Faith received part deux

[preacher4truth]

Yea, and apparently skandelon did too.

Well, what you said was quite clear. Not hard to miss at all.

 

[HankD]

For the sake of the debate and without taking sides here is a comment about "your faith has made you whole".

"your faith" does not necessarily mean that this faith has originated in you but could mean that it is yours by right of possession as a gift.

e.g. Children refer to things that they possess as ... "my shoes", "my coat", etc, etc,
and we as their parents refer to them as "your shoes", "your coat", however they did not work for them or earn them but were given to them by their parents , the originator of these entities.

HankD

 

[webdog]

But the entire point remains if this gift is part of God's creating humanity...or it is another kind of gift on top of creation, it is still US who have faith, not God. In light of this fact it makes no sense for Christ to marvel at the faith of some and not others or to scold those with little faith if these were nebulous gifts given to a select group.

 

[quantumfaith]

But the entire point remains if this gift is part of God's creating humanity...or it is another kind of gift on top of creation, it is still US who have faith, not God. In light of this fact it makes no sense for Christ to marvel at the faith of some and not others or to scold those with little faith if these were nebulous gifts given to a select group.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[JesusFan]

We were discussing Adam on a personal level, not the consequences of the Fall as they pertain to the human race. We need to keep one separate from the other so that we can talk about one issue at a time. No need to confuse the two. The fact is that Adam sinned. In the day that Adam would sin, he would die. He died (spiritually). After he died spiritually he continued to talk on a spiritual plane to God. How is that possible. That was my question to P4T, which he was unable to answer. I believe the answer is simple. It is in the definition of death, which many Calvinists wrongly define.

The thing is though Adam after he had sinned was then in SAME spiritual state that we are found in... Dead in sin and transgressions bfore God...

Again, that death relates to us being unable to have a "real" relationship with the Lord, as we are physically alive, but in our spirits...
can talk to God, listen, etc BUT unable to receive the Lord by faith,a s we just do not have that capacity within us until He intiates it to us...
His work is to enable usto be able to respond in saving fath, ours to hear and belive!

As to your previous post concerning Satan, you are comparing apples to oranges. Satan is a spirit-being who was cast out of heaven because of his pride and rebellion against God. He will never again be reconciled to God. There is absolutely no chance of that. He wages a war against God though he knows that he cannot win. We do not understand everything about the spirit world, the spirit realm. We do know that even though Satan is a fallen creature he still in some way has access to some outer court of heaven as is indicated by Job chapter one. He can communicate with God. But he is a spirit not a man. He cannot be compared to man that is need of reconciliation to God through the blood of the lamb--a completely different story that even the angels of heaven desire to look into, for they don't completely understand salvation.

same result though in the sense sin brough t a 'spritual death" to both satan and Adam God chose to redeem Adam though from it....

 

[DHK]

same result though in the sense sin brough t a 'spritual death" to both satan and Adam God chose to redeem Adam though from it....

It is not the same thing. You have to learn how to distinguish. God deals with individuals. He dealt with Adam as an individual, and later the consequence was the human race.
He dealt with Abraham as an individual. This is clearly seen at the beginning of Romans ch.4. Paul clearly shows how he became a believer, how righteousness was imputed to him by faith.
The result of Abraham's faith in God would be that he would be a father of many nations, but especially the nation of Israel. First God dealt with him as a person, and then he became the father of a nation.
God dealt first with Moses on a personal level. He moulded and shaped his life for 80 years preparing him to lead Israel out of Egypt. Once he led them to Sinai, he through Jehovah, formed Israel into a theocracy under God.

Thus our conversation centered around Adam and his relationship with God, not the Fall, per se.
It had nothing to do with Satan either. Satan was unredeemable. He has forever pitted himself in a war against God. This has nothing to do with the salvation of mankind and mankind's relationship with God. It is a red herring.

