Paul’s Response to the Thessalonians Tells us the Nature & Timing of the 2nd Coming

[revmwc]

Rev,

I guess since you can’t find any verses that say God is coming back in a long time, a future generation a long time into the future, nor any other verses that place his coming long into the future you are reduced to distorting the term longsuffering as well.

Pity that you are so hamstrung on a defeated, unsupported notion that you can’t realize that every verse in the NT that addresses the issue of time places Christ’s coming back soon. A pity that you can’t accept the inspired scripture as they were written and need to monkey around with them support a desperate and hopeless view of prophecy.

Even the word “ye” you are slaughtering in a desperate and laughable manner. Anybody can do a little bit of research and find out that it is used to mean the plural of you that it is applies to people in general not just one person so ye means those people collectively of Jesus’ generation. It never ever means future generation-LOL. That some of those multitudes listening to him would see all things fulfilled. That means ALL prophecy would be fulfilled in the lifetime of some in that generation. I’ve seen futurists wax desperately and pitifully trying to distort verses before, but never frail about in the laughable way you have in this post rev.

Your last paragraph is just an odd collection of denials which is as delusional as it is desperate. I’ll let you stew in your own universe there instead of rehash them tonight.

The Holy Spirit speaking through Paul has always been quick to correct people when they were wrong about something so we can bank on the fact that he knew Christ was returning soon since the Holy Spirit didn’t correct the Thessalonians about their expectation of a return in their life time.

I suppose you would like to suggest the Holy Spirit was wrong too rev.

So the Holy Spirt was not wrong He made it very clear that it would be a physical return and Christ would be seen of ALL.
Verse 10 says He will be Glorified in His saints, that would be the Chruch Saints. Because "(because our testimony among you was believed)" since we have a parenthetic statement in verse 10 let's see the verse without it, "When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe in that day." He will be admired by those who are believers in that day what day the day of His return, not The Holy Spirit didn't say will be admired by "ye" in that day, but by them that believe, makes it very clear a future day when He will be seen by the Saints of that day.

Then in Chapter 2 the Holy Spirit again corrects the error of those that said it was a "Spiritual" or "metaphorical" return he makes it clear that they should not be shaken or troubled.
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time

Notice that in verse Don't be troubled or shaken in thinking that the day of Christ is at hand, verse 3 "for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;" He will not return for the church until there is "falling away first" and the man of perdition is revealed. Verse 6 says they knew these things and they knew who was withholding and Christ would be revealed in HIS time. Notice he didn't say in man's tinme or as man sees time but "IN HIS TIME". The Holy Spirit sure does correct error doesn't He. All of this is a correction of the error of Preterism and reveals exactly what the futurist say will happen, again thanks for showing us how to prove our position and how the Holy Spirit shows the error of the "Preterist".

 

[JesusFan]

So the Holy Spirt was not wrong He made it very clear that it would be a physical return and Christ would be seen of ALL.
Verse 10 says He will be Glorified in His saints, that would be the Chruch Saints. Because "(because our testimony among you was believed)" since we have a parenthetic statement in verse 10 let's see the verse without it, "When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe in that day." He will be admired by those who are believers in that day what day the day of His return, not The Holy Spirit didn't say will be admired by "ye" in that day, but by them that believe, makes it very clear a future day when He will be seen by the Saints of that day.

Then in Chapter 2 the Holy Spirit again corrects the error of those that said it was a "Spiritual" or "metaphorical" return he makes it clear that they should not be shaken or troubled.
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time

Notice that in verse Don't be troubled or shaken in thinking that the day of Christ is at hand, verse 3 "for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;" He will not return for the church until there is "falling away first" and the man of perdition is revealed. Verse 6 says they knew these things and they knew who was withholding and Christ would be revealed in HIS time. Notice he didn't say in man's tinme or as man sees time but "IN HIS TIME". The Holy Spirit sure does correct error doesn't He. All of this is a correction of the error of Preterism and reveals exactly what the futurist say will happen, again thanks for showing us how to prove our position and how the Holy Spirit shows the error of the "Preterist".

Pertierists need to answer
When was the "Great Tribulation?" Cannot be AD 70, as even the Holocost of WW II MUCH closer to what will be happening in end days!

When did jesus Rapture away his Church? When were graves emptied out, and sains translated to heaven directly?

Who was man of Sin in past?

why did God allow Jews to reform their nation, IF no longer part of His plans?

 

[thomas15]

Salem College 1981

Now isn’t that just special

I'm not sure about special, maybe, but it was just a typical liberal arts college experience. At the time it had a very good student Christian Ministry. How about your school?

 

[Logos1]

God's view of a long or short time is different than ours:

2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.​

Accordingly then the Lord has been gone for two days.



Will you accept this scripture as written?

Acts 1

9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.​

Or​

1 Thessalonians 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.​

HankD​

Hi Hank,

So if God’s time is different than ours how do you think you can establish what is long or short to him relative to us. Trying to use a conversion ratio of a thousand years to a day in a literal way would be illogical not to mention hysterical.

By your logic either nothing means anything or everything means it’s opposite to us. So that means we don’t know how to obtain salvation since God’s words to us can’t be accurately deciphered or you get to heaven by not accepting Christ and going to hell by accepting him. That is the corner you paint yourself into.

You bet I do accept that scripture as it is written. I embrace and stand on them as a preterist.

The verses in Acts mean he comes into heaven in the same manner he left earth—it has nothing to do with him coming back to earth that is dealt with other places.

In Thessalonians it means caught up into the spiritual realm not the sky. He would have used the greek work ouranos if he meant the sky instead he used aer which denotes the spiritual realm.

 

[Logos1]

Pertierists need to answer
When was the "Great Tribulation?" Cannot be AD 70, as even the Holocost of WW II MUCH closer to what will be happening in end days!

When did jesus Rapture away his Church? When were graves emptied out, and sains translated to heaven directly?

Who was man of Sin in past?

why did God allow Jews to reform their nation, IF no longer part of His plans?

This is where it pays to know your history. The wars and rumors of wars took place between Jesus’ death and 70 AD. In addition to the events of 70AD Josephus reports Herod going to war with the Aretas of Arabia. 40 AD Then in various wars and battles 50,000 Jews dead in Mesopotamia. 10,000 Jews perished in Jerusalem in 49 AD. In Caesarea 20,000 Jews killed. At Scythopolis 13,000. In Alexandria 50,000. In Damascus 10,000. Josephus even used the phrase the whole Province was full of unspeakable calamities so much so that wars and rumors of wars were extremely prevalent and nation rose against nation and kingdom against kingdom.

Since the rapture is an invention of dispensationalism and not supported by the bible I’ll let you figure that one out yourself.

The man of sin was probably the zealot John Gischala

The modern state of Israel is not in a covenant relationship with God—they are not part of any bible prophecy. All prophecy concerning Israel has to be fulfilled by the end of the Old Covenant in 70 AD.

Of course JF I know you live in your own reality of failed futurists fantasies, but that is your problem not mine. Anybody who views any of this with an honest look will see many problems with futurism and fulfillment of all the prophecies of the bible already.

It’s settled that all New Testament comments on the timing of Christ’s return say quickly and there is not one verse you can find that says it will be a long ways off.

Thanks again for the opportunity to point this out to the good folks reading this.

 

[Logos1]

Hi rev how ya doing,

I’ll combine your posts into a single answer here since they are basically the same. They both are weaving and dodging and shucking and jiving the issue.

You haven’t produced one verse saying Christ’s return would be a long way off because there aren’t any and we both know it. Preterist own the time statements of the Net Testament lock, stock, and barrel. You know I’m sorry (well not actually), but that is just the way it is. We should read the bible we have and not twist it to suit our views.

All your attempts at dancing around the issue don’t change the underlying truth of Thessalonians. Paul didn’t change the nature of the return they expected just the timing to not already but soon. I’m sure if Paul were here today he would be disappointed in your attempts of obfuscation and confusion.

I get a kick out of your posts today though—you are beginning to sound like Mel. You might give him a run for his money on the Joycelyn Elders public speaking award this year.

Your distortion of “ye” was priceless stuff yesterday. LOL.

 

[Logos1]

I'm not sure about special, maybe, but it was just a typical liberal arts college experience. At the time it had a very good student Christian Ministry. How about your school?

I'm gong to the Dallas Theological Seminary and working with a few professors to turn their dominant position into the preterist view. It's the Lord's work.

 

[revmwc]

Hi rev how ya doing,

I’ll combine your posts into a single answer here since they are basically the same. They both are weaving and dodging and shucking and jiving the issue.

You haven’t produced one verse saying Christ’s return would be a long way off because there aren’t any and we both know it. Preterist own the time statements of the Net Testament lock, stock, and barrel. You know I’m sorry (well not actually), but that is just the way it is. We should read the bible we have and not twist it to suit our views.

All your attempts at dancing around the issue don’t change the underlying truth of Thessalonians. Paul didn’t change the nature of the return they expected just the timing to not already but soon. I’m sure if Paul were here today he would be disappointed in your attempts of obfuscation and confusion.

I get a kick out of your posts today though—you are beginning to sound like Mel. You might give him a run for his money on the Joycelyn Elders public speaking award this year.

Your distortion of “ye” was priceless stuff yesterday. LOL.

Christ after the 1000 year reign and in the New Jerusalem, so when was this fulfilled and notice what He says:Revelation 22
King James Version (KJV)


Revelation 22
1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.
7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.
Notice in verse 6 these things must shortly be done, so the New Jerusalem must be here since they are linked to your view of the things that must shortly be done and then He says He comes quickly again you say that would be connected with all the events of Revelation and they occured in 70 A.D. so the Sun and moon we see are Christ by that teaching. If all of Revelation is completed as you say then we must be in New Jerusalem.

 

[HankD]

Hi Hank,

So if God’s time is different than ours how do you think you can establish what is long or short to him relative to us. Trying to use a conversion ratio of a thousand years to a day in a literal way would be illogical not to mention hysterical.

By your logic either nothing means anything or everything means it’s opposite to us. So that means we don’t know how to obtain salvation since God’s words to us can’t be accurately deciphered or you get to heaven by not accepting Christ and going to hell by accepting him. That is the corner you paint yourself into.

You bet I do accept that scripture as it is written. I embrace and stand on them as a preterist.

The verses in Acts mean he comes into heaven in the same manner he left earth—it has nothing to do with him coming back to earth that is dealt with other places.

In Thessalonians it means caught up into the spiritual realm not the sky. He would have used the greek work ouranos if he meant the sky instead he used aer which denotes the spiritual realm.

Acts 22:23 And as they cried out, and cast off their clothes, and threw dust into the air (Grk - aer).

HankD​

 

[JesusFan]

This is where it pays to know your history. The wars and rumors of wars took place between Jesus’ death and 70 AD. In addition to the events of 70AD Josephus reports Herod going to war with the Aretas of Arabia. 40 AD Then in various wars and battles 50,000 Jews dead in Mesopotamia. 10,000 Jews perished in Jerusalem in 49 AD. In Caesarea 20,000 Jews killed. At Scythopolis 13,000. In Alexandria 50,000. In Damascus 10,000. Josephus even used the phrase the whole Province was full of unspeakable calamities so much so that wars and rumors of wars were extremely prevalent and nation rose against nation and kingdom against kingdom.

Since the rapture is an invention of dispensationalism and not supported by the bible I’ll let you figure that one out yourself.

The man of sin was probably the zealot John Gischala

The modern state of Israel is not in a covenant relationship with God—they are not part of any bible prophecy. All prophecy concerning Israel has to be fulfilled by the end of the Old Covenant in 70 AD.

Of course JF I know you live in your own reality of failed futurists fantasies, but that is your problem not mine. Anybody who views any of this with an honest look will see many problems with futurism and fulfillment of all the prophecies of the bible already.

It’s settled that all New Testament comments on the timing of Christ’s return say quickly and there is not one verse you can find that says it will be a long ways off.

Thanks again for the opportunity to point this out to the good folks reading this.

So when the Bible states that God plan for isreal are unconditional, based upon HIs elective choice, than He decided to Lie to them?

That ALL of the promises made to them were undone?

