ALl of us ARE reckoned as being in Adam, please read Romans, as the Apostle makes the case that we are either depravied and found in Adam, or alive spiritual again, as found in Christ!
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Do We ALL Agree that Man is Both Depraived And Spiritual Inable To Come To God?
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ALl of us ARE reckoned as being in Adam, please read Romans, as the Apostle makes the case that we are either depravied and found in Adam, or alive spiritual again, as found in Christ!
Depraved, yes; but not so totally depraved that it is impossible for them to come to Christ or respond to Christ in any way unless they are the elect of God. Thus the unscriptural doctrine of God elected some to salvation and some to damnation. That doctrine rests on Total Depravity. Without Total Depravity, that doctrine falls. With a depraved nature man is still able to have the choice to choose or reject Christ of his own free will. Man is not God's robot, with faith injected into him forced to believe with God's faith and not his own.
preacher4truth
Active Member
We are all guilty in Adam.
There is no such thing as that we are given a chance like Adam. That chance is one and done. Our free will is gone (to choose to be righteous and never sin) we are sinners, and we are not another Adam, simply because the circumstances have changed, and Adam was not sinful until the fall. We on hte other hand are born in sin and are guilty. Thus the difference between he and us is completely altered. We are not in "innocence" as he was (for failure of the theological word to describe his state in the Garden, at this moment.)
We are all guilty in Adam before we commit the first "real" sin. This is clear in Scripture. The whole world is under sin? Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Romans 3:16.
If God were to punish each and every single person He could send them all to Hell and be Just in doing so, every one, the whole world is guilty, accept for those who are in Christ.
I also believe that each person is safe, that is, in children who die, that do to this safe state, they go to be with the Lord. I use Davids child as an example of this.
- Grace and Peace
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problem is that we no longer have that "free will" as Adam had before he sinned against the Lord...
We are restricted by our very sinful natures...
We are free to chose what we want to do, but that is constrained/bound in the Flesh, that IS at war with God, will NOT heed/obey God etc
We will hear the Good news and choose to reject...
We have the freedom to reject within ourselves, but NOT to accept by faith
That is the Gift of God towards thosen chosen to be saved out of sinful humanity...
God is NOT electing those to go to Heaven/Hell
he elects/enables those among us to go to heaven rest freely chose hell!
preacher4truth
Active Member
:thumbsup:
Our wills are not free, they are bound up by sin. And you are correct, it is God who chose us.
Except for Adam, who was created without sin, we are all the same. God is just. Your fallacy above is "[they were] granted means to believe on Him." Wrong. They, like all others, were given opportunity to believe on him. They heard his words; they saw his works; and yet they refused. A few believed. The majority were so envious that they put him on the cross and crucified him. Remember the great mob outside of the place where Pilate stood, shouting: "Crucify Him, Crucify Him!!"
Nicodemus, Joseph or Saul were not given faith. You do not have a leg to stand on. There is not one verse in Scripture that says that God took a hypodermic needle and injected faith into them. Absolute nonsense! They believed on Christ with their own innate faith which every man is born with, just as an infant believes on his parents to give him protection. Unless you have faith as a little child you cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Over and over again, the command of the Bible is to believe. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved. That is the gospel message. God doesn't give the unsaved that faith, and you can't show it to me in the Bible--five threads now, and none of you have demonstrated that faith is a gift of God given to the unregenerate. So why start stating an unscriptural Calvinstic doctrine now, unless you can support it with Scripture?
Adam was dead. Adam was free to commune with God. Please explain.
Only somewhat. It was God that said: "Seek ye the Lord while he may be found." Did he give this command in vain? Obviously it is one that a sinner can obey, even if he has a sinful nature.
Even as a believer you have a carnal nature that is at enmity with God and pits you as the enemy of God. Can you believe that. Read James 4:4.
The truth is that if man does not have the choice to be saved, then he cannot be saved. For it was Christ Himself that commanded him to believe.
Check John 5:24. Also
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (Mark 16:16)
--Man either believes or he believes not. He has that choice set before him. It was Christ that put the choice there.
