This is the Third day

[percho]

He did not say "is there not twenty four hours in a day" but he divided the Jewish day into evening and morning (daylight) thus justifyiing the division of the day into two parts each consisting of "twelve hours."

No one argues that there is not 24 hours in a WHOLE DAY but the Bible never says anywhere that Christ would be in the Grave three WHOLE days or even three WHOLE nights and three WHOLE days. Hence, my use of human logic has more of Biblical basis than your use of human logic as He does divide the whole day into TWO PARTS just as I have done and we know he was not in the grave the WHOLE 12 hours of Sunday EVENING neither was he in the grave 12 whole hours on Thursday DAY [morning aspect of thursday beginning at 6 am and ending at 6 pm on thursday) when he was actually buried.

Well being he assigned twelve hours to the daylight part of a day, let's go with that. He was in the heart of the earth for thirty six hours of daylight time. Where does that leave us? Well let's see twelve hours of daylight on Saturday, twelve more on Friday and twelve on Thursday puts to about 6 AM Thursday morning. The nights, oops the nights wont work with time of death and burial. We'll have to start over.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Well being he assigned twelve hours to the daylight part of a day, let's go with that. He was in the heart of the earth for thirty six hours of daylight time. Where does that leave us? Well let's see twelve hours of daylight on Saturday, twelve more on Friday and twelve on Thursday puts to about 6 AM Thursday morning. The nights, oops the nights wont work with time of death and burial. We'll have to start over.

To state the fact that 12 hours exists in a day does not mean that less than twelve hours discounts that as being reckoned as a day. It only means that there is no more than 12 hours reckoned as a day.

 

[ituttut]

GE:

Ituttut, I can stay calm speaking to you, fortunately. I think I know why. I think it's because I think you're honest.

Happy to see you and I can hold back, should we think someone is trying to tell us something; at least better than some other conversations as can be seen on the board. Takes us all to keep this old world on its toes.

Ituttut, read Exodus 12:15. It says,

"Seven days ye shall eat unleavened bread." Then it goes on to explain the chronology as well as methodology of passover days and events --- the 'when' and the 'how' of the passover days and events.

We do agree it does say seven days shall you eat.

Exodus 12:15 goes on to explain,


"Even the first day (of passover) ye shall PUT AWAY LEAVEN".

That is one day, the first day of passover, “when ye put away leaven”. Mark 14:12,17 Matthew 26:17,20 Luke 22:7,14 John 13:1,30; 19:14 1Corinthians 11:23 … and “they had to always kill the passover”. “The day BEFORE the Feast … The Preparation OF THE PASSOVER”!

We are going somewhere tomorrow. We are preparing to do so. Is today the 1st day, or will tomorrow be the 1st day? What we accomplish today (our Passover) will turn into tomorrow, day 1. Could we be saying the same thing?

Now the KJV renders the Hebrew, correctly, yes; it says,

"EVEN THE FIRST day ...".

The Hebrew actually is, "On the day the HEAD day / the VERY first day / the FIRST, first day ...".

Because the day on which the leaven was removed, was ...
... One, the very same day that they KILLED the passover sacrifice Exodus 12:6; and ...
... Two, was viewed as "The Preparation-of-the-Passover" John 19:14.

May I put it this way… all I have said is what you show John to say, viz. the Passover includes necessary preparation that same day; however the 7 days of the feast of unleavened bread does not begin until the next day, Nisan 15.

I think you have a problem though, with the English word, ‘evening’, in Exodus 12:6. It is a 1611 English word. The Hebrew word is ‘ereb’ which simply means, ‘late’. In modern English the best if not the only word for it in the context of the time the passover lamb was slaughtered, is ‘afternoon’. Therefore, afternoon ON the fourteenth day BEFORE sunset— LONG before sunset! Three hours exactly before sunset if Jesus’ death is regarded the norm. He died “the ninth hour”.

The Jews speak of ‘bedikat gamets’ – the ceremonial removal of leaven in the night before the lamb the following day would be SLAUGHTERED.

This is factored into what I have posted. The ninth (9th) hour of their day is 3PM our time. Their daytime started at 6AM, and nine (9) hours later it is 3PM.

Now on this “very first DAY”, dough “WITHOUT LEAVEN” had been ‘prepared’, and made ready so that when the Israelites just after midnight moved out, they “carried their dough on their shoulders, out”!

I have said, just as scriptures tell us, the dough was made ready before the 1st day of 7 days of Unleaned Bread, which day was Thursday Nisan 15. The Lord's Passover supper was consumed on the same day that He was slaughtered. And this dough had been prepared before the 15th of Nisan. No manual labor, such as making dough could be done that High Sabbath day, Thursday, Nisan 15.