Interesting that paul saw isreal/Jews as STILL part of the Plan of God, as he allowed them to reject Jesus so that we Gentiles could be "grafted in" but would One day restore them back in, and what glory that will be at that time!

Guess the "fantasy" believer would NOT be we dispy, by Apostle paul himself!

And who was that Man of Sin/Beast/false Prophet again back in AD 70?
Ones Satan had empowered to take over world systems of religion/economics/politics?
One Jesus slew at His second coming?

 

[HankD]

Hi Hank,
So if God’s time is different than ours how do you think you can establish what is long or short to him relative to us. Trying to use a conversion ratio of a thousand years to a day in a literal way would be illogical not to mention hysterical.

So by your logic then you agree that the 1000 years of Revelation is just that, 1000 actual years?

You bet I do accept that scripture as it is written. I embrace and stand on them as a preterist.

So, do you believe the Great Tribulation of which there will never be another is the events surounding AD70?

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.​

No matter how one manipulates the record of the AD70 historical events they don't hold a candle to five year global war of WWII.

The verses in Acts mean he comes into heaven in the same manner he left earth—it has nothing to do with him coming back to earth that is dealt with other places.

Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

He was taken up bodily, He shall come again in like manner and every eye will see Him, the same Jesus who was taken up bodily and not Titus.

In Thessalonians it means caught up into the spiritual realm not the sky. He would have used the greek work ouranos if he meant the sky instead he used aer which denotes the spiritual realm.

Already covered that aer is used of the lower density atmospheric air, Liddell-scott, Friberg, Kittel.

Acts 22:23 And as they cried out, and cast off their clothes, and threw dust into the air.​

HankD

 

[Logos1]

Proof all promises to Israel have been fulfilled already

So when the Bible states that God plan for isreal are unconditional, based upon HIs elective choice, than He decided to Lie to them?

That ALL of the promises made to them were undone?

Interesting that paul saw isreal/Jews as STILL part of the Plan of God, as he allowed them to reject Jesus so that we Gentiles could be "grafted in" but would One day restore them back in, and what glory that will be at that time!

Guess the "fantasy" believer would NOT be we dispy, by Apostle paul himself!

And who was that Man of Sin/Beast/false Prophet again back in AD 70?
Ones Satan had empowered to take over world systems of religion/economics/politics?
One Jesus slew at His second coming?

Dear fellow fan of Jesus.

You must be reading a bible that has various misprints. The regular one says that Christ came to fulfill the Old covenant and none of it would pass away till all of it passed away so if any of it has passed away then all of it has passed away.

Hmmm, Christ died on the cross and was the final sacrifice so animal sacrifices are no longer required according to Paul.

Looks like all the Old Covenant has passed away which means the political state of Israel is not in a covenant relationship with God. There are no prophecies in the bible related to today’s state of Israel. Sorry man that’s just the way it is accept it or not.

 

[Logos1]

More futurists twists and turns that make me laugh

I’m combining revmwc and hankd since their responses are similar.

You gentlemen have pointed out another of the many contradictions that futurists typically claim as truth.

You both have said a day unto the Lord is like a thousand years to man, but then you want to say the (I’ve never been convinced for one second that either of you believe that is to be taken as literal, but let’s suppose you actually do) 1,000 year Millennium is an actual literal 1,000 years in man’s terms. Obviously it can’t be 1,000 years it has to be converted to be consistent by your logic. You can’t have it both ways. So is the 1,000 millennium converted to God’s time and becomes one day to God (which would mean the 7 days of creation you like to literalize is 7,000 years by man’s time).

Or is it converted to man’s time and then it becomes 365 million years by man’s time which seems to play a little havoc with your second coming scenario.

You have painted yourselves into another messy corner you can’t get out of without making up more illogical and weird interpretations.

Just keep going down this road and you all will start sounding like Mel.

Only a Preterist view works here. Preterists too differ on the exact meaning of the 1,000 years, but I would say it is the 40 year period between crucifixion and 70 AD.

I’m still waiting for you to just own up to the fact that no where does the bible say that Christ will come back a long time in the future, some distant generation etc.

We all know admit it or not that Preterists own the time statements in the New Testament. Each day that passes your hole just gets deeper.

 

[HankD]

I’m combining revmwc and hankd since their responses are similar.

You gentlemen have pointed out another of the many contradictions that futurists typically claim as truth.

You both have said a day unto the Lord is like a thousand years to man, but then you want to say the (I’ve never been convinced for one second that either of you believe that is to be taken as literal, but let’s suppose you actually do) 1,000 year Millennium is an actual literal 1,000 years in man’s terms. Obviously it can’t be 1,000 years it has to be converted to be consistent by your logic. You can’t have it both ways. So is the 1,000 millennium converted to God’s time and becomes one day to God (which would mean the 7 days of creation you like to literalize is 7,000 years by man’s time).

And you say that "short" and its derivatives means an undisclosed "short" amount of time (at the time of the writing) but 1000 years in Revelation Chapter 20 somehow is 40 years by the preterist schema of reckoning.

Clearly a double standard.

Here again is God's view of time:

2 Peter 3

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.​

You have painted yourselves into another messy corner you can’t get out of without making up more illogical and weird interpretations.

Similar to the preterist of the interpretation of 2 Peter 3?

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men...​

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.​

How is the fact that the earth is still here post AD70 with sin and death still reigning, undertakers still in business, prisons still open, wars still happening etc... ?

I’m still waiting for you to just own up to the fact that no where does the bible say that Christ will come back a long time in the future, some distant generation etc.

That is because we can't know the exact moment in time

Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.​

And time as been previously shown is determinant upon God's shematic.

The key is called discernment.

As I have repeatedly said, every view has it's problems.
The truth lies in the ability to discern between the literal and the metaphor.

Obviously, one of the venues is wrong (Futurism vs Preterism).

Let the readers decide.

We all know admit it or not that Preterists own the time statements in the New Testament. Each day that passes your hole just gets deeper.

In your opinion.

And the fallacy (IMO) of the preterist position is clearly manifested in their denial of the visible and bodily return of Jesus Christ to the earth.

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.​

1 Thessalonians 4

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.​

Acts 1
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.​

Zechariah 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.​

HankD​

 

[revmwc]

I’m combining revmwc and hankd since their responses are similar.

You gentlemen have pointed out another of the many contradictions that futurists typically claim as truth.

You both have said a day unto the Lord is like a thousand years to man, but then you want to say the (I’ve never been convinced for one second that either of you believe that is to be taken as literal, but let’s suppose you actually do) 1,000 year Millennium is an actual literal 1,000 years in man’s terms. Obviously it can’t be 1,000 years it has to be converted to be consistent by your logic. You can’t have it both ways. So is the 1,000 millennium converted to God’s time and becomes one day to God (which would mean the 7 days of creation you like to literalize is 7,000 years by man’s time).

Or is it converted to man’s time and then it becomes 365 million years by man’s time which seems to play a little havoc with your second coming scenario.

You have painted yourselves into another messy corner you can’t get out of without making up more illogical and weird interpretations.

Just keep going down this road and you all will start sounding like Mel.

Only a Preterist view works here. Preterists too differ on the exact meaning of the 1,000 years, but I would say it is the 40 year period between crucifixion and 70 AD.

I’m still waiting for you to just own up to the fact that no where does the bible say that Christ will come back a long time in the future, some distant generation etc.

We all know admit it or not that Preterists own the time statements in the New Testament. Each day that passes your hole just gets deeper.

Well considering the fact that God spoke to Daniel in 70 2weeks of of years, each week being intervals of 7 years for the week, then we see God dealing with man in His time not ours So 70 weeks for God in Dealing with Israel and the Messiahs coming would be 69 weeks or 483 years and Messiah would be cut off. We know that 69 weeks to us would be a little over 9 years, so we have God using time to accomplish His will His way not ours. So the 483 years represented Gods timing, isn't that amazing how God used it, but you insist God must deal with us based on man's time, when we clearly see it doesn't/

You say well Christ says the things which come quickly or soon deal with a short period of time and all prophecy would be fulfilled. So you must then deal with this:
Revelation 22: 1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.
7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

By your interpretation the first portion should be where we are in God's plan.
Which means the sun and moon are Christ because verse 5 states there is no night nor need for candle and we don't need the sun for Christ has become all that in the New Heaven and earth after His 1000 year Millenial reign. Notice right after verse 1 - 6 we have verse 7 behold I come quickly, by your interpretation all the things described in verse 1 -6 have occured and He came quickly and we are now living in New Jerusalem.
Yet everyone can see that these events have not occured and we aren't living in New Jerusalem on a New Earth with a New Heaven. Preterism has shown yet another falasy in it's teaching.

God's timing is not man's and God deals with us in His way withing His UNLIMITED Power and withing His will.

We futurist are waiting on the event of
Matthew 25:6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

When the trumpet blows and the Bridegroom (Christ) comes for His Bride the Church, we have our oil full with the indwelling of the Spirit and are ready. The Preterist who have faith in Christ have that same Spirit indwelling them they too will be going even though they don't believe it will happen as Christ said and as Paul stated, doesn't change that it will happen.

With the preterism teaching we definitely see this verse being fulfilled:
2 Peter 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:


We futurist can claim this crown:
2 Timothy 4: 8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

 

[thomas15]

I'm gong to the Dallas Theological Seminary and working with a few professors to turn their dominant position into the preterist view. It's the Lord's work.

There is a poster at the PB who calls himself chaplianintraining, he also claims to be at student at DTS. An educated guess is that he is your roomie.

No matter, I intend to go the Westminster Philiadelphia and turn it dispy.

 

[JesusFan]

Dear fellow fan of Jesus.

You must be reading a bible that has various misprints. The regular one says that Christ came to fulfill the Old covenant and none of it would pass away till all of it passed away so if any of it has passed away then all of it has passed away.

Hmmm, Christ died on the cross and was the final sacrifice so animal sacrifices are no longer required according to Paul.

Looks like all the Old Covenant has passed away which means the political state of Israel is not in a covenant relationship with God. There are no prophecies in the bible related to today’s state of Israel. Sorry man that’s just the way it is accept it or not.

Agree with you that PRESENT nation isreal not in such a relationship with God BUT...

Ezeckiel prophecy of bones coming tio life WILL see a real fulfillment

In That DAY, when messaih returns and come unto the people that rejected Him at first coming...

They will be saved as a nation overnight, just as paul predicted

At that time, messiah rule from Jerusalem, all nations paying homage to jesus

jesus endured/suffered immensly, and His futrue return to set up His Kingdom and rule over all nations part of the promise inheritance His father would grant unto Him for enduring the shame and agony of the Cross!

 

[Logos1]

And you say that "short" and its derivatives means an undisclosed "short" amount of time (at the time of the writing) but 1000 years in Revelation Chapter 20 somehow is 40 years by the preterist schema of reckoning.

Clearly a double standard.

Here again is God's view of time:

2 Peter 3

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.​

Similar to the preterist of the interpretation of 2 Peter 3?

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men...​

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.​

How is the fact that the earth is still here post AD70 with sin and death still reigning, undertakers still in business, prisons still open, wars still happening etc... ?



That is because we can't know the exact moment in time

Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.​

And time as been previously shown is determinant upon God's shematic.

The key is called discernment.

As I have repeatedly said, every view has it's problems.
The truth lies in the ability to discern between the literal and the metaphor.

Obviously, one of the venues is wrong (Futurism vs Preterism).

Let the readers decide.



In your opinion.

And the fallacy (IMO) of the preterist position is clearly manifested in their denial of the visible and bodily return of Jesus Christ to the earth.

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.​

1 Thessalonians 4

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.​

Acts 1
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.​

Zechariah 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.​

HankD​

No double standard. Unlike futurists I haven’t painted myself into a corner and claimed this is literal. 1,000 years is symbolic—it is symbolizing completeness.

Surely you aren’t suggesting that 1,000 years in man’s time means a literal day in God’s time. Surely you don’t see this as anything but symbolism. Do you?

2 peter 3 is not by any long stretch of the imagination suggesting that the literal earth will be destroyed. It is saying that the Jewish World of the Old Covenant will pass away with the destruction of the temple.