That doesn't make sense, especially in the light of Mark 16:16.
Jesus said the choice is to believe or believe not. It is one or the other.
Your philosophy does not get you to heaven. You have not been able to support what you say by Scripture. Faith is not a gift of God given to the unregenerate. That is a myth; a Calvinistic philosophy, which told often enough people will eventually believe as truth. But that doesn't make it true.
You mean you don't believe Calvin, even though you keep quoting him without any Scriptural basis? Amazing!
preacher4truth
Active Member
It is not about mans "goodness" and our seeking after God. It is about God seeking and saving that which was lost.
If there were some "goodness" in us, and we could seek God, and thus find Him, then only those good folks would go to heaven, and I can't see the cross fitting in here anywhere. There is a complete misunderstanding the of these texts, and some very serious theological missapplication of them.
That anyone believes we actually can do this is to believe that those in the OT could keep the law, that Moses said was simple.
What is the man who seeks after God to do when He finds Him? The whole entire implication in these verse is that we are responsible concerning God, thatit is of upmost importance that we think on these things, and come to realize that we cannot find Him, and that we discover we need His mercy.
The whole entire point is missed with this theology. Man was never able.
Only one could, and did fulfill it all, and He's the one who sought us.
The understanding of proof-texts about "seeking God" implying that man "is able" is a complete misunderstanding of lost man and the whole entirety of Scripture and the inability of lost man to reach God. This is why He came to us, not vice versa.
This belief system is filled with fallacies and holes.
- Grace and Peace
If there were some "goodness" in us, and we could seek God, and thus find Him, then only those good folks would go to heaven, and I can't see the cross fitting in here anywhere. There is a complete misunderstanding the of these texts, and some very serious theological missapplication of them.
That anyone believes we actually can do this is to believe that those in the OT could keep the law, that Moses said was simple.
What is the man who seeks after God to do when He finds Him? The whole entire implication in these verse is that we are responsible concerning God, thatit is of upmost importance that we think on these things, and come to realize that we cannot find Him, and that we discover we need His mercy.
The whole entire point is missed with this theology. Man was never able.
Only one could, and did fulfill it all, and He's the one who sought us.
The understanding of proof-texts about "seeking God" implying that man "is able" is a complete misunderstanding of lost man and the whole entirety of Scripture and the inability of lost man to reach God. This is why He came to us, not vice versa.
This belief system is filled with fallacies and holes.
- Grace and Peace
Robert Snow
New Member
They are right, but only partially. Man does have a sin nature inherited by Adam. The Bible does teach that.
Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. (Psalms 51:5)
--Here David admits his sinfulness. He points that he was sinful right from the time of his birth. But he does not say that he was totally depraved, only sinful (shapen in iniquity)
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. (Isaiah 64:6)
--We are sinful, unclean in the sight of God. Our righteousnesses or good works are useless in God’s sight. They are that way in the sense that they have no merit before God as far as salvation is concerned.
Our iniquities have taken us away. Isaiah previously stated this same truth
All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. (Isaiah 53:6)
--Note that it has been our choice to go astray. We like sheep have gone astray. We have turned each other to his own way. They didn’t have to follow us, but they did. We led them astray purposefully. It was our decision, made of our own free will.
--This truth is stated here:
The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. (Psalms 58:3)
--When a child is born he is born with a sin nature. He must be taught to teach the truth, otherwise he will speak lies. He does not have an innate good nature, but rather an innate sin nature that he is born with. But never does it say that it is so evil and corrupt that it is impossible for him to respond to God whatsoever.
But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned. (Matthew 12:36-37)
--Such scriptures would have no meaning if man is not accountable for his own sin. He will give account of his own sin. He is responsible for the deeds done in this life. His sin he freely chose of his own doing. You are freely choosing this very minute to type the words you will put on this message board. God is not forcing you to do it. You do it of your own free will, and God will hold you accountable for whatever words you put here.