Exodus 12 was written of course at a time much later than the exodus itself. But Exodus is the only book of the Torah that gives the history of the exodus AS it happened FROM WITHIN EGYPT, when, and where, days were reckoned sunrise to sunrise still. Therefore Abib 14 and 15 as it were MERGED, both days Abib 14 and 15 being dated the fourteenth in Exodus. That very first night after they had slaughtered the sacrifice, the Israelites HAD their dough prepared, and they ALREADY in THAT VERY FIRST NIGHT, ate bread of the unleavened dough. They ate “the flesh”, “WITH unleavened bread” in the night of their exodus. And that night is found dated the night of the FOURTEENTH day of the First Month. Exodus 12:6,8.

And I fully agree with Exodus 12:6-8, they are to eat unleavened bread on the 14th day of Nisan. But the feast of unleavened bread does not start until Nisan 15.

I see here


And that is why the Jews to this day have ‘Bedikat Gamets’ – the Removal of Leaven in the night of Abib 14 which while in Egypt was Abib 13 still.

I must say I previously thought they only ate the sacrifice and no unleavened bread. But the fact the Israelites ate unleavened bread “with the flesh” IN THE NIGHT OF THEIR EXODUS, has today been a new insight to me; an exiting first time discovery— for which I thank the Lord as well as my debaters.

The rest then is as I have been maintaining from long ago …
Exodus 12 continues in verse 15 to describe BOTH days or aspects of passover,
“Seven days shall ye eat unleavened bread …”

We have all been tweaked along the way. May I interject here what I have before posted, and stand by what is found in Leviticus 23:6, which to me is very clear. "And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the Lord: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread."

It also helps me to remember TWO things are involved.
One is a happening, the Fourteenth.
Followed by 7 days of u unleavened bread.

As follows …
… “The VERY FIRST day [Abib 14] ye shall PUT AWAY LEAVEN.”

So …

Exodus 12:18,
“Ye shall eat unleavened bread until the ONE AND TWENTIETH day in the night”—
Evening after sunset 15 Abib : first day unleavened bread;
Evening after sunset 16 Abib : second day unleavened bread;
Evening after sunset 17 Abib : third day unleavened bread;
Evening after sunset 18 Abib : fourth day unleavened bread;
Evening after sunset 19 Abib : fifth day unleavened bread;
Evening after sunset 20 Abib : sixth day unleavened bread;
Evening after sunset 21 Abib : seventh day unleavened bread.

Aren't you saying the same as I, begin on the 15th day to begin counting? It begins on Thursday, ending on Wednesday the 21st.

 

[ituttut]

GE:

Dear Ituttut, you should DISTINGUISH between "The Preparation OF THE PASSOVER" John 19:14 "the day BEFORE the feast" John 13:1,

and,

"The Preparation which is the Fore-Sabbath".

You should, but you do not.

Go do distinguish the two, separate days, and you'll see what I mean.

John 19:14, "And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!"

Jon 3:1 tells us the Lord's Supper was eaten on Nisan 14, shortly after 6pm, the starting of their 24-hour day. Then we se on that same day at noon, ", Behold your King!"

 

[ituttut]

Both you and GE have your nice little games of mental gynastics that you play with God's Word. You both have a LOGICAL basis for your positions but both of you begin at the same bottom line - HUMAN LOGIC rather than explicit scriptures.
For example. Show me just one scripture where it is said explicitly that a "day" must be a full 24 hours and that a part of day cannot be reckoned as a whole in Jewish thinking? For example, on several occassions Jesus spent the night in prayer. According to your LOGIC he must have begun his prayer at 6 pm sharp or when the sun went down and ended his praying at 6 am sharp or when the sun gave first light or a full 12 hours or else he did not spend the "night" in prayer.

In Genesis chapter 1 God tells us how many hours are in a day. Dark separated from light with 12 hours of dark, and 12 of light. I have never said a part of a day cannot be counted; but when a part of a day Is Counted it must then go i8nto the next day, then the next day, and into the third day. This then will accomplish the seventy-two hours that Jonah was in the Fish, and Jesus was in the Heart of the earth.

I ask you a question please. Why is it you believe the Jew today, they that have been blinded, and those before that killed Messiah? They were, and are (those blinded) just as were the Apostles we see in Luke 18:32-34."For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on:
33. And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again. 34. And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken".

Is it not you that believe the logic of men, those that are today blinded? Jesus said He would, and He did send the Comforter to them. Then and only then did they understand (not what hadn't been told to any man YET, PAUL), but only whatever He had told them.

Oh if only we would just believe what Jesus said on earth, and then what He says to us from Heaven. Oh if only we would believe Peter when he tells us we had better understand Paul, and then John confirms much later the things that Paul wrote to us. Peter props up Paul at one end of the bookshelf, and then John at the other end with his gospel.

John then seals the scriptures as he finishes speaking to God's people, Israel, in the book of Revelation. God gave to each one a Book to write to His People, Daniel 12:1. Then in verse 4 we find God intends to have someone else close out the TIME of The GENTILES in another book. That Book of Revelation wrote by John finishes out the Book of Daniel. Both of these Books are written to Israel, God's people to whom He has pro0mised this earth. And when that day comes (after our Rapture) the Jew will no longer be subject to the Gentile, but just the other way around. For all eternity the Gentile will be servants (those not in the Body of Christ) to Israel, and Israel will go and worship their God. Their servants, the Gentile may also go along with them.

Won't we in the Body of Christ be With Him, when God's people come to worship?

All your figuring is based upon logic, based upon an IMAGINED knowledge of the precise calendar year he died which in turn is based upon an IMAGINED knowledge of the precise calendar year he was born because every year Nisan 13-17 does not fall on the same days of the week.

I am not sure you have read what I have before written. Nisan 14th can fall on any day of the week, but Nisan 14 fell on a Wednesday the year Jesus was crucified.

My position is based upon the fact that Sunday "THIS IS" the third day since he was crucified (Lk. 24:21) and that Luke also says that he rose "the third day." Simple, clear and easy to verify regardless of what year he was born or died.

But doesn't your logic contradict other scripture? Doesn't Matthew 27:63-64 tell you, you are wrong? "Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again.
64. Command therefore that the sepulchre be made sure until the third day, lest his disciples come by night, and steal him away, and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead: so the last error shall be worse than the first." This is Nisan 15, Thursday, when this conversation is taking place. The Third day is Sunday. This is the day that Jesus will bodily leave the tomb, and the guards were there when the stone was rolled away on that Sunday, i.e. if we believe the Bible, and not man.

Luke 24:46 tells us plainly"And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:" Jesus did die, and then arose from the dead. His soul and spirit arose from the dead and entered His body on that Saturday Sabbath. But when was the stone rolled away?

We are told in Matthew 27:66, "So they went and made the tomb secure, sealing the stone and setting the guard." What day was this done? It had to be the next day, for Joseph had rolled the stone into place just as Nisan 14 was ending. Joseph, and the women could do nothing else for now it was Nisan 15, a High Sabbath day. So on Thursday the guards sealed the stone. Jesus did not leave the Tomb until the stone was rolled away by an angel, and that was on Sunday before the women arrived at the tomb.

In Jonah we see he was in the fish three days and three nights. On the third day the fish deposited Jonah on dry ground. Then being alive, Johan was told, ARISE now, and go into Nineveh. Did Jesus also say Three days and nights? After reviving, just like Jonah, didn't Jesus then Arise and go forth after the stone was rolled away? We know there are two raisings in both cases. The bars of hell were not allowed to hold either man, so they both arose from the dead. Is there not then another arising from the ground by both men?

Jesus says in Mark 8:31, "And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again" I just don’t understand why Christians refuse to believe Jesus. Even Pilate believed this truth, as did the guards. This is written down for us, and still so many reject flat out what Jesus says. Your understanding in this matter just has too many contradictions.

 

[Dr. Walter]

In Genesis chapter 1 God tells us how many hours are in a day. Dark separated from light with 12 hours of dark, and 12 of light.

Genesis one says no such thing. The only reckoning of days in Genesis is TWO parts - evening and morning and that is precisely how I reckoned the days in my discussion of Luke 24:21 and the "third day."

I have never said a part of a day cannot be counted; but when a part of a day Is Counted it must then go i8nto the next day,

Says who? Says what text??

I am not sure you have read what I have before written. Nisan 14th can fall on any day of the week, but Nisan 14 fell on a Wednesday the year Jesus was crucified.

How do you know what year he died? How do you know what year he was born? In order to define the precise year he died you must know the precise year he was born.

But doesn't your logic contradict other scripture? Doesn't Matthew 27:63-64 tell you, you are wrong? "Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again.
64. Command therefore that the sepulchre be made sure until the third day, lest his disciples come by night, and steal him away, and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead: so the last error shall be worse than the first." This is Nisan 15, Thursday, when this conversation is taking place. The Third day is Sunday. This is the day that Jesus will bodily leave the tomb, and the guards were there when the stone was rolled away on that Sunday, i.e. if we believe the Bible, and not man.

Luke 24:46 tells us plainly"And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:" Jesus did die, and then arose from the dead. His soul and spirit arose from the dead and entered His body on that Saturday Sabbath. But when was the stone rolled away?

We are told in Matthew 27:66, "So they went and made the tomb secure, sealing the stone and setting the guard." What day was this done? It had to be the next day, for Joseph had rolled the stone into place just as Nisan 14 was ending. Joseph, and the women could do nothing else for now it was Nisan 15, a High Sabbath day. So on Thursday the guards sealed the stone. Jesus did not leave the Tomb until the stone was rolled away by an angel, and that was on Sunday before the women arrived at the tomb.

I don't see how you can argue that the above scriptures present anything contrary to my interpretation of Luke 24:21?? Matthew 27:60 tells you plainly that they made this petition "on the next day" and therefore they were including that day in their count which would again make Sunday the "third day." Matthew does not use the preposition "apo"!!!! The "next day" would begin at 6 pm that evening and end 6pm the following evening. Again, it perfectly fits my position without flaw!

 

[ituttut]

The closest I could come.
Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world. But if a man walk in the night, he stumbleth, because there is no light in him.

Had to use a little human logic.

He either prayed from dusk to dawn or you have to use some human logic to say he did not.

Like that.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Like that.

There is no argument that the evening and morning of a Jewish day consists of 24 hours. Jesus obviously is referring to the "morning" aspect or daylight portion.

My position and my method of counting whole days is exactly as Jesus does here into two divisions and just like God's Word does from the first chapter of Genesis - evening (12 hours - 6pm to 6am) and morning (6am to 6pm).

However, Jesus uses the term "day" in the very text quoted for something less than 24 hours as he specifically says 12 hours. Hence, I do not believe that my position is unbiblical at all or unreasonable at all but in perfect keeping with the scriptures and with Luke 21:24.

 

[percho]

There is no argument that the evening and morning of a Jewish day consists of 24 hours. Jesus obviously is referring to the "morning" aspect or daylight portion.

My position and my method of counting whole days is exactly as Jesus does here into two divisions and just like God's Word does from the first chapter of Genesis - evening (12 hours - 6pm to 6am) and morning (6am to 6pm).

However, Jesus uses the term "day" in the very text quoted for something less than 24 hours as he specifically says 12 hours. Hence, I do not believe that my position is unbiblical at all or unreasonable at all but in perfect keeping with the scriptures and with Luke 21:24.

Thanks Dr, Walter.

For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Would you care to suggest the minimum number and maximum number of hours Jonas was in the fish and that the Son of Man was in the heart of the earth or is there just one answer?



Just as an exercise for I do not necessarily Believe it proves anything, however it could be relevant. Genesis 22:1-12 your best guess on how many hours passed from the time God told Abraham to offer Isaac until verses 11,12 When Hebrews 11:19 would have applied. Heb. 11:19 Accounting that God [was] able to raise [him] up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.
This also would have been in, on, after the third day.

 

[ituttut]

Genesis one says no such thing. The only reckoning of days in Genesis is TWO parts - evening and morning and that is precisely how I reckoned the days in my discussion of Luke 24:21 and the "third day."

This is a good place to again listen to what God says. Genesis 1:5, "And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day". Why do you contradict yourself? You start by saying the above verse does not say what it says. And then you turn right around, and then say you actually do believe what He says for you speak of a Third day. Won't two days have to pass before coming to your Third Day?

So as you deny, and then accept the truth, you then in error choose the wrong day that Jesus was crucified.

This is evidently what you are contending, so I'm not putting words into your mouth. What you have determined just cannot be for as your fuzziness of hours in a day, so is your fuzziness of choosing a day. You say Jesus' crucifixion happened on a Thursday. If I am wrong then please correct me. It won't hurt my feelings.

You say Sunday, and I also say it is a Sunday. But I cannot agree with your understanding in this matter in Luke. Please try to0 follow what I am saying.

It is Sunday in the afternoon when they are talking. When do the women discover that the stone has been rolled away, and Jesus' body is not in the Tomb? The women arrived just as the sun was coming up, about 6AM. This of course tells us 12 hours of that First Day has passed. Surely you cannot say this is not right as to how God told His people to count their Full Days, i.e. beginning at night at sunset, then ending of the daytime.

Please take a moment to see if I am reading you correctly. They are talking a good number of hours after Sunday started, but as they walk and talk it is still Sunday. And we also know we can count from 6AM Sunday to 6AM Saturday, which is 24 hours. = 1 day.

Saturday to Friday = 2 days.

Friday to Thursday = 3 days. From 6AM on Sunday to 6AM on Thursday is 72 hours. So there is your three days YOU are talking about. But as I've said before, this is not what Luke is saying.

I believe the above is what you are saying, and trying to incorporate what you see in verse 18 into the Three Days, which says in part "the things which are come to pass there in these days?" I disagree for this is not what Luke 24:20-21 says. What Luke tells us for understanding the three-days that came after Jesus' burial. Verses 20:21, "And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him. 21. But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done. What was done BEFORE the Three Days?

Jesus was crucified, and placed into the tomb on Preparation Day, Nisan 14. This is the day before that High Sabbath Day of Nisan 15, which is the first day of the feast of Unleavened Bread. This is Thursday, and as shown above is the Three Days that they are referring to. Jesus Christ does not correct them, so it must be so.

Says who? Says what text??

I thought everyone knew when one day ends, it goes right into the next day. You know, Monday is over, and just when it is over Tuesday starts.

How do you know what year he died? How do you know what year he was born? In order to define the precise year he died you must know the precise year he was born.

I believe you asked me this question before. I'll answer has I most likely did before. I have never said I knew the year that He was crucified; I also don't know the year He was born.

I don't see how you can argue that the above scriptures present anything contrary to my interpretation of Luke 24:21?? Matthew 27:60 tells you plainly that they made this petition "on the next day" and therefore they were including that day in their count which would again make Sunday the "third day." Matthew does not use the preposition "apo"!!!! The "next day" would begin at 6 pm that evening and end 6pm the following evening. Again, it perfectly fits my position without flaw!

See above that disproves your understanding of Luke above.

Matthew only confirms what I said in reference to chapter 27:62-64, "Now the next day, that followed the day of the preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate,
63. Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again.
64. Command therefore that the sepulchre be made sure until the third day, lest his disciples come by night, and steal him away, and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead: so the last error shall be worse than the first."

It shows this is Thursday, the day after Jesus was crucified, laid in the tomb, and the stone rolled into place. Thursday will get you to Sunday, but Jesus had to be in the tomb while it was still considered to be day light hours. Why? Because Jesus is the Passover, and Passover cannot begin until God's people swab on the blood over their lintel's, and on the two side posts. No manual work can be done on the next day, Thursday, for it is always a High Sabbath to God's people.

 

[Dr. Walter]

You are really very confusing to read. However, I will try to accomodate your questions.

This is a good place to again listen to what God says. Genesis 1:5, "And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day". Why do you contradict yourself? You start by saying the above verse does not say what it says.

I really don't understand your logic here at all. All I have done is defend myself against the accusation that it is unbiblical to count days according to the Jewish TWO PART reckoning of morning and evening. Since this is precisely how I counted the days from Sunday to Thursday in regard to Luke 24:21. This is precisely how Moses counted the days in Genesis one and in the very verse you quoted. The light he called day which equals "morning" of the day and the darkness he called night which equals the "evening" of the day. Hence, the day has two equal parts and hence they are reckoned as "evening" and "mornng." That is precisely how I reckoned the period of evening and mornings between the day of crucifixion and resurrection.

1. When the two said "third day" in Luke 21:24 they were in speaking in regard to the period between 6pm Saturday evening and 6 pm Sunday night. His resurrection occurred in the "evening" period not the daylight period when they were speaking. They were correct in saying this was the "third day" but still ignorant He arose in the evening period before 6 am.


2. Luke 24:20-21 says nothing about burial or that they were reckoning any time beginning with his burial. This text referes only to what the rulers did to him not what his disciples did with his body and I quote:

20 And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him.21 But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.

So you are incorrect that they were reckoning the period between burial and resurrection BECAUSE THEY DID NOT EVEN KNOW of his resurrection and did not even RECOGNIZE him when saying this. So don't read into their words something that is not there. They were simply reckonizing that Sunday was the "third day" APO - AWAY FROM and OUTSIDE the day of crucifixion. They chose their words carefully. Your interpretation would require them to have used EK and the meaning three days INCLUDING the day of crucifixion and that is not what they said.

3. Hence, they were not talking about the period of time between burial and resurrection but the period of time between Thursday 6 pm and Sunday up to the time they spoke which included Saturday 6pm to Sunday 6pm.

4. They positively identified Saturday 6 pm and Sunday 6 pm as the "third day" since, away from the crucifixion day which was Wednesday 6pm to Thursday 6pm.

5. Now let's count backwards between the time of resurrection and the time of burial and three evenings and three mornings STILL brings us to the first day of the week or the "third day" in Luke 24:7

Luke 24:7 Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.

EVENING resurrection between 3am to 6am first day of the week - Sunday morn
MORNING in the grave between 6am to 6pm Seventh day of the week - Satuday
EVENING in the grave between 6pm to 6am Seventh day of the week -Fri-Sat
MORNING in the grave between 6am to 6pm Sixth day of the week - Friday
EVENING in the grave between 6pm to 6am Sixth day of the week - Thurs-Frid
MORNING in the grave between 4pm to 6pm Fifth day of the week - Thurs.

Your calculation would require not only the full morning period of Thursday but also the FULL evening period of Thursday PLUS part of Wednesday and thus make it

1. Around 10 hours on the First day of the week - Sat. 6-pm to 4-5 am.
2. 24 hours between Friday 6pm to Saturday 6pm
3. 24 hours between Thursday 6pm to Friday 6pm
4. 24 hours between Wednesday 6pm to Thursday 6pm
5. 1 hour on Wednesday

Add up the hours he was in the grave according to your theory and it is MORE than three days and three nights or 72 hours but at the very minimium 82 hours. if not 83 hours.

