[it was] very good. Perfect?

[percho]

If a perfect man was created and put in a perfect world, why and how do we find the serpent/Satan in the garden of God?

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: James 1:13

Just what was in the mind of God? Is this relative to the question from Jer. 7:31?

Marvel not I say unto you,

 

[quantumfaith]

If a perfect man was created and put in a perfect world, why and how do we find the serpent/Satan in the garden of God?

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: James 1:13

Just what was in the mind of God? Is this relative to the question from Jer. 7:31?

Marvel not I say unto you,

Does the hebrew "very good" mean or imply "perfect"? I don't know, simply asking.

 

[Benjamin]

I see a picture of the “why and how” of Satan arriving in the garden going something like this:

Satan was also created perfect but God found iniquity in him after he got caught up in his wisdom and beauty (he had knowledge, took pride, thinking he could be as God, but this is where he fell short, sinned and was lawless) and God cast him down to the ground. The Liar comes unto the scene in the garden/beginning of creation and tempted Adam and Eve telling them that if they gained knowledge of good and evil they could be as gods; thus the fall of man and subsequent offer of redemption revealed through God’s loving grace for love of the truth/light that He put into the world for His creatures. There is Only One God and only He is perfect in judgment between good and evil. There is only One that is Good, One that is Righteous, One that will make the final judgment in all things, that is “His” Way and He is LORD of all. He is Love. …this stuff makes me wanna start preachin…ha…I’ll stop…consider the below scriptures:

Eze 28:14-18
(14) Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
(15) Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
(16) By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
(17) Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
(18) Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

 

[stilllearning]

Hi Percho
A very interesting and thought provoking thread.

It brought to mind this statement.......
Colossians 1:16
“For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:”

God who is in complete control, had a plan for Satan in the garden, that is beyond our comprehension.
--------------------------------------------------
God allowed a perfect world to become the world that we know today, because He has a plan.

All we should want to do, is to be a part of that plan; And we are, every time we are obedient to Him.

 

[Aaron]

Hi Percho
A very interesting and thought provoking thread.

It brought to mind this statement.......
Colossians 1:16
“For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:”

God who is in complete control, had a plan for Satan in the garden, that is beyond our comprehension.
--------------------------------------------------
God allowed a perfect world to become the world that we know today, because He has a plan.

All we should want to do, is to be a part of that plan; And we are, every time we are obedient to Him.

:thumbs::thumbs:

I would only add that we are part of His plan, even when not obedient. Is there one here who is not disobedient a thousand times a day?

 

[kyredneck]

If a perfect man was created and put in a perfect world, why and how do we find the serpent/Satan in the garden of God?

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: James 1:13

Just what was in the mind of God? Is this relative to the question from Jer. 7:31?

Marvel not I say unto you,

It is my humble opinion that God, knowing the iniquity that lied within Lucifer, provoked him to jealousy by putting man in the garden. I believe Satan had not actually openly rebelled until he tempted Eve.

 

[Winman]

I don't think God can create absolute perfection, for only he is absolutely perfect. Anything God would create must be inferior to him, if only for the fact it is a creation. God is not a creation, he was not created, he is the Creator.

So, I think when it says Satan was perfect when he was created, it is speaking of sinlessness. Satan was very good, just like Adam and Eve were very good. They were without sin when they were created. Sin is not a nature, sin is something you do, something you perform.

The difference is Satan, the angels, and Adam and Eve all had the ability to sin, else they could not have done so, while it is impossible for God to sin. So, Satan, the angels, and Adam and Eve were NEVER equal to God, nor could they ever be.

This proves you do not have to have a sin nature to sin. Neither Satan, the fallen angels, or Adam and Eve were created with a sinful nature, yet all were able and did sin.

 

[percho]

Does the hebrew "very good" mean or imply "perfect"? I don't know, simply asking.

I don't know either it's just so many think Adam fell from a perfect state when Satan was there all along.

Interlinear has very good.

 

[percho]

Hi Percho
A very interesting and thought provoking thread.

It brought to mind this statement.......
Colossians 1:16
“For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:”

God who is in complete control, had a plan for Satan in the garden, that is beyond our comprehension.
--------------------------------------------------
God allowed a perfect world to become the world that we know today, because He has a plan.

All we should want to do, is to be a part of that plan; And we are, every time we are obedient to Him.

Methinks God may have been setting him up to be destroyed through the physical man. see Heb. 2:14 I'll post

Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

 

[percho]

It is my humble opinion that God, knowing the iniquity that lied within Lucifer, provoked him to jealousy by putting man in the garden. I believe Satan had not actually openly rebelled until he tempted Eve.

I disagree with that however it is a thought to think about. It's just that I'm old earth and believe the rebellion of Satan was aeons before which resulted in darkness being upon the face of the deep.

But I didn't start thread for that purpose. I just don't think God created Adam and his world all hunky dory and Adam sinned and messed things up. I believe before God created him death and hell were enroute, see the Lamb slain.

 

[Aaron]

I don't think God can create absolute perfection, for only he is absolutely perfect.

Then God can't save us.

 

[percho]

I don't think God can create absolute perfection, for only he is absolutely perfect. Anything God would create must be inferior to him, if only for the fact it is a creation. God is not a creation, he was not created, he is the Creator.

So, I think when it says Satan was perfect when he was created, it is speaking of sinlessness. Satan was very good, just like Adam and Eve were very good. They were without sin when they were created. Sin is not a nature, sin is something you do, something you perform.

The difference is Satan, the angels, and Adam and Eve all had the ability to sin, else they could not have done so, while it is impossible for God to sin. So, Satan, the angels, and Adam and Eve were NEVER equal to God, nor could they ever be.

This proves you do not have to have a sin nature to sin. Neither Satan, the fallen angels, or Adam and Eve were created with a sinful nature, yet all were able and did sin.

I may would and think I do agree that by fiat God could not speak absolute perfection into creation, however what if he who speaks that is the Word became flesh, that which he created and died and then was given life again, that is being born from the dead, thus overcoming and destroying in reality the last enemy and he who had the power thereof, would that bring forth perfection in MAN, he being a new creation from which others could also be born of the Spirit of the creator?

That was a long question. Hope it makes some sense.

 

[quantumfaith]

I don't think God can create absolute perfection, for only he is absolutely perfect. Anything God would create must be inferior to him, if only for the fact it is a creation. God is not a creation, he was not created, he is the Creator.

So, I think when it says Satan was perfect when he was created, it is speaking of sinlessness. Satan was very good, just like Adam and Eve were very good. They were without sin when they were created. Sin is not a nature, sin is something you do, something you perform.

The difference is Satan, the angels, and Adam and Eve all had the ability to sin, else they could not have done so, while it is impossible for God to sin. So, Satan, the angels, and Adam and Eve were NEVER equal to God, nor could they ever be.

This proves you do not have to have a sin nature to sin. Neither Satan, the fallen angels, or Adam and Eve were created with a sinful nature, yet all were able and did sin.

I do understand your meaning and intent here, however, I would always err with caution regarding what God can or cannot do. I find it "difficult" to believe that HE could not create perfection in creatures.

 

[Winman]

I do understand your meaning and intent here, however, I would always err with caution regarding what God can or cannot do. I find it "difficult" to believe that HE could not create perfection in creatures.

How can anyone be equal to God? Whatever attribute God has, he is the ultimate pinnacle of that attribute, how can anyone be equal to God in any attribute he has?

God cannot create himself. How can God create a being that was not created?

 

[quantumfaith]

How can anyone be equal to God? Whatever attribute God has, he is the ultimate pinnacle of that attribute, how can anyone be equal to God in any attribute he has?

God cannot create himself. How can God create a being that was not created?

Well I would simply say, that "perfect creatures" are still just that "creatures". Not sure if that philosophically or logically implies that they share ALL attributes of God.

 

[kyredneck]

I disagree with that however it is a thought to think about. It's just that I'm old earth and believe the rebellion of Satan was aeons before which resulted in darkness being upon the face of the deep.

But I didn't start thread for that purpose. I just don't think God created Adam and his world all hunky dory and Adam sinned and messed things up. I believe before God created him death and hell were enroute, see the Lamb slain.

I'm not convinced that has to absolutely rule out an old earth stance. It may not have been Satan's rebellion that brought darkness upon the face of the deep, it just may have been his inability or negligence that caused the chaos. Don't know, pure speculation; it's just that it fits nicely within the continuity of the jealousy/envy/enmity of the firstborn towards the second born throughout the scripture. Satan was in the garden first (which I believe God did make to be a very pleasant place) and deeply resented God's insertion of Adam into it; and God would know beforehand that he would deeply resent it....

 

[Winman]

Then God can't save us.

We are saved because we are baptized into his body, we become part of him.

We become partakers of the divine nature. If we are perfect in heaven, it is his divine nature in us.

1 Cor 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

2 Pet 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

When two parents come together, a child is born. That child partakes of each parent's physical qualities, yet that child is a new creation. You are not your parents, you are an individual, although you share some qualities of each parent.

When a person accepts Christ, their spirit is joined to Christ's spirit and you become a new creation (born again). Nevertheless, you are a complete individual. Now you are a partaker, you share in his Spirit. This is all that is good in you.

Jn 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

 

[quantumfaith]

Percho,

You might find the book "The End of Christianity" by William Dembski an interesting and informative take on theodicy. I found his premises quite interesting.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/0805427430/?tag=baptis04-20

 

[Winman]

Well I would simply say, that "perfect creatures" are still just that "creatures". Not sure if that philosophically or logically implies that they share ALL attributes of God.

If Adam and Eve were perfect, then they would have been God. God can do all things, but he cannot create himself. He cannot create something or someone as perfect as himself.

The scriptures say God cannot sin, but Satan, the angels, and man could sin. We are inferior to God. If we were created without the ability to sin, we would be equal with God which is impossible. God cannot make something as perfect as himself.

 

[Aaron]

You're saying God can not create an incorruptible being, but His new creation is incorruptible. Sin will no more enter in, and when we see Him, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.