So back to the real problem at hand. I think by now "death" has been properly defined.
But here is the scenario:
God gave Adam a command, and he said if he disobeyed that command, that in they day he disobeyed he would die.
Adam disobeyed and in that day he died.
Adam was dead, not physically, but in some way dead.
But being dead, he continued to talk, to carry on a conversation with God. That conversation takes up most of Genesis chapter 3. It is both audibly and of course spiritual. You cannot talk with God and not have a spiritual conversation. That is what talking with God is (spiritual conversation).

In what way was Adam dead then?
How do you define dead in this context?

 

[JesusFan]

It is not the same thing. You have to learn how to distinguish. God deals with individuals. He dealt with Adam as an individual, and later the consequence was the human race.
He dealt with Abraham as an individual. This is clearly seen at the beginning of Romans ch.4. Paul clearly shows how he became a believer, how righteousness was imputed to him by faith.
The result of Abraham's faith in God would be that he would be a father of many nations, but especially the nation of Israel. First God dealt with him as a person, and then he became the father of a nation.
God dealt first with Moses on a personal level. He moulded and shaped his life for 80 years preparing him to lead Israel out of Egypt. Once he led them to Sinai, he through Jehovah, formed Israel into a theocracy under God.

Thus our conversation centered around Adam and his relationship with God, not the Fall, per se.
It had nothing to do with Satan either. Satan was unredeemable. He has forever pitted himself in a war against God. This has nothing to do with the salvation of mankind and mankind's relationship with God. It is a red herring.

So back to the real problem at hand. I think by now "death" has been properly defined.
But here is the scenario:
God gave Adam a command, and he said if he disobeyed that command, that in they day he disobeyed he would die.
Adam disobeyed and in that day he died.
Adam was dead, not physically, but in some way dead.
But being dead, he continued to talk, to carry on a conversation with God. That conversation takes up most of Genesis chapter 3. It is both audibly and of course spiritual. You cannot talk with God and not have a spiritual conversation. That is what talking with God is (spiritual conversation).

In what way was Adam dead then?
How do you define dead in this context?

Dead in the sense that in himself there was no means/way that Adam, or us for that matter, can hear the Gospel message and have it that we by ourselves can respond by faith to it...

We can talk to God, hear from God, read the bible etc

just cannot place saving faith In jesus on our own, no longer have that capability...

Adam had the capability to respond to God, once he sinned, fall it... changed EVERYTHING between God and us!

 

[DHK]

Dead in the sense that in himself there was no means/way that Adam, or us for that matter, can hear the Gospel message and have it that we by ourselves can respond by faith to it...

We can talk to God, hear from God, read the bible etc

just cannot place saving faith In jesus on our own, no longer have that capability...

Adam had the capability to respond to God, once he sinned, fall it... changed EVERYTHING between God and us!

Adam did have the capability. This very fact destroys your definition, if not your entire theology. Your theology seems to be built on a false premise. God was reaching out to Adam. Every question that God asked God knew the answer to it. They why ask it? It was a question designed to draw Adam to a place of repentance. In other words he was capable of responding to God; capable of coming to God; capable of communicating to God, as he did. The entire account in Genesis 3 destroys what you just said:

Dead in the sense that in himself there was no means/way that Adam, or us for that matter, can hear the Gospel message and have it that we by ourselves can respond by faith to it...

But Adam did respond. He responded on his own. He continued, after he sinned to talk with God. For him the gospel was speaking to God and coming to a place of reconciliation.
It would be comparable to what God said to Isaiah:

Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. (Isaiah 1:18)

God led him to that place of repentance. Each step of the way God led him. Each step of the way Adam responded in his "dead" condition. Thus your definition of "dead" is dead out to lunch.

