Were the original Baptist missionaries Calvinist?

The five points were simply a response to the five points of arminianism at the canon of Dort. Then we have the adjustments to fit our baptist theology. Calvinist is probably a very poor label for us, but it is the most common title.

I am afraid we tend to confuse what we think is the mind and workings of God in the creation with what we think, as men, happens in human terms.

It is like adopting a "proof text" to establish theology. You soon find another passage of scripture to contradict, or at least shed more light, on the proof text.

Cheers,

Jim

 

You know what John- you have been successful in your goal here.

It was to disarm me and diffuse a potentially heated exchange - and you did.

I do not think you backed down for any other reason than a very mature and noble one. I commend you.

Congratualtions. No, no. I am being serious.

And if I came on strong there I apologize- seriously.

I did not notice until 2 minutes ago that this section is labeled FELLOWSHIP rather than debate.

Heated debate has no place here.

Thank you for handling it as you did. :applause:

 

Yes, I am sure. I provided proof a few pages back that Carey was a warm evangelical Calvinist who is VERY MUCH like most Baptist Calvinists today.

The idea that the Gospel is not for all is not Calvinism- it is hyper Calvinism.

The Gospel is not to be proffered but proclaimed to all.

That is what Carey and the Calvinist founders of the modern missions movement of which John is a part believed.

 

You keep saying "Gillites this" and "Gillites that" yet Gill himself believed the Gospel should be preached indiscriminately to all.

 

From your prospective & understanding Squire, Is the gospel for the non elect? Please advise

 

The term "his followers" needs to be qualified. John Gill was admired and respected far beyond a narrow group of "followers." Abraham Booth and Christmas Evans are just two that come to mind. And they weren't the least restrictive in their preaching --just like John Gill.

 

Here are some quotes I have gathered. They are not all Baptist. Some of them I don't even have the original source. I hope they may be of some benefit.

When someone asked General Booth the secret of his success, he said, "God has had all there was of me to have! From the day I got the poor of London on my heart, and a vision of what Jesus Christ would do for them, I made up my mind that God would have all there was of William Booth. God has had all the adoration of my heart, all the power of my will, and all the influence of my life."

John Wesley said, "Give me a hundred men who fear nothing but God, and I will shake the world: I care not a straw whether they be clergymen or laymen; and such alone will overthrow the kingdom of Satan and build up the Kingdom of God on earth."

Livingstone literally spent himself in untiring service for those whom he had no reason to love except for Christ's sake. Stanley wrote in his journal, "When I saw that unwearied patience, that unflagging zeal, and those enlightened sons of Africa, I became a Christian at his side, though he never spoke to me one word."

There has never been a time when missions was more vital than today. As Arden Almquist has indicated in Missionary Come Back, Africa is at a time of decision. "A hundred million animists in Africa alone will decide in our lifetime whether to become Christian, Muslim or agnostic."

David Livingstone wrote in his journal on one occasion concerning his "selfless" life:
People talk of the sacrifice I have made in spending so much of my life in Africa. Can that be called a sacrifice which is simply paying back a small part of the great debt owing to our God, which we can never repay? Is that a sacrifice which brings its own blest reward in healthful activity, the consciousness of doing good, peace of mind and a bright hope of glorious destiny hereafter? Away with the word in such a view and with such a thought! It is emphatically no sacrifice. Say rather it is a privilege.
-- Giving and Living, by Samuel Young, Baker Book House, p.71


How They Prayed (from the Wesleyan Methodist)

George Whitefield: "O Lord, give me souls, or take my soul!"

Henry Martyn: "Here let me burn out for God."

David Brainerd: "Lord, to thee I dedicate myself. O accept me, and let me be Thine forever. Lord, I desire nothing else, I desire nothing more."

Thomas a'Kempis: "Give what Thou wilt, and how much Thou wilt, and when Thou wilt. Set me where Thou wilt and deal with me in all things just as Thou wilt."

Dwight L. Moody: "Use me then, my Saviour, for whatever purpose and in whatever way Thou mayest require. Here is my poor heart, an empty vessel; fill it with Thy grace."

Martin Luther: "Do Thou, my God, do Thou, God, stand by me against all the world's wisdom and reason. O do it! Thou must do it! Stand by me, Thou True, Eternal God!"

John McKenzie (missionary candidate): "O Lord, send me to the darkest spot on earth!"
("Perhaps Today," Prophetic Newsmagazine by Jack Van Impe, Many/June 1982 Vol. 3 No. 1)

 

I agree. Quotes like that often motivate me. As far as the prayers, the one that sounds the most "Calvinistic" oddly enough is Thomas a'Kempis, who was a Catholic that lived in the second half of the 14th century. He copied two Bibles in 10 volumes each. Was he a "Catholic Calvinist"?

 

I don't think Thomas a Kempis was a Calvinist of any sort. However,have you ever heard of Jansenism? You're a former Roman Catholic. You must of heard about them. They came as close as you can come to being Calvinistic while remaining and holding fast to most Roman Catholic dogma. The Jesuits were deadset against them. That's a good sign.

Otto Jansen (1585-1638) started the Calvinistic ball rolling in the Port Royal area. Blaise Pascal (1623-1662) was a leader in the movement as well as Quesnel (1634-1719).

A great many of their propositions were deemed heretical by the Roman Catholic authorities. The following was condemned by the R.C. higher-ups :"It is semi-Pelagian to say Christ died for all."

While reading J.C.Ryle in the mid-eighties I first heard the mention of Jansenism. They stayed true to much of Augustianism.

 

I wasn't looking to start a debate. Apparently Pascal was the most famous of the Jansenists. There must have been a lot of division around that time in the RCC with opposition to the writings of Augustine.
But this is a bit off topic.