God: The Micromanager

Ahhhh now you have hit on something Don Gods love for his creation or is the correct love for His Elect? The alternative of His elect is the non-elect. Are you asking what happens to them? What do you think happens to them?

 

Don....is it hearing the gospel that saves you? Actually only by the direct operation of the Holy Spirit can eternal life be brought to the dead sinner (John 3 : 6-8) .The gospel brings life and immortality to light, but doesn't produce life (2 Tim.1: 10).

 

And THIS has always been the real question between calvinism and arminianism: understanding election.

I'm not asking what happens to the non-elect; scripture is quite clear. I'm pointing out that Winman's post addresses love for *all* of His creation (which is true)...but doesn't address the difference between the saved and unsaved.

 

Yes, it's hearing. Yes, an argument can be made for the Spirit quickening us; but as stated in Ephesians 2:8, we are saved by faith; and Romans 10:10 is quite clear that man believes unto righteousness, and further goes on to say in 10:17 that faith comes by hearing.

Since you bring up Jesus' conversation with Nicodemus, don't forget that just a few verses down, Jesus also tells Nicodemus that "whosoever believeth on Him should have everlasting life."

We could nitpick this to pieces, but the final word for me comes in John:
6:29 This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent;
6:35 he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst;
6:37 him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out;
6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day

So of course, that discussion then evolves into whether belief is caused by God, or is a function of man; and can also be discussed as "belief in God, or saving belief/faith"; but I'm not sure if that would be completely off the opening post or not.

 

Uh, Bro. Don, we are saved by grace, and not faith. Faith is what justifies us, but grace is what saves us. You can have all the faith in the world(theorhetically), and without grace, die and torment forever. Now, faith is the channel by which grace travels. It is by grace through faith that we are saved, and not faith through grace.

Not nitpicking on you Brother, but this is how I see it. May God bless.

 

And folks, before this turns into yet another mere "calvinism vice arminianism" thread, please let us remember the conversation between that noted calvinist Simeon and the noted arminian Wesley. I would hope that we can all affirm what both Simeon and Wesley said here, and be able to celebrate together in commonality toward Christ, whatever else remains in disagreement.

In this regard, here is the famous conversation between Calvinist Charles Simeon (1759-1836) and Arminian John Wesley (1703-1791) concerning that which they could affirm together.

[Simeon] Sir, I understand that you are called an Arminian; and I have been sometimes called a Calvinist; and therefore I suppose we are to draw daggers. But before I consent to begin the combat, with your permission I will ask you a few questions. Pray, Sir, do you feel yourself a depraved creature, so depraved that you would never have thought of turning to God, if God had not first put it into your heart?
[Wesley] Yes, I do indeed.
[Simeon] And do you utterly despair of recommending yourself to God by anything you can do; and look for salvation solely through the blood and righteousness of Christ?
[Wesley] Yes, solely through Christ.
[Simeon] But, Sir, supposing you were at first saved by Christ, are you not somehow or other to save yourself afterwards by your own works?
[Wesley] No, I must be saved by Christ from first to last.
[Simeon] Allowing, then, that you were first turned by the grace of God, are you not in some way or other to keep yourself by your own power?
[Wesley] No.
[Simeon] What then, are you to be upheld every hour and every moment by God, as much as an infant in its mother’s arms?
[Wesley] Yes, altogether.
[Simeon] And is all your hope in the grace and mercy of God to preserve you unto His heavenly kingdom?
[Wesley] Yes, I have no hope but in Him.
[Simeon] Then, Sir, with your leave I will put up my dagger again; for this is all my Calvinism; this is my election my justification by faith, my final perseverance: it is in substance all that I hold, and as I hold it; and therefore, if you please, instead of searching out terms and phrases to be a ground of contention between us, we will cordially unite in those things where in we agree.
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You're absolutely correct. Misquote on my part, as I was thinking through other portions of my response. Thanks for pointing out the clarification.

 

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs: and for good measure .....:thumbsup:

 

You're welcome Brother. We all have Freudian slips from time to time, I reckon.

 

Then they were unified by the work of Christ.

That's very good, thanks for that.

If only today we were all in such agreement, but we are not all, and I fear that those posed questions by the one would be dismantled by others, calling into question true biblical soteriology.

- Peace

 

I am glad to see another brother agree that we are saved by grace.

 

Amen....:thumbs:

 

On this we can all agree.... Amen:1_grouphug:

 

Agree, if we "stop" right there, "for by grace"..... No one here in BB land disagrees.

 

Wow agreement....building bridges :laugh:

 

Speaking as the resident Amyralsist on the BB...

I would have to say that the God of the Bible is NOT the God portarted by Hyper calvinism though!

God fully reamins in control at all times in all situations, in thast he can choose to "step in" at any time BUT

He also has chosen to work through BOTH His deterned ordaining directly Will, and His allowing others to make their decisions, but in the end, ALl things work together according to His divine plans and purposes!

 

YES! :thumbs:

 

We should've taken an offering before your message! :thumbsup:

 

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs: