This is the Third day

[ituttut]

I have no idea what you are talking about. I have counted days as they are counted in Genesis one - the normal Jewish method. In the normal Jewish method there is two parts to the day - evening and morning. That is exactly how I have counted these days.

He arose in the "evening" part of Sunday - EVENING THREE
He was in the grave on the "morning" part of Saturday - MORING THREE
He was in the grave on the "evening" part of Saturday - EVENING TWO
He was in the grave on the "morning" part of Friday - MORNING TWO
He was in the grave on the "evening" part of Friday - EVENING ONE
He was in the grave on the "morning" part of Thursday - MORNING ONE.

Dear Dr. Walter, now add to your calculations the time of His arising, and the time of His death. It must calculate to the total of 72 hours. Your presentation doesn't agree with when the women arrived, i.e. unless Jesus came forth bodily on a Monday. Doesn't the Bible tell us exactly when His body gave up the Ghost?

Nowhere in scripture does it ever demand that Jews counted a day in no other terms than a full 24 hours. For example Adam was created on the sixth day but that does not mean he existed all 24 hours of that day.

Wish to inform you I have never said their day, or ours does not contain 24 hours to complete a day, and a night.

According to God, the 24 hour Day began at sun down (about 6pm which is considered Night ending with the rising of the sun, about 6am. Their daytime then begins at 6am, and ends at 6pm. They together equal 24 hours. Don't we agree this is what His Word tells us?

If so, Nisan 14 at 3PM we are told His Body was dead. Twenty one (21) hours had passed on the 14th day of Nisan, with three (3) hours left. Do you agree, or disagree?

As this is what God tells us, we have a firm foundation to begin our 72-hour countdown from the point of when He arrived in Paradise. Do you agree, or disagree?

3pm Wednesday to 3pm Thursday is one (1) day. DAY 1
3pm Thursday to 3pm Friday is one (1) day. DAY 2
3on Friday to 3pm Saturday is one (1) day. DAY 3
TOTAL 72 HOURS

Does Jesus not say He will be in the HEART OF THE EARTH (Hades0, that is to say Paradise on His arrival for a three (3) day working session? The bars of death were broken at 3pm on Saturday Nisan 17, and His Soul and spirit entered back into His dead Body. He also tells us He would arise again, after three Days. After three days, then it must be Sunday when He, in His Body emerged from the Tomb. The Women confirm this as they arrive at the Tomb with the rising of the sun on Sunday, the First Day of The Week. Mark tells us this in chapter 16, confirmed by Luke in chapter 24; also John chapter 20.

 

[ituttut]

GE:

Aah, Ituttut, on the tut!!!

You HAVE seen some light!

Thank God!

Yes, I always show tut.

The problem in fact IS Dr Walter puts together by "half-day counting" PARTS of SEPARATE DAYS that in fact do form a 24 hour period each PAIR, BUT NOT _THE_ or any "DAY" (consisting of first night then day) THAT IS INVOLVED AND CONCERNED in Scriptures THAT DEAL WITH _THE_ "three days" on "the third day" -OF WHICH - "Christ rose from the dead"!

Yes, Nisan 17 He did return from the dead on that Saturday.

This is Dr Walter's BASIC fallacy, that he IDENTIFIES the simply COUNTED 'days' involved in Luke 24:21 "SINCE" the Crucifixion, with _THE_ "three days" MEANT, in the Prophecies and Promises and Law --- _THE_ "three days" of the PASSOVER of Yahweh, the 14th, 15th and 16th days of the First Month the Month-of-Passover. Which "three days" : "ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES" were to be "observed", "remembered", "kept", "kept holy", "obeyed", each, IN ITS OWN RIGHT AND REALITY of "three days and three nights" _OF_ THESE and NO other, days.

How can I make it clearer, "THREE DAYS THICK DARKNESS" OF "THE PLAGUE" that "was upon Him", the "three days" of the last two plagues in Egypt and of the exodus, ONCE FOR ALL FULFILLED IN AND BY AND THROUGH JESUS CHRIST on the 14th, 15th and 16th days of Passover Month, ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES" IN EVERY RESPECT, especially in respect of the GOD-GIVEN and therefore eschatological imperative WHOLENESS AND FULLNESS OF EACH AND OF ALL THREE DAYS TOGETHER.