Your philosophy or perhaps Calvin's, I don't know. What I do know is that it is utterly void of Scripture and doesn't refute any of what I have posted. When something is void, it is vain. That is what the word means. Don't post in vain. Put some substance to your post and try to refute what I post with Scripture, as I have challenged you to do all along.
We are NOT though saying God "injects" God faith in us to "lobotimize" us, turning us into "Chrsitian Zombies" that must obey Jesus!
No, rather saying that we cannot exercise that decision to accept Christ by faith, as we are bound in with sinful flesh, that constrains us to always freely answer in the negative...
basically, we do same thing that you see happening , tht we hear and believe and receive jesus, its just that there is a prior step involved, when God chooses to grant us the capability to "freely" decide for Christ!
You can say that till you are blue in the face.
But it is not supported from the Scriptures. Five threads now and no support from the Scriptures. Why should I believe you if you can't support something from the Bible. God does not give spiritual gifts to the unregenerate. That is Bible truth.
Man is born spiritually dead and has an Old Sin Nature. Once he is no longer innocent as we are till we come to know we are sinners then we become accountable.
Man is totally depraved and God sent His Son to die, to atone for our sins. The Holy Spirit comes to convict and draw us to God, man doesn't Go seeking God but He came to seek and save the lost.
So man is totally depraved and will not come to God with he be drawn by the Holy spirit.
Man is totally depraved and God sent His Son to die, to atone for our sins. The Holy Spirit comes to convict and draw us to God, man doesn't Go seeking God but He came to seek and save the lost.
So man is totally depraved and will not come to God with he be drawn by the Holy spirit.
preacher4truth
Active Member
Gladly.
Originally Posted by preacher4truth:
"The son of man came to seek and to save that which was lost." Matthew 18:11. The Bible is the glorious story of Him seeking to save us. Not man seeking God to save self. Nor of mans pursuit of God. But of Gods pursuit of man, John 3:16. I think your post I replied to sought to prove otherwise, that you believe we are capable of finding God since he asks us to seek Him. Your misunderstanding lies within the elementary fact that God has presented us with a dilemma, and has given us things He knows we cannot accomplish, in order to show us we are incapable of these things. The law given, is one perfect example, and there is a "proof-text" in Galatians showing the purpose of the law was just as I have said. You however, still believe we can accomplish it, thus, you are missing the point completely.
Why did God give to man things He KNEW he could not accomplish? To show his sin nature and inability, to make us aware. That's not only "my philosophy" but "my philosophy" is Bible.
This basic truth you disagree with? How is the cross then necessary according to your philosophy that man can find God, by your OT quote, prior to Christ on the Cross? Please refer to my first paragraph above and consider these truths.
Do you believe that we can keep the laws of God, that they are simple?
And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. Luke 18:13
Someone failed to tell this fellow he could find God, and he believed he needed to depend upon His mercy alone. He realized it all lie upon God's mercy and that he was guilty as charged, because the Scriptures showed his inability, unless God shows mercy.
Show me where man is able to come to God, without the help and intervention of Christ. I speak of these men, condemned in Romans, who do not even seek God. I speak of those who relaize God has given to us an impossible task to find Him in order to show forth our lost state and inability. I believe you are saying man does seek God, correct, and man can do this?
You need Scripture for this seriously? Do you disagree with this? Or do you go back to where Moses said it is simple, and we can also do it?
The entire Scriptures agree with this. Or do I need a proof-text?
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Dunno...
wonder what Peter thought about this? Didn't he say that we ALL wander away by choice from Shepherd of our souls?
Paul said that there was not ONE good thing in him
Jeremiah had that "modern" view that the human heart is "deceiful and wicked"
Guess they also did not get the memo about how good human being really are?
quantumfaith
Active Member
If man (mankind) is totally unable to "seek" God how come people seem to do it the world over in such a multitude of ways, Islam, Hinduism, etc. Of course in our eyes as Christians their ways are in vain, but ask them, they would say that they are indeed seeking God, irregardless of how fruitless and incorrect we see it.
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