My position is the ONLY position that stays within some kind of 3 days and 3 night framework. Yours require FOUR evenings. The Saturday resurrection theory FALLS SHORT of 3 days any way you count it. The "good Friday" theory according to Roman time can't measure up to any kind of three day reckoning.

 

[ituttut]

You are really very confusing to read. However, I will try to accomodate your questions. .

Dear Dr., we do have a problem of understanding/misunderstanding each other.

I really don't understand your logic here at all. All I have done is defend myself against the accusation that it is unbiblical to count days according to the Jewish TWO PART reckoning of morning and evening. Since this is precisely how I counted the days from Sunday to Thursday in regard to Luke 24:21. This is precisely how Moses counted the days in Genesis one and in the very verse you quoted. The light he called day which equals "morning" of the day and the darkness he called night which equals the "evening" of the day. Hence, the day has two equal parts and hence they are reckoned as "evening" and "mornng." That is precisely how I reckoned the period of evening and mornings between the day of crucifixion and resurrection.

I don't understand why you attribute to me saying the Jewish way of counting a full day is unbiblical. We both seem to understand what the Jewish full day means. What I have said is there is a Fourth Day to be considered, and that is Nisan 14, the Preparation Day in order that the Blood could be applied before Nisan 15 begins.

Since I see Wednesday, and you see Thursday to be the day of crucifixion, we differ.

We are close, but a day apart. Perhaps I can answer all of your post with these few paragraphs.

What I see is 2 different three days being discussed. You are including, according to your reckoning the day that Jesus was crucified, and placed in the tomb.

I can see this in your post in the previous thread that was closed. It reads "3. Friday was the High Sabbath or first Sabbath day in feast of unleavened bread".

As you say Thursday crucifixion, are you not including this in your three days? Jesus said after three days in Mark 8:31-33.



I

 

[Dr. Walter]

We are close, but a day apart. Perhaps I can answer all of your post with these few paragraphs.

What I see is 2 different three days being discussed. You are including, according to your reckoning the day that Jesus was crucified, and placed in the tomb.

I can see this in your post in the previous thread that was closed. It reads "3. Friday was the High Sabbath or first Sabbath day in feast of unleavened bread".

As you say Thursday crucifixion, are you not including this in your three days? Jesus said after three days in Mark 8:31-33.

Your theory requires too many variables that cannot possibly be proven simply because you do not know the precise year of his birth or death. Second it require more than 72 hours in the grave. Third, Friday as a high sabbath does not contradict my position at all but perfectly fits with it. Fourth, "this is the third days SINCE" cannot possibly fit your position or the Saturday resurrection position.

 

[rstrats]

Maybe this has been answered, but if not, why do those who argue for a 7th day resurrection think that the guards were still at the tomb on the 1st day?

 

[Dr. Walter]

Maybe this has been answered, but if not, why do those who argue for a 7th day resurrection think that the guards were still at the tomb on the 1st day?

Exactly. I have pointed that out and never got a good answer. You would think that since they were scared out of their wits so they were like dead men, the last place they would be is hanging around the grave for another night and day since they passed the women coming to the grave on Sunday morning going to town.

 

[ituttut]

Your theory requires too many variables that cannot possibly be proven simply because you do not know the precise year of his birth or death.

I don't find it relevant the year be known to determine the day. What is relevant is the Day is determined, and then the year could be determined, but then by only guess work. No one knows for sure, as we know the various calendars are in error. However for those wizards that delve into such things could surely find at least One year back then that Nisan 14 fell on a Wednesday.

Since there is no other day that will work as to when Jesus died at 3pm, the stone rolled into place, and then the women arriving at Sunrise on Sunday, all other days (Friday, Thursday) must be in error.

Scripture says Three Days (Matthew 20:19; Mark 10:34; Luke 18:33, and 24:7), and I have shown this; but it also says after three days, and I have shown this.

Second it require more than 72 hours in the grave.

All that is required is 72 hours in the "heart of the earth", that is in Paradise.

Third, Friday as a high sabbath does not contradict my position at all but perfectly fits with it.

If it doesn't, then how can you include that fourth (4th) day, Nisan 14th), the day His blood was shed? You say it is on Thursday, and if so are you not saying this happened at 3pm? That being so then one day is accomplished at 3pm Friday. Two days are accomplished at 3pm Saturday, and then on the third day at 3pm Sunday you are saying Jesus arose from the grave. Do the women not prove this cannot be so?

Fourth, "this is the third days SINCE" cannot possibly fit your position or the Saturday resurrection position.

But doesn't scripture point us to a Sabbath resurrection in Matthew, Mark, and Luke above? But as said before, and as you contend, a Sunday coming forth is also taught in scripture, as we see in Matthew 27:63, and; Mark 8:31.

Scripture shows two, but who will believe what scripture says? Are we just to accept what man tells us ONLY, and discard the other truth?

 

[Dr. Walter]

I don't find it relevant the year be known to determine the day. What is relevant is the Day is determined, and then the year could be determined, but then by only guess work. No one knows for sure, as we know the various calendars are in error. However for those wizards that delve into such things could surely find at least One year back then that Nisan 14 fell on a Wednesday.

Your reasoning is backwards. You first presume the day is Wednesday and then go find a year that will fit it!!! However, how are you going to establish the fact that Wednesday even comes into the picture as there is no textual evidence that says "Wednesday" or that the 14th fell on a Wednesday.

Since there is no other day that will work as to when Jesus died at 3pm, the stone rolled into place, and then the women arriving at Sunrise on Sunday, all other days (Friday, Thursday) must be in error.

Every day of the week has 3pm in it not just Wednesday. Moreover, nowhere in scripture does it say 72 hours from 3pm determines the exact point of resurrection as the very basis for that kind of reasoning is presumption in order to build another straw man presumption. Even your position denies it was precisely 72 hours in the grave but at least 83 hours and so this a complete straw man argument that your position cannot even measure up to.

Scripture says Three Days (Matthew 20:19; Mark 10:34; Luke 18:33, and 24:7), and I have shown this; but it also says after three days, and I have shown this.

Soooo, you just pick and choose huh???? My position does not require picking and choosing but harmonizes with every text above as no text above says 72 hours.

[

COLOR=black]All that is required is 72 hours in the "heart of the earth", that is in Paradise. [/COLOR]

Says who? What text says that? Where is that found? Answer: NOWHERE

If it doesn't, then how can you include that fourth (4th) day, Nisan 14th), the day His blood was shed? You say it is on Thursday, and if so are you not saying this happened at 3pm? That being so then one day is accomplished at 3pm Friday. Two days are accomplished at 3pm Saturday, and then on the third day at 3pm Sunday you are saying Jesus arose from the grave. Do the women not prove this cannot be so?

Build a straw man burn a straw man!!! Your very argument about a "fourth" day is based solely upon your own calculations while completely ignoring how I calculate it by evenings and mornings and you know it! You are intentionally perverting my position in order to build a straw man argument.
According to the evening and morning calculations it does not matter which reference of the "third day" you use as both will end up on Sunday. If you use the reference that uses the preposition "apo" (Lk. 21:24) with the resurrection occuring at sometime between 3am to 6pm you still have 3 evenings and 3 mornings. If you use the reference of the "third day" inclusive of the evening of Thursday it still ends up on Sunday afternoon between the crucifixion and the two walking on the road to Emaeus. Look at my calculations and you will clearly see that.

But doesn't scripture point us to a Sabbath resurrection in Matthew, Mark, and Luke above? But as said before, and as you contend, a Sunday coming forth is also taught in scripture, as we see in Matthew 27:63, and; Mark 8:31.

No possibility as there is no three days any way you want to count it - your way or my way or any way. Besides the langauge used in those texts permits a Sunday resurrection interpretation.

 

[ituttut]

Maybe this has been answered, but if not, why do those who argue for a 7th day resurrection think that the guards were still at the tomb on the 1st day?

Rstrats you and Dr. Walter bring up good points, and this is one of them

I personally believe Friday is out of the question for obvious reasons to any that have looked into the matter. Thursday looks good until the contradictions cannot be explained. Wednesday however is the criterion.

I see no problem with scripture showing a Sabbath soul and spirit rising up from the heart of the earth, to again join the body of Jesus. So this would fulfill prophecy. If He didn't, then prophecy was not fulfilled. Opposing this would surely led into error.

God spoke to Israel through Jonah, and Jesus says this is a sign to His people that He (Jesus) will be in the "heart of the earth" for seventy-two hours. Jesus dies at 3pm on Nisan 14. As the Jew counted, this means Jesus' soul and spirit was again joined with His body on Nisan 17, that Saturday Sabbath. There are others than seventh Days that believe this, such other Christians, as well as some Christians that come through Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Jesus' Body came to life on that Sabbath Saturday, but we are told His Body arose again on Sunday, when the stone was rolled away.

We know most Christians believe His coming forth on Sunday, which was Nisan 18, but cannot prove it. I believe scripture tells us He descended deep into the earth (not Body), then arising. Scripture also shows Jesus in His BODY emerging from the tomb on that Sunday morning.

Will those saved, when they die leave their Bodies? Will we then again be connected with the Body, and then bodily be raised up? It looks to me scripture tells us it is a two-step operation, for those who die.

I know this leaves the Rapture (which I believe in) unanswered, but we know the Rapture was unknown, and has no place in trying to make it fit into Prophecy.

 

[Dr. Walter]

I know of no such "prophecy" regarding the Sabbath resurrection! I know of no such scripture that states "72 hours." Wednesday is impossible to harmonize with scripture and Saturday resurrection is equally impossible. Christ may have died at 3pm but he was not buried at 3 pm.

Rstrats you and Dr. Walter bring up good points, and this is one of them

I personally believe Friday is out of the question for obvious reasons to any that have looked into the matter. Thursday looks good until the contradictions cannot be explained. Wednesday however is the criterion.

I see no problem with scripture showing a Sabbath soul and spirit rising up from the heart of the earth, to again join the body of Jesus. So this would fulfill prophecy. If He didn't, then prophecy was not fulfilled. Opposing this would surely led into error.

God spoke to Israel through Jonah, and Jesus says this is a sign to His people that He (Jesus) will be in the "heart of the earth" for seventy-two hours. Jesus dies at 3pm on Nisan 14. As the Jew counted, this means Jesus' soul and spirit was again joined with His body on Nisan 17, that Saturday Sabbath. There are others than seventh Days that believe this, such other Christians, as well as some Christians that come through Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Jesus' Body came to life on that Sabbath Saturday, but we are told His Body arose again on Sunday, when the stone was rolled away.

We know most Christians believe His coming forth on Sunday, which was Nisan 18, but cannot prove it. I believe scripture tells us He descended deep into the earth (not Body), then arising. Scripture also shows Jesus in His BODY emerging from the tomb on that Sunday morning.

Will those saved, when they die leave their Bodies? Will we then again be connected with the Body, and then bodily be raised up? It looks to me scripture tells us it is a two-step operation, for those who die.

I know this leaves the Rapture (which I believe in) unanswered, but we know the Rapture was unknown, and has no place in trying to make it fit into Prophecy.

 

[ituttut]

Your reasoning is backwards. You first presume the day is Wednesday and then go find a year that will fit it!!! However, how are you going to establish the fact that Wednesday even comes into the picture as there is no textual evidence that says "Wednesday" or that the 14th fell on a Wednesday.

Can you tell me the year? If not how do you know it was Thursday. You intimate that there are not 24 hours in a day, and a night, so it is impossible for you to determine what time church starts, or on what day you plan to go.

Every day of the week has 3pm in it not just Wednesday. Moreover, nowhere in scripture does it say 72 hours from 3pm determines the exact point of resurrection as the very basis for that kind of reasoning is presumption in order to build another straw man presumption. Even your position denies it was precisely 72 hours in the grave but at least 83 hours and so this a complete straw man argument that your position cannot even measure up to.

I see you are not reading my posts; refusing to see 72 hours is proved by scripture.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ituttut
Scripture says Three Days (Matthew 20:19; Mark 10:34; Luke 18:33, and 24:7), and I have shown this; but it also says after three days, and I have shown this.

Soooo, you just pick and choose huh???? My position does not require picking and choosing but harmonizes with every text above as no text above says 72 hours

I'm using show & tell what the Bible tells.

Says who? What text says that? Where is that found? Answer: NOWHERE

Luke 23:43, ." And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."

Build a straw man burn a straw man!!! Your very argument about a "fourth" day is based solely upon your own calculations while completely ignoring how I calculate it by evenings and mornings and you know it! You are intentionally perverting my position in order to build a straw man argument.
According to the evening and morning calculations it does not matter which reference of the "third day" you use as both will end up on Sunday. If you use the reference that uses the preposition "apo" (Lk. 21:24) with the resurrection occuring at sometime between 3am to 6pm you still have 3 evenings and 3 mornings. If you use the reference of the "third day" inclusive of the evening of Thursday it still ends up on Sunday afternoon between the crucifixion and the two walking on the road to Emaeus. Look at my calculations and you will clearly see that.

You call scripture "straw", and I call it a Firm Foundation. You refuse to believe what scripture says about the Passover. Who is the Passover? Did Jesus have to shed His blood before Passover could take place? You do not allow in your hypothesis a day for the Cross. You are saying the preparation day, and the first day of unleavened bred is the same day. Leaven is removed on preparation day, and unleavened bread is eaten, but the First Day, the Feast of Unleavened Bread begins on Nisan 15, a Thursday. It then ends on the next Wednesday
Please take it as gospel that scripture says He died on the Cross at 3pm. So please do your own counting, and see when Jesus left the tomb after the stone was rolled away. Jesus did not arise in the afternoon on Sunday.

:
No possibility as there is no three days any way you want to count it - your way or my way or any way. Besides the langauge used in those texts permits a Sunday resurrection interpretation.

I agree, but some verses allow, and show the Sabbath return of His Spirit, and Soul to His Body. This allows us to really believe Jesus knew what He was talking about in the sign of Jonas that was given for God's people to believe. Israel today does not believe this, and the world believes with them.