May I say here you are incorrect as to when Passover begins. The happenings on Nisan 14, the preparation day must be accomplished so the Passover can begin at even of that day that is just ending, according to scripture.

Goodness, do I speak to infidels or infants or what?!

The REAL 'days' of the Word of God; not just three days since the Crucifixion on Abib 14, but THE "three days"

OF WHICH ABIB 14 WAS, QUOTE: "THE VERY FIRST DAY";

OF WHICH Abib 15 was, QUOTE: "the first day ye shall eat no leavened bread ... That Day "

OF WHICH Abib 16 was, QUOTE "the day after the sabbath ... ye shall wave the sheaf".

GE, you should take another look at scripture you are reading as to what day is what. The first day is PESACH, I.E. Nisan 15 the first day of the Passover.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Really interesting break-down of the 3 days, but as my Scripture professor from seminary would say to questions of this nature: "Does it really matter?" The point is that He really died, and is indeed risen.

It may be of interest to note that the gospels refer to Christ as dying on "the day of preparation" - in Greek παρασκυε (paraskeve), which means preparation, and which corresponds to our Friday. So call me a traditionalist here: I see Him in the Garden of Gethsemane on Thursday evening, brought before Pilate Friday morning, crucified at noon, dead at 3 PM, buried before sundown, in the tomb all day Saturday and Saturday evening, risen before dawn in the wee hours of Sunday morning. Friday afternoon(day 1) + Saturday (day 2) + early Sunday morning (day 3) = 3 days according to the Jewish way of keeping time. He rose ON the third day, not after the third day as some would have.

But again, no matter how we look at it, it doesn't matter a great deal. We have to remember that these things were written well after the fact, and the purpose is not so we can break it down, but to understand that Christ did die, was buried, and rose again.

GE:

Does it really matter?

I'll illustrate to you that it DOES really matter and WHY it really does matter.

I ask you just this wee questiontjie - it's not important really - nevertheless I ask you : QUOTE WHERE YOU READ IN GOD'S WORD, "Christ as dying on "the day of preparation" - in Greek παρασκυε (paraskeve),"

Quote it in context, at least one verse before and one verse after --- THEN GO TELL YOUR PROF TO RESIGN HE'S UNWORTHY HIS POSITION!

And we'll see how important things really are ....

 

[ituttut]

WHY is it you REFUSE to go by the unambiguous, simple and clear identifications which the GOSPELS - the NEW Testament - meticulously supply in DETAIL and in DIVERS manners of THESE "three days"?

I shall place them again right before your eyes:

You may wish to believe your eyes, but I believe what His Word says. You have pointed to Luke 24 so let's stick with what is confusing both you, and Dr. Walter, by including more of chapter 24. It is 3 days since it happened according to Luke. What happened was the fourth day (not the 5th day. You are having the event of the two having the discussion on a Monday.

Luke 24:7 reads, "Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again." Differt events. It is good to have another verse to help clarify verse 21. Jesus Arose AGAIN after 3pm on Saturday. This shows they (women & angel/s) were talking on Sunday, and this again shown in verse 9. So verse 21 falls into its proper place, of being the fourth day since His burial, and His Body brought alive again, beginning at 3PM on Saturday. Jesus did not emerge from the Tomb until sometime after the stone was rolled away by the Angel, at 6pm, the beginning of their Sunday.


Luke 24, verse 21 plainly tells us Nisan 14-he preparation day, is not included. "But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done." Besides all that happened on Wednesday they are telling us.

Verse 22. Yea, and certain women also of our company made us astonished, which were early at the sepulchre;"


The conversation is not about the Preparation day of Nisan 14, but the 1st day of Passover, which is Nisan 15, that Thursday, the High Sabbath Day.

Luke says it is three days since, so why are you adding another whole day?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

.....................................

GE, you should take another look at scripture you are reading as to what day is what. The first day is PESACH, I.E. Nisan 15 the first day of the Passover.

GE:

Ituttut, I can stay calm speaking to you, fortunately. I think I know why. I think it's because I think you're honest.

Ituttut, read Exodus 12:15. It says,

"Seven days ye shall eat unleavened bread." Then it goes on to explain the chronology as well as methodology of passover days and events --- the 'when' and the 'how' of the passover days and events.

Exodus 12:15 goes on to explain,

"Even the first day (of passover) ye shall PUT AWAY LEAVEN".

That is one day, the first day of passover, “when ye put away leaven”. Mark 14:12,17 Matthew 26:17,20 Luke 22:7,14 John 13:1,30; 19:14 1Corinthians 11:23 … and “they had to always kill the passover”. “The day BEFORE the Feast … The Preparation OF THE PASSOVER”!

Now the KJV renders the Hebrew, correctly, yes; it says,

"EVEN THE FIRST day ...".

The Hebrew actually is, "On the day the HEAD day / the VERY first day / the FIRST, first day ...".

Because the day on which the leaven was removed, was ...
... One, the very same day that they KILLED the passover sacrifice Exodus 12:6; and ...
... Two, was viewed as "The Preparation-of-the-Passover" John 19:14.

I think you have a problem though, with the English word, ‘evening’, in Exodus 12:6. It is a 1611 English word. The Hebrew word is ‘ereb’ which simply means, ‘late’. In modern English the best if not the only word for it in the context of the time the passover lamb was slaughtered, is ‘afternoon’. Therefore, afternoon ON the fourteenth day BEFORE sunset— LONG before sunset! Three hours exactly before sunset if Jesus’ death is regarded the norm. He died “the ninth hour”.

The Jews speak of ‘bedikat gamets’ – the ceremonial removal of leaven in the night before the lamb the following day would be SLAUGHTERED.

Now on this “very first DAY”, dough “WITHOUT LEAVEN” had been ‘prepared’, and made ready so that when the Israelites just after midnight moved out, they “carried their dough on their shoulders, out”!

Exodus 12 was written of course at a time much later than the exodus itself. But Exodus is the only book of the Torah that gives the history of the exodus AS it happened FROM WITHIN EGYPT, when, and where, days were reckoned sunrise to sunrise still. Therefore Abib 14 and 15 as it were MERGED, both days Abib 14 and 15 being dated the fourteenth in Exodus. That very first night after they had slaughtered the sacrifice, the Israelites HAD their dough prepared, and they ALREADY in THAT VERY FIRST NIGHT, ate bread of the unleavened dough. They ate “the flesh”, “WITH unleavened bread” in the night of their exodus. And that night is found dated the night of the FOURTEENTH day of the First Month. Exodus 12:6,8.

But DAYS OF SLAUGHTER AND EATING in all subsequent Books (Deuteronomy maybe an exception) are dated SEPARATELY, 14th and 15th OF THE First Month. And the night they ATE, is found dated the night of the FIFTEENTH day of the First Month. Numbers 33:3 is one text.

It is clearly observable therefore, that the TWO days 14 and 15 Abib, _IN EXODUS_, were of TWO days coming first and of TWO nights, coming last.

First day: Exodus 12:6,7— “kill it”; “strike the blood”.
First night: 12:8-13— “eat the flesh, roasted, without anything (‘bitter’), WITH unleavened bread.”

First night-and-day day therefore: 12:14, where we see the FOURTEENTH day called a “memorial” and a “feast”!

Implication:

If in the night “the flesh” was eaten “WITH unleavened bread”, it means the unleavened DOUGH was PREPARED during the day of Abib 14. In other words, leaven had to be REMOVED ON, Abib 14 daylight OR BEFORE, in the night before the day of Abib 14 which in Egypt was the night of Abib 13!

And that is why the Jews to this day have ‘Bedikat Gamets’ – the Removal of Leaven in the night of Abib 14 which while in Egypt was Abib 13 still.

I must say I previously thought they only ate the sacrifice and no unleavened bread. But the fact the Israelites ate unleavened bread “with the flesh” IN THE NIGHT OF THEIR EXODUS, has today been a new insight to me; an exiting first time discovery— for which I thank the Lord as well as my debaters.

The rest then is as I have been maintaining from long ago …
Exodus 12 continues in verse 15 to describe BOTH days or aspects of passover,
“Seven days shall ye eat unleavened bread …”

As follows …
… “The VERY FIRST day [Abib 14] ye shall PUT AWAY LEAVEN.”

