the Holy Spirit and HIM alone who can convict/grant repentance/ turn one to God etc...

Again, the message of the Gospel does transform lives, in that Jesus is spoken of, and the person who is saved places faith in him, but apart from the active work of the Spirit to enable/allow one to respond to Gospel...

it has power indeed, but dead men cannot receive it, you can preach it ina cementary and though it has power, not one will get saved!

Thin we BOTH affirm the power and what the Gospel is BUT you seem to have a higher opinion of just how we are standing before God than I do, as Man in my view cannot place faith in Christt unless God provides the work of grace apart from the Gospel message, and THEN the Gospel can do its appointed work!

 

[preacher4truth]

You say that, but I find it interesting that not one person as chosen the replies in your poll reflecting that (answers 2,3,4 and 6).

Could it be that you may have misunderstood what some have argued regarding the origin and nature of faith? Maybe they were saying that while God grants man the ability to believe some may choose to "trade the truth of God for a lie" and grown calloused and defiled in their rebellion?

That is correct theology that you give about mans heart and hardening.

That is certainly possible brother. But, we do have one on here (in this thread) who claims God does not give faith to unbelievers as a gift of grace.

That is why I asked said to please then vote. Some comment but haven't voted, so the poll voting isn't an exact model of all on this thread.

 

[JesusFan]

That is correct theology that you give about mans heart and hardening.

That is certainly possible brother. But, we do have one on here (in this thread) who claims God does not give faith to unbelievers as a gift of grace.

That is why I asked said to please then vote. Some comment but haven't voted, so the poll voting isn't an exact model of all on this thread.

So again...
To those who hold to man being able to respond in kind to message by hearing it ALONE
(Not you, but those replying to you!)
Why work does the Holy Spirit do again? Doesn't He quicken/convict/grant repentance/regenerate etc by His soverign will, as he has to enable one to even be able to respond in faith ?

 

[Skandelon]

it is the Holy Spirit and HIM alone who can convict/grant repentance/ turn one to God etc...

We agree on this point. But HOW does God do this? What means has he appointed to bring conviction, grant repentance and turn one to God for salvation?

I'll let Paul answer, "The gospel is the power of God unto salvation."

Again, the message of the Gospel does transform lives, in that Jesus is spoken of, and the person who is saved places faith in him, but apart from the active work of the Spirit to enable/allow one to respond to Gospel...

This implies, without cause or biblical support, that the Gospel is not an "active work of the Spirit" by which one may be enabled/allowed to respond.

it has power indeed, but dead men cannot receive it, you can preach it ina cementary and though it has power, not one will get saved!

Men are enslaved, but doesn't the Bible teach that the truth may set you free?

Men are dead, but doesn't the bible teach that the WORD of God may bring life?

Men are enemies, but doesn't the bible teach that the gospel is God's appeal to the world to be reconciled to Him?

Without God we are powerless to be saved, but doesn't the bible teach that the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation?

Thin we BOTH affirm the power and what the Gospel is BUT you seem to have a higher opinion of just how we are standing before God than i do

Do you really affirm the power of the gospel when in your view it has NO POWER WHATSOEVER for most of humanity? In my view it has power to accomplish the purpose for which it was sent (to bring conviction, to grant repentance, to appeal for whosoever to be reconciled to God), but in your view it only has power to inform those who have already been affected by another more powerful calling. So, the power in your view is not really the gospel, it is the addition "effectual calling" of God which come prior to the Gospel.

 

[DHK]

I think the problem lies in the fine Biblical points of God's Sovereignty, such as, does He control the outcome of all things? I believe the Scriptures say He does clearly. I don't believe for one second that He does not control all things, even the thoughts and decisons of man, but that since He does, he grants to those whom He wills to grant salvation.

This of course is utter nonsense and has no Scriptural support.
God is sovereign, but you wrongly define sovereignty. Never does the Bible describe God as a bully, a mind-controlling hypnotist, a maker of robots (which in your theology we all are). You have a sad, sad view of God.

God is love. He desires to have a relationship with his children. He desires his children to fellowship with Him. Read 1John chapter one and Ephesians chapter one. He knows our thoughts, but he didn't program us. Our thoughts are of our own choosing. He simply knows ahead of time what thoughts we will choose to make.

Your statements make no sense in the light of such commands as:

Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. (Philippians 4:8)
--Why the command to "think on these things" if God already put the thoughts in my mind to think on. I shouldn't have to worry about it. Why hasn't God put all good thoughts in my mind. According to your theology every evil thought I may have it is God's fault and therefore God that is sinning. You are attributing sin to God.

Let this mind be in you which is also in Christ Jesus.
--not necessary if God already controls my thoughts.

Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; (2 Corinthians 10:5)
--Not necessary if God controls my thoughts.
--What is right? You or the Bible?
I go with the Bible.

 

[freeatlast]

1. I have never believed that, and in fact believe it is heresy. Don't accuse me of that. Man cannot come to God on his own merit. Salvation is 100% of God and God alone.

2. Faith is not "merit." In other words faith is not a work. Almost all will agree with me here that faith cannot be defined as a work, and therefore to come to Christ by faith is not salvation by merit by works. BTW, I really resent your accusation.

3. No one here has given me one verse that says that God gives faith to the unbeliever! If you can't produce the evidence why should I believe you?

Thanks, perhaps now the allegations of "you saving yourself", or "you don't believe that God is sovereign" et al. will subside.......but I think not. I understand you DHK and appreciate your "stubborness".

Faith is a work.
1Thess 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father
2thess 1:11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of [this] calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of [his] goodness, and the work of faith with power: