How Calvin helped create Unitarianism

[DHK]

From post 109 :"Nazaroo may be right about them ascribing to Unitarianism." (July 1,2011)

Key words: may be. I didn't say he is. I don't count out the possibility that he could have ended up that way in the latter years of his life. People change: some for good some for bad. Depending on your perspective what happened with Tertullian. What did he believe early on, and what did he believe later in life when he became a Montanist?

I was being highly accurate.

No, if you were accurate you could have quoted me.

No,he was a conservative Anglican.Those were his peers. You have been reading his commentary on the Gospel of John and you still are pushing his supposed liberalism?

Then why does every source I have read say otherwise, even the encyclopedias and dictionaries that are not even evangelical. Again, people change with time. Because he was evangelical during one part of his life doesn't mean that he was like that all the way through.

I have read snatches here and there.In his earlier works he was a very concervative Calvinist. I remember John Gerstner saying that C.P. could have been the next B.B.Warfield. But then,he began sliding not just toward semi-Pelagianism --but outright Pelagianism, Open Theism and the works.

But what is your point DHK? Are you saying that Westcott started off liberal and then became conservative or vice-versa? He remained consistent in his theology.

I fail to see any connection with Westcott and Pinnock.

Same point I have been making above. Westcott wasn't perfect. There is plenty of evidence out there that he was a liberal. Why would you deny that just because a couple of his books are not? Why not consider all the evidence and piece it all together?

He's TR only and KJV only. We have had this discussion before. He's not as extreme as Ruckman but he's certainly KJVO. Look at his quotes from the men he admires --Cloud,Waite,Fuller,Wilkinson etc. That's the kind of company he keeps. (And yes,I know the last two are dead. It's a metaphoric language.)

Read his book again, if you haven't already. He denies being KJVO. He says that that camp is full of error. If he were posting on this board he would put himself in the KJV preferred camp. Don't mislabel him if you don't know what he really believes.

Sorenson says that modern Bible versions come from apostate Greek texts.

Maybe they do. You should look into that.

D.H.S. says that :"One stream of Bibles has always been associated with belief and the other has largely been connected with apostasy." (Touch Not the Unclean Thing -p.44)

Did you ever wonder how "Majority Text", and "Received Text" got their names?

He says that "The charge that Erasmus was a Catholic was hollow." Ha,ha,ha!

It probably was.

David Sorenson is a grad of Pensacola Theological Seminary ! Doesn't that fact alone clue you in?

And Ruckman and Billy Graham both went to BJU. So what?

 

[Nazaroo]

Sorenson drinks PepsiCola?

 

[Rippon]

Key words: may be. I didn't say he is. I don't count out the possibility that he could have ended up that way in the latter years of his life. People change: some for good some for bad. Depending on your perspective what happened with Tertullian. What did he believe early on, and what did he believe later in life when he became a Montanist?

More negative specualtion on your part. But you are getting away from the point. You said that they may have subscribed to Unitarianism. That is utter bunk --just from the imagination of Naz. You have absolutely no evidence that Westcott was a Unitarian --own up.

No, if you were accurate you could have quoted me.

What's with you? I quoted you exactly. What is your problem?

Again, people change with time. Because he was evangelical during one part of his life doesn't mean that he was like that all the way through.

Again,you are engaging in pure, unsubstantiated, negative speculation. You can't lay a finger on anything to pin him with.

Westcott wasn't perfect. There is plenty of evidence out there that he was a liberal. Why would you deny that just because a couple of his books are not? Why not consider all the evidence and piece it all together?

I'd say that "a couple of his books" would convince a normal Christian.

Read his book again, if you haven't already. He denies being KJVO. He says that that camp is full of error. If he were posting on this board he would put himself in the KJV preferred camp. Don't mislabel him if you don't know what he really believes.

Norman Geisler calls himself a moderate Calvinist. He's anything but that.

Sorenson can deny his KJVO status --but yet he is without a doubt. Ever heard of Doug Kutilek?

It probably was.

Perhaps you need to crack open a real Church History book every now and then. The next thing you know you'll be claiming Erasmus was basically an IFB! LOL!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

More negative specualtion on your part. But you are getting away from the point. You said that they may have subscribed to Unitarianism. That is utter bunk --just from the imaigination of Naz. You have absolutely no evidence that Westcott was a Unitarian --own up.


What's with you? I quoted you exactly. What is your problem?



Again,you are engaging in pure, unsubstantiated, negative speculation. You can't lay a finger on anything to pin him with.



I'd say that "a couple of his books" would convince a normal Christian.



Norman Geisler calls himself a moderate Calvinist. He's anything but that.

Sorenson can deny his KJVO status --but yet he is without a doubt. Ever heard of Doug Kutilek?



Perhaps you need to crack open a real Church History book every now and then. The next thing you know you'll be claiming Erasmus was basically an IFB! LOL!

you Go Rippon....dont call you RIP for notin! LOL Go Rippon, Go Rippon, Go Rippon:smilewinkgrin:

 

[Rippon]

you Go Rippon....dont call you RIP for notin! LOL Go Rippon, Go Rippon, Go Rippon:smilewinkgrin:

I'm rip-roaring!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I'm rip-roaring!

LOL....well now......nope, not going there LOL

 

[Rippon]

Listen Up and Respond

Unblock your ears,put your specs on --listen and read. Please provide documentation which deals with Hort's alleged involvement with the occult. I don't want to put things in bold print --do you now understand with this third attempt of mine?

For crying out loud DHK --address this once and for all. You do specialize in ignoring the obvious.

This makes the 5th time I have made the request of DHK to support his contention --he needs to demonstrate his claim with some solid evidence.

Isn't it strange that he misses my repeated posts to backup his assertions?

 

[Rippon]

Most of them do tell about Hort's involvement with the occult,

This is from your post #128.

Give documentation to buttress your charge.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

But I think once you quit hearing "sir" and "ma'am," the rest is soon to foller.

 

[DHK]

This is from your post #128.

Give documentation to buttress your charge.

What documentation is there to give. I made a statement as a result of my own search which you can do to verify the same results. I did a search on "B.F. Westcott" As with any search hundreds of links (URL's) showed up. I glanced through them. Here is my statement of which you think needs documentation.

Most of them do tell about Hort's involvement with the occult,

That does not need any documentation. I told you what I observed when I did a search. If you don't believe me repeat the search yourself.

 

[Rippon]

Finally ...

What documentation is there to give.

There you go. There is no documentation that you can offer --only gossip spread by KJVO extremists like Riplinger,Waite and Sorenson.

You really need to evidence some discernment when it comes this junk DHK. Just because a lot of websites report this and that --without actual proof --you should not be passing it on. You sound rather naive.

 

[DHK]

There you go. There is no documentation that you can offer --only gossip spread by KJVO extremists like Riplinger,Waite and Sorenson.

You really need to evidence some discernment when it comes this junk DHK. Just because a lot of websites report this and that --without actual proof --you should not be passing it on. You sound rather naive.

Most of the websites I saw connected Hort with the occult.

This is an observation. It is what I saw.
I am not accusing anyone of anything. It is you that are falsely accusing me and I resent the false accusations. Perhaps go back to school and learn how to read.
I did not gossip; I posted what I observed.
I did not refer to any KJVO extremists.
I did not refer to any of the names you posted.

You need to calm down, perhaps take a sedative or something before you post again.
I posted what I observed. If you want to verify my results then do a search of your own and see if you don't come up with the same results.

It was an observation.

 

[Rippon]

Most of the websites I saw connected Hort with the occult.

The point is --what kind of websites were they? If you look up UFO's you are going to encounter a lot of nonsense on the web about the subject. You need to indicate that you realize that most of the stuff posted about Hort and the occult originates from KJVO extremists. They regurgitate a lot from Gail Riplinger and some don't even acknowlege that. I hope I don't have to inform you that she is not trustworthy in the least. David Sorenson has picked up on a lot of what G.A.R. writes and passes it on without doing his homework. He gives false citations because Gail did so in the first place.

This is an observation. It is what I saw.

Yes,and what you have seen is not worth a plug nickel.

I am not accusing anyone of anything. It is you that are falsely accusing me and I resent the false accusations.

Listen,you didn't get anywhere with your assertions of Westcott's supposed Unitarianism either. Don't support tabloid-style "reports."

Perhaps go back to school and learn how to read.

You are the one to talk after I asked you the same question five times. I asked you to prove Hort's alleged occuly involvement and you said that you already did --when the article you produced had absolutely nothing to say about it. You made the same claim twice. Now you try to turn it around and say I have a comprehension problem? I don't think so.

 

[Nazaroo]

Are you denying that Hort was a member of the "Ghostly Guild",
a university club supposedly set up to investigate the occult, and 'spiritual manifestations', while in college?
Because Hort confessed as much in his letters, published by his son.

And when did DHK make any "assertions of Westcott's supposed Unitarianism" ???

It seems its you who are making the unsubstantiated assertions, and twisting people's words around.
I'm surprised he hasn't banned you for harrassment.
You need to tone it down.
You seem to be exhibiting what is known as "passive resistive" obnoxious behavior.

He's asked you to drop the accusations several times, but you refuse. I guess we'll have to see what happens next.

 

[Rippon]

Are you denying that Hort was a member of the "Ghostly Guild",
a university club supposedly set up to investigate the occult, and 'spiritual manifestations', while in college?
Because Hort confessed as much in his letters, published by his son.

Is investigating supposed supernatural events the same thing as
involved with the occult? No. And Hort didn't "confess",he related. What was his sin?

You have an unmistakable Riplingerish way about you.

And when did DHK make any "assertions of Westcott's supposed Unitarianism" ???

In post #109 when he agreed with you about Hort being involved with the occult.

It seems its you who are making the unsubstantiated assertions, and twisting people's words around.

Like you have room to talk. You have called a number of Christian scholars Unitarians,pagans,godless,stupid,dumb, and on and on and on. You are the fountainhead of misinformation to put it nicely.

You need to tone it down.

You my dear Naz, are not the one who should be lecturing anyone about toning it down. That's why so many of your remarks on the BB have been deleted.

 

[Nazaroo]

Is investigating supposed supernatural events the same thing as
involved with the occult? No. And Hort didn't "confess",he related. What was his sin?

It was a bunch of college rich kids, [edit]

Hort's sin later was being a Jesuit mole.

You have an unmistakable Riplingerish way about you.

And you have an unmistakable "make [stuff] up" way about you.

In post #109 when he agreed with you about Hort being involved with the occult.

Like I said. You were WRONG.
You lied. You accused him of saying things about Westcott,
and then you dig up what he said about HORT.
You have nothing.
You're making stuff up again.

You can buy a copy of Hort's Life and Letters here:

Reprints of Hort's Letters to Westcott etc.

You have called a number of Christian scholars Unitarians,pagans,godless,stupid,dumb...

Guilty as charged.

A number of Christian scholars and Unitarians are really pagans, godless, stupid, dumb...

Although I didn't say godless - you're making [stuff] up again.

You [edit]

[edit]???!?

If you want a conversation with me,
[snip]Talk like a normal person. [snip]

 

[DHK]

[/B]

The point is --what kind of websites were they? If you look up UFO's you are going to encounter a lot of nonsense on the web about the subject.

The only one I remember was connected with a website sponsored by "preterists." I remember because I thought it was odd. The rest I don't know. It didn't matter to me. Their may have been an officially sanctioned RCC site as well. Like I said, "an observation that you have upon yourself to turn into a personal attack, or as Naz has pointed out, harassment.

If you have anything against what I have posted then prove it.
Put up or shut up!!

 

[Rippon]

Hort's sin later was being a Jesuit mole.

You say this kind of worthless stuff so often it has become your mantra. Document your charge.

You accused him of saying things about Westcott,

"Saying things"? Saying slanderous things. He had agreed with you earlier that Westcott was a Unitarian --though he seems to have stepped away from that assertion after actually reading what the man actually wrote --- his commentary on the Gospel of John. You even stepped back a bit after your initial harsh charges couldn't stand the litmus test of truth.

and then you dig up what he said about HORT.
You have nothing.

Not much "digging" was required.

 

[Rippon]

The only one I remember was connected with a website sponsored by "preterists." I remember because I thought it was odd. The rest I don't know. It didn't matter to me. Their may have been an officially sanctioned RCC site as well.

Like I have said before :most of the websites that "report" this junk are KJVO. You need to show some needed discernment before you may your "observations". The majority report on many given subjects are often false --especially when it comes to stuff on the web.

I googled :"Hort's involvement with the occult." On the first page here's what I got:

www.maranatha.ca [a kjvo site]

www.psalm118 [a kjvo site]

worldfamine.com [a kjvo site]

watch.pair.com [a kjvo site]

www.kingjamesbible.com [need I tell you?]

HipandThigh [non-KJVO. It's run by the very reasonable Fred Butler.]

answers.yahoo.com [the lead "article" was most certainly KJVO.]

amazingdiscoveries.org [kjvo]

www.westcotthort.com [A non-kjvo site run by the astute James May.]

falseflags.wordpress.com [a kjvo site]

So what do we have here? Well 80% were KJVO,and the remaining 20% were non-KJVO.What does that tell us? Most of the information posted on the subject-at-hand is bogus, with an agenda to nail Mr.Hort with whatever they can throw against the wall.

If you have anything against what I have posted then prove it.

I just did. I will continue to do the same.

Put up or shut up!!

Copycat! I told you that when you said on 6/22/11 :"Calvin is known for his plagiarism."

That charge is completely false. You know it is. No scholar has come up with that allegation --- even the stronger non-Calvinistic ones.Yet you don't own up to your slander. You either become evasive or attempt to twist my words in an effort to escape from your words. It doesn't occur to you to admit you were wrong and move on.

Let me sum some things up :

Calvin was no plagiarist.

Westcott and Hort were not Unitarians.

Westcott was a theological conservative.

Hort was not involved with the occult.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Like I have said before :most of the websites that "report" this junk are KJVO. You need to show some needed discernment before you may your "observations". The majority report on many given subjects are often false --especially when it comes to stuff on the web.

I googled :"Hort's involvement with the occult." On the first page here's what I got:

www.maranatha.ca [a kjvo site]

www.psalm118 [a kjvo site]

worldfamine.com [a kjvo site]

watch.pair.com [a kjvo site]

www.kingjamesbible.com [need I tell you?]

HipandThigh [non-KJVO. It's run by the very reasonable Fred Butler.]

answers.yahoo.com [the lead "article" was most certainly KJVO.]

amazingdiscoveries.org [kjvo]

www.westcotthort.com [A non-kjvo site run by the astute James May.]

falseflags.wordpress.com [a kjvo site]

So what do we have here? Well 80% were KJVO,and the remaining 20% were non-KJVO.What does that tell us? Most of the information posted on the subject-at-hand is bogus, with an agenda to nail Mr.Hort with whatever they can throw against the wall.




I just did. I will continue to do the same.



Copycat! I told you that when you said on 6/22/11 :"Calvin is known for his plagiarism."

That charge is completely false. You know it is. No scholar has come up with that allegation --- even the stronger non-Calvinistic ones.Yet you don't own up to your slander. You either become evasive or attempt to twist my words in an effort to escape from your words. It doesn't occur to you to admit you were wrong and move on.

Let me sum some things up :

Calvin was no plagiarist.

Westcott and Hort were not Unitarians.

Westcott was a theological conservative.

Hort was not involved with the occult.

You know when the KJV of the bible came out in 1611 there was a lot of animosity aroused by it because most were faithful to their Geneva Bibles. Though the KJV is a great translation and they made use of several documents not just the TR (which admitadly has its share of problems) to try to get the best meaning to what they thought they could descern a being close to the autographs as possible. The Byzantine Text incomplete as it was was well used in the East but notably because of its tie in to John Chrysotsom's Liturgy regularily used by the Eastern Churches. People quickly overlook this obvious bias.