 

[JesusFan]

Adam did have the capability. This very fact destroys your definition, if not your entire theology. Your theology seems to be built on a false premise. God was reaching out to Adam. Every question that God asked God knew the answer to it. They why ask it? It was a question designed to draw Adam to a place of repentance. In other words he was capable of responding to God; capable of coming to God; capable of communicating to God, as he did. The entire account in Genesis 3 destroys what you just said:
But Adam did respond. He responded on his own. He continued, after he sinned to talk with God. For him the gospel was speaking to God and coming to a place of reconciliation.
It would be comparable to what God said to Isaiah:

Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. (Isaiah 1:18)

God led him to that place of repentance. Each step of the way God led him. Each step of the way Adam responded in his "dead" condition. Thus your definition of "dead" is dead out to lunch.

except that the Bible does NOT contridict itself!

Apsotle paul said that we are indeed dead in ourselves, NO good thing lives in us, we dont seek God, we must have God seek and find us...

Again, you do not seem to grasp that Adam no longer was in his original state before God, and that we are all like him now...

dead to being able to come to God in ourselves...
We can hear the message, read the Bible, but in ourselves nothing there to be able to respond in faith to it, we are dead to being affected, until God allows us to have that capability once again!

 

[preacher4truth]

except that the Bible does NOT contridict itself!

Apsotle paul said that we are indeed dead in ourselves, NO good thing lives in us, we dont seek God, we must have God seek and find us...

Again, you do not seem to grasp that Adam no longer was in his original state before God, and that we are all like him now...

dead to being able to come to God in ourselves...
We can hear the message, read the Bible, but in ourselves nothing there to be able to respond in faith to it, we are dead to being affected, until God allows us to have that capability once again!

I can name only one personality in Scripture that wants us to believe we are still capable, that we really aren't "dead," and really by this, it is insinuated we aren't that bad off. Let's say he is not a very good personality.

 

[DHK]

except that the Bible does NOT contridict itself!

You are right the Bible does not contradict itself. So where does the confusion lie?

Apsotle paul said that we are indeed dead in ourselves, NO good thing lives in us, we dont seek God, we must have God seek and find us...

Where did that passage of Scripture originate from and why was Paul using it?

Again, you do not seem to grasp that Adam no longer was in his original state before God, and that we are all like him now...

NO, this is what you fail to grasp. Adam was no longer in his original state. This is true. The conundrum that you face is, how can a man, now in a sinful state, communicate so freely with God. He is spiritually dead and yet communicates both audibly and spiritually with God. Those facts speak for themselves and you have no answer for them. Why haven't you answered this yet?

dead to being able to come to God in ourselnes...

And this means what? What does "dead" mean?

We can hear the message, read the Bible, but in ourselves nothing there to be able to respond in faith to it, we are dead to being affected, until God allows us to have that capability once again!

That is not what happened with Adam is it? Adam continued to converse with God, and was affected by it. BTW, an unsaved person can respond in faith. That is the only way that he can respond. In fact he is commanded to respond in faith. Salvation is by faith and faith alone. If he doesn't respond by faith he cannot be saved. (Faith is not a work.)

 

[psalms109:31]

Romans 7:
18For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord.


Romans 8:3
For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh,4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit

John 6:63
The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.

1 Peter 1:23
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

 

[JesusFan]

You are right the Bible does not contradict itself. So where does the confusion lie?

Where did that passage of Scripture originate from and why was Paul using it?

NO, this is what you fail to grasp. Adam was no longer in his original state. This is true. The conundrum that you face is, how can a man, now in a sinful state, communicate so freely with God. He is spiritually dead and yet communicates both audibly and spiritually with God. Those facts speak for themselves and you have no answer for them. Why haven't you answered this yet?

I have answered this repeatablely, but you are not "getting it"

We can talk to God, hear Him, read the bible etc but we do NOT have the capability within us to freely respond to the offer of salvation in Christ until the Lord enables us to be in a state able to freely respond...

And this means what? What does "dead" mean?

Again....

means that within oursleves, apart from God, unable to react to his spefic revelation of salvation offfered to us in jesus Christ!

That is not what happened with Adam is it? Adam continued to converse with God, and was affected by it. BTW, an unsaved person can respond in faith. That is the only way that he can respond. In fact he is commanded to respond in faith. Salvation is by faith and faith alone. If he doesn't respond by faith he cannot be saved. (Faith is not a work.)