Of course the temple burned and the elements of worship made of gold did melt so I think this could be literal—you just have to know how to apply it.

Either way it is a clear reference to the way the old covenant ordered Jewish society around the Mosaic law..

Yes we have to deny the literal return of Christ in the future since it doesn’t mean a literal eyeball, but to see with the mind, to comprehend, to understand. There is just no physical return here if you don’t turn the bible into English literature.

If the Zechariah verse means all nations of the earth it would be the only such reference in the bible to all the nations of the planet—but of course it refers to the nations around the Mediterranean Sea which comprised the Roman army.

Jesus’ feet down on the Mt. Of Olives twisted in to literal foot touching down of Jesus. It is interesting how futurists can correctly understand the various places in Psalms where God tramples the mountains and churns up the sea as symbolic language. But let it be a future instead of a past reference and they automatically turn it into a literal event.

With no time statement in the bible to support a far away return of Christ and all of them promising a soon return it seems beyond delusional to try to force His return into the far future just based on such statements as a thousand years is as a day. It doesn’t even say a thousand years equals a day just that it is as a day—clearly making this symbolic and not literal. To force literalness on it is an affront to Paul. Let Paul be Paul.

 

[Logos1]

Well considering the fact that God spoke to Daniel in 70 2weeks of of years, each week being intervals of 7 years for the week, then we see God dealing with man in His time not ours So 70 weeks for God in Dealing with Israel and the Messiahs coming would be 69 weeks or 483 years and Messiah would be cut off. We know that 69 weeks to us would be a little over 9 years, so we have God using time to accomplish His will His way not ours. So the 483 years represented Gods timing, isn't that amazing how God used it, but you insist God must deal with us based on man's time, when we clearly see it doesn't/

You say well Christ says the things which come quickly or soon deal with a short period of time and all prophecy would be fulfilled. So you must then deal with this:
Revelation 22: 1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.
7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

By your interpretation the first portion should be where we are in God's plan.
Which means the sun and moon are Christ because verse 5 states there is no night nor need for candle and we don't need the sun for Christ has become all that in the New Heaven and earth after His 1000 year Millenial reign. Notice right after verse 1 - 6 we have verse 7 behold I come quickly, by your interpretation all the things described in verse 1 -6 have occured and He came quickly and we are now living in New Jerusalem.
Yet everyone can see that these events have not occured and we aren't living in New Jerusalem on a New Earth with a New Heaven. Preterism has shown yet another falasy in it's teaching.

God's timing is not man's and God deals with us in His way withing His UNLIMITED Power and withing His will.

We futurist are waiting on the event of
Matthew 25:6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

When the trumpet blows and the Bridegroom (Christ) comes for His Bride the Church, we have our oil full with the indwelling of the Spirit and are ready. The Preterist who have faith in Christ have that same Spirit indwelling them they too will be going even though they don't believe it will happen as Christ said and as Paul stated, doesn't change that it will happen.

With the preterism teaching we definitely see this verse being fulfilled:
2 Peter 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:


We futurist can claim this crown:
2 Timothy 4: 8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

Rev,

You have pointed out yet another inconsistency in the way futurists tangle themselves up by making the contradictory time statements literal.

In Daniel a week equals a year, in Thessalonians a day equals a thousand years, and in Revelation a thousand years equals a thousand years. Futurists can’t get a single time statement to agree with another time statement.

I don’t need to point out the complete lack of logic and reason in any of this. Futurists make themselves a circus side show by claiming all these are literal and all accurate. A big hardy LOL on this one. Go ahead and defend it rev—makes for wonderful entertainment.

“God's timing is not man's and God deals with us in His way withing His UNLIMITED Power and withing His will.”

Such a broad general statement it can mean about anything to anybody—which in the end makes it meaningless to any specific understanding.

 

[Logos1]

There is a poster at the PB who calls himself chaplianintraining, he also claims to be at student at DTS. An educated guess is that he is your roomie.

No matter, I intend to go the Westminster Philiadelphia and turn it dispy.

Not sure what you are talking about.

I think you should go and attempt just that—and you may just get converted to a Preterist yourself.