The Holy Spirit always has His part in salvation. The Bible says that he came into this world to convict the world of sin, and of righteousness and of judgment. That is his role. I was made aware of my sinful state before God, convicted of my sin, in need of a Savior. I am sure that that was the work of the Holy Spirit.
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Do We ALL Agree that Man is Both Depraived And Spiritual Inable To Come To God?
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quantumfaith
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Faith comes through the hearing of God's Word. It is not a gift of God. God does not give spiritual gifts to the unregenerate. That has been my main point all along.
When I believed it was not God's gift of faith that allowed me to believe. I believed. The Holy Spirit was at work; there is no doubt. But the Bible teaches that the Holy Spirit works through the Word of God to bring one to salvation. I am not sure what you mean by "internal working". None of my organs were changed. :smilewinkgrin:
When Paul compares the carnal nature to the spiritual nature he says this:
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. (Romans 7:25)
The Bible talks of the "mind of Christ." Let this mind be in you which is also in Christ.
In Phil.4:8, Paul lists many Godly attributes, and then he says: "think on these things."
--The battle is in the mind. Our faith is based on the resurrection of Jesus Christ. It is not a blind faith, but actually very intellectual. We believe a faith, that which Jude calls "the faith," a faith which we are to contend for.
When people get saved they have different reactions (emotionally).
Some will jump up and down shouting Hallelujah!!!!!!!!!!
Some will feel a settled peace.
Some will feel joy and happiness.
And there are some that will have very little emotion at all.
The emotion doesn't matter. What matters is if God did a work in your heart (not the organ, but the mind ). Emotions are extra. If those around you begin seeing a change in your life that is what counts. Salvation is not religion but a relationship with the Savior.
It is the gift of God received by faith and faith alone. God created the circumstances. I believed.
I'd bet you've asked this twenty times or more, but you never seem to grasp it.
Imagine you are walking and you come to a river with a swift and powerful current. There is no way you are ABLE to safely cross it.
You come back a month later and discover someone has built a strong and secure bridge over this river. Now you have been enabled, you are ABLE to cross the river.
Does that get you across the river? No, you have to personally walk over the bridge to cross the river. Just because the bridge builder enabled you to cross the river does not mean he caused you to cross, you have to do that for yourself.
Now imagine if God had never spoken his words to his holy prophets. Could you know who the true God is? Imagine he had not recorded the story of Jesus dying on the cross and rising from the dead. Could you believe on Jesus? No, because you cannot possibly believe what you do not know. When God had the apostles write the NT, he enabled you to know of Jesus so that you could believe on him.
But you have to do the believeing, God does not believe for you.
The gospel is like the bridge that enables you to cross the river, but you have to believe for yourself, just as you would have to walk yourself to cross the river.
There are dozens of verses that say YOU have to believe, simply believe what the word of God says.
I completely disagree that man is unable to come to God or to understand the gospel with out first being regenerated. There is nothing in scripture that suggest such a thing. However man does not come to God with out the calling or drawing. The simple reason for that is the natural man believes he has no need of God. So he doesn't seek God. He has no reason. He is ignorant of the fact he isn't worthy of Salvation. He doesn't see himself as sinful or bad. He doesn't believe he needs a Savior so why would he come to God? Unless He is drawn or called and he hears the truth and starts to see himself as undeserving, because of his sin and that there is a way to overcome his sin.
Before being drawn and convinced of the gospel, and being convicted of his sins, everyman believes he is good whether he is or not. He sees nothing wrong with himself. So why would he need a Savior. He is completely convinced he's having a good time as he is.
The reason we should be preaching the gospel to the world.
If man is unable to come to God man is unable to respond to the gospel. This concept is not even hinted at in scripture because it isn't true.
MB
Before being drawn and convinced of the gospel, and being convicted of his sins, everyman believes he is good whether he is or not. He sees nothing wrong with himself. So why would he need a Savior. He is completely convinced he's having a good time as he is.
The reason we should be preaching the gospel to the world.
If man is unable to come to God man is unable to respond to the gospel. This concept is not even hinted at in scripture because it isn't true.
MB
JF my friend.....before these people start on you, spend 15 minutes of your life reading this......George Whitefield's sermon Method of Grace. Please!
http://www.reformed.org/documents/index.html?mainframe=/documents/Whitefield/WITF_058.html
I promise that if you absorb it then you will have your answers. Good to pray to the HS first for max absorption. Then lets talk privately. Maybe read it in the morning when your fresh.
Blessings
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Well, maybe he is not in his full sin nature, maybe he is just half his sin nature. :smilewinkgrin:
Robert Snow
New Member
I find it reveling that so many Calvinists, when confronted with a scriptural dilemma refer to things like the Institutes, a sermon by Spurgeon, some confession somewhere, a book by Edwards or some other Calvinistic author etc. It seems like the bible is used mainly as a support mechanism for the doctrine of Calvinism.
God placed the desire to live forever, God gave him a conscience, God gave him creation, and to top it off God perfectly placed him in the precise location in space and time to seek Him. Sounds like a lot of grace to me!
Actually its the other way around...... Let me illustrate:
1689 Baptist Confessions of Faith
Chapter 1: Of the Holy Scriptures
1._____ The Holy Scripture is the only sufficient, certain, and infallible rule of all saving knowledge, faith, and obedience, although the light of nature, and the works of creation and providence do so far manifest the goodness, wisdom, and power of God, as to leave men inexcusable; yet are they not sufficient to give that knowledge of God and his will which is necessary unto salvation. Therefore it pleased the Lord at sundry times and in divers manners to reveal himself, and to declare that his will unto his church; and afterward for the better preserving and propagating of the truth, and for the more sure establishment and comfort of the church against the corruption of the flesh, and the malice of Satan, and of the world, to commit the same wholly unto writing; which maketh the Holy Scriptures to be most necessary, those former ways of God's revealing his will unto his people being now ceased.
( 2 Timothy 3:15-17; Isaiah 8:20; Luke 16:29, 31; Ephesians 2:20; Romans 1:19-21; Romans 2:14,15; Psalms 19:1-3; Hebrews 1:1; Proverbs 22:19-21; Romans 15:4; 2 Peter 1:19,20 )
Yes I agree. after that man looks up, realizes his life of sin, realizes the caliber of his Life Giving Gift & says, "Thank You". That is Amazing Grace!:thumbsup:
The crux of the matter is this...Scripture states these are given to everyone. Not everyone comes to that realization (those who exchange the truth for a lie) and its for that reason they are justly condemned.
Your telling me that some people will say no to God after being given these gifts?
Chapter 10: Of Effectual Calling
1._____ Those whom God hath predestinated unto life, he is pleased in his appointed, and accepted time, effectually to call, by his Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ; enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God; taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them a heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and by his almighty power determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ; yet so as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace.
( Romans 8:30; Romans 11:7; Ephesians 1:10, 11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 14; Ephesians 2:1-6; Acts 26:18; Ephesians 1:17, 18; Ezekiel 36:26; Deuteronomy 30:6; Ezekiel 36:27; Ephesians 1:19; Psalm 110:3; Song of Solomon 1:4 )
2._____ This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone, not from anything at all foreseen in man, nor from any power or agency in the creature, being wholly passive therein, being dead in sins and trespasses, until being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit; he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it, and that by no less power than that which raised up Christ from the dead.
( 2 Timothy 1:9; Ephesians 2:8; 1 Corinthians 2:14; Ephesians 2:5; John 5:25; Ephesians 1:19, 20 )
3._____ Elect infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit; who worketh when, and where, and how he pleases; so also are all elect persons, who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.
( John 3:3, 5, 6; John 3:8 )
4._____ Others not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit, yet not being effectually drawn by the Father, they neither will nor can truly come to Christ, and therefore cannot be saved: much less can men that receive not the Christian religion be saved; be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature and the law of that religion they do profess.
( Matthew 22:14; Matthew 13:20, 21; Hebrews 6:4, 5; John 6:44, 45, 65; 1 John 2:24, 25; Acts 4:12; John 4:22; John 17:3 )
Whoever said He did? That is certainly not a Calvinistic belief. But nor does He open the heart and then give a choice of whether to believe or not. That could mean that Richard Dawkins is regenerate, but has just chosen not to believe! No, faith is a part of the New Birth. God takes away the heart of stone and replaces it with a heart of flesh that will respond to the Gospel message with repentance and faith. 'Salvation is of the Lord' (Jonah 2:9). Every part of it, including faith.
Exactly so.
Oh yes He did. Otherwise you would be in unbelief to this very day.
Again, you are reading Acts 16:14 wrongly. Look at it again. God opened her heart. To do what? To make her own decision? No! To heed the things spoken by Paul. God opened her heart to believe.
I agree. No evidence whatsoever. The faith comes when the heart is opened.
Who disagrees with this? Not Calvinists. God saves through the hearing of His word. But, 'The natural man does not receive the things of God.' If God does not give men faith, they will not believe. As God says, 'All day long I have stretched out My hands to a disobedient and contrary people' (Isaiah 65:2; Rom 10:21).
With respect, you are all over the place here. You cannot give birth to yourself. 'Not of the will of the flesh.' Your own fallen will cannot save you. You cannot believe in order to be born again. One is born again by the power of God and one believes by the power of God. Isn't it wonderful? All of Him; none of me. Praise His Name!
Exactly so. Faith is a gift of God. It is to be received as such, and God is to be honoured as the Author of our salvation. Every single part of it.
Steve
That is what a man said. It is not what God said.
Unless everyone is saved men "exchange the truth for a lie". You cannot exchange something not in your possession. ALL men have creation. ALL men have a conscious. ALL men have eternity placed in their heart. ALL men have been placed to seek God "...and perhaps find Him although He is not far from each of us." (Acts 17:26-27)
quantumfaith
Active Member
:smilewinkgrin::smilewinkgrin::thumbsup:
Then all men will go to heaven.
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