God requires us to respond to the offer of salvation in jesus Chrsit, trouble is that in ourselves, we cannot provide that, so he in his elective mercy and grace allows us to do such!

 

[HankD]

But the entire point remains if this gift is part of God's creating humanity...or it is another kind of gift on top of creation, it is still US who have faith, not God. In light of this fact it makes no sense for Christ to marvel at the faith of some and not others or to scold those with little faith if these were nebulous gifts given to a select group.

Yes, that does make sense.

HankD

 

[preacher4truth]

Yes, that does make sense.

HankD

Making sense of course doesn't make it truth. Too many on here depent upon reason too much, saying things in rejecting truth such as "this is against reason." God doesn't always work within our reason, and when He doesn't it would be wise not to charge it this way.

Naming gifts of grace "nebulous" is insulting them. Saying that He giving gifts of faith seems nebulous is another matter.

Lean not on our own understanding.

- Peace

 

[DHK]

Making sense of course doesn't make it truth. Too many on here depent upon reason too much, saying things in rejecting truth such as "this is against reason." God doesn't always work within our reason, and when He doesn't it would be wise not to charge it this way.

Naming gifts of grace "nebulous" is insulting them. Saying that He giving gifts of faith seems nebulous is another matter.

Lean not on our own understanding.

- Peace

"Gifts of grace". That is exactly what the Catholics believe in, except they call them "sacraments."

 

[webdog]

God doesn't work by reason?

Fill in the blank...

"Let us reason together says the ____"

*hint...it's in my sig

 

[HankD]

Making sense of course doesn't make it truth. Too many on here depent upon reason too much, saying things in rejecting truth such as "this is against reason." God doesn't always work within our reason, and when He doesn't it would be wise not to charge it this way.

Naming gifts of grace "nebulous" is insulting them. Saying that He giving gifts of faith seems nebulous is another matter.

Lean not on our own understanding.

- Peace

I was being honest.

Nebulous? when did I say that?

Personally I'll accept what Jesus says at face value and admit I don't understand how to integrate it with God's absolute sovereignty or resolve perceived conflicts with other theological venues.

I don't think Jesus was putting on an act when He was amazed or marveled at people's faith or when He scolded some for little faith and others for great faith.

We are not created as automatons and God does not treat us as robots but calls us to reason with Him:

Isaiah 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

Everything about Himself makes sense to God.

If we don't understand, it is our problem not God's.

Ecclesiastes 3:11 He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also He has put eternity in their hearts, except that no one can find out the work that God does from beginning to end.​

So, I admit and agree with God's word that there are many things I can not find out that God does in eternity.​

However, I repeat what I said with one little addendum - what webdog said makes sense to me.​

HankD​

 

[quantumfaith]

I was being honest.

Nebulous? when did I say that?

Personally I'll accept what Jesus says at face value and admit I don't understand how to integrate it with God's absolute sovereignty or resolve perceived conflicts with other theological venues.

I don't think Jesus was putting on an act when He was amazed or marveled at people's faith or when He scolded some for little faith and others for great faith.

We are not created as automatons and God does not treat us as robots but calls us to reason with Him:

Isaiah 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

Everything about Himself makes sense to God.

If we don't understand, it is our problem not God's.

Ecclesiastes 3:11 He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also He has put eternity in their hearts, except that no one can find out the work that God does from beginning to end.​

So, I admit and agree with God's word that there are many things I can not find out that God does in eternity.​

However, I repeat what I said with one little addendum - what webdog said makes sense to me.​

HankD​

Great Post!!!! :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[DHK]

God requires us to respond to the offer of salvation in jesus Chrsit, trouble is that in ourselves, we cannot provide that, so he in his elective mercy and grace allows us to do such!

What has this to do with my post about Adam. Adam sinned. Adam "died." Adam continued to talk with God. How could a "dead person" talk with God? The solution is in the definition of "dead," which most Calvinists have not defined correctly and thus a wrong theology ensues.