So …
… “The very first day [Abib 14] ye shall put away leaven out of your houses FOR / BECAUSE whosoever eateth leavened bread from the FIRST day (of eating unleavened bread) until the seventh day (of eating unleavened bread), that soul shall be cut off from Israel.”

These – the TWO, ‘first’, days – explain verse 18b,
“Ye shall eat unleavened bread until the ONE AND TWENTIETH day in the night.”

‘ ereb ’ / ‘ ״gēh'-rev ’ in 12:6 is late day, afternoon when the sacrifice was killed.

But in 12:18 ‘ ereb ’ / ‘ ״gāh'-rav' ’ is “darkened / dark”.
‘ ״gǎhrav ’, ‘mixed’, Daniel 2:41.
So ‘ ״gāh'-rav' ’, Isaiah 24:11, “All joy is darkened …”; Judges 19:9, “It is already dark … tarry (now) all night.”

Therefore in Exodus 12:18, “Ye shall eat unleavened bread until the ONE AND TWENTIETH day in the night”— “dark / dusk / night / evening”.

Evening is at the BEGINNING of a day. It presupposes the era AFTER the exodus, when reckoning of days had been changed from the pagan and Egyptian sunrise to sunrise reckoning, to the Bible and Hebrew sunset to sunset reckoning.

Exodus 12:18,
“Ye shall eat unleavened bread until the ONE AND TWENTIETH day in the night”—
Evening after sunset 15 Abib : first day unleavened bread;
Evening after sunset 16 Abib : second day unleavened bread;
Evening after sunset 17 Abib : third day unleavened bread;
Evening after sunset 18 Abib : fourth day unleavened bread;
Evening after sunset 19 Abib : fifth day unleavened bread;
Evening after sunset 20 Abib : sixth day unleavened bread;
Evening after sunset 21 Abib : seventh day unleavened bread.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

................................
Luke 24, verse 21 plainly tells us Nisan 14-he preparation day, is not included. "But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done." Besides all that happened on Wednesday they are telling us.
...........................

GE:

Dear Ituttut, you should DISTINGUISH between "The Preparation OF THE PASSOVER" John 19:14 "the day BEFORE the feast" John 13:1,

and,

"The Preparation which is the Fore-Sabbath".

You should, but you do not.

Go do distinguish the two, separate days, and you'll see what I mean.

 

[ituttut]

Really interesting break-down of the 3 days, but as my Scripture professor from seminary would say to questions of this nature: "Does it really matter?" The point is that He really died, and is indeed risen.
.

Hello SakranMM. Probably a good answer for this Professor, as he has not yet progressed far enough to form a position that he can defend. Many experts in a particular field of study never venture too far from their chosen field. Yet strange to have no opinion at all, if this is your meaning.

It may be of interest to note that the gospels refer to Christ as dying on "the day of preparation" - in Greek παρασκυε (paraskeve), which means preparation, and which corresponds to our Friday. So call me a traditionalist here: I see Him in the Garden of Gethsemane on Thursday evening, brought before Pilate Friday morning, crucified at noon, dead at 3 PM, buried before sundown, in the tomb all day Saturday and Saturday evening, risen before dawn in the wee hours of Sunday morning. Friday afternoon(day 1) + Saturday (day 2) + early Sunday morning (day 3) = 3 days according to the Jewish way of keeping time. He rose ON the third day, not after the third day as some would have.

Please count the hours you present on a Friday belief. I personally believe God has given us the answer to such things as this, and wants us to study His Word as we progress one step at a time, with precept upon precept. We can in this way it is possible to open up what looks to be unfathomable.

So we must start somewhere on a solid foundation. In the very beginning God shows us what we must believe to understand such things as what we may find in Jesus' death. Genesis 1 should give a clue what we are to understand about our God. He is a God of division. He can, does, and will put everything back together again. And He would that we all believe what He tells us, as we learn His ways to bring understanding He has provided for us. We are told today to study to make ourselves approved, as we progress on our way from which we first believed.

What constitutes a 24-hour day? Do we believe Him as to how many hours are in a day, and night, or do we take what man tells us? Chapter 1, verse 4 reads, "And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness." We should build on a solid foundation.

But again, no matter how we look at it, it doesn't matter a great deal. We have to remember that these things were written well after the fact, and the purpose is not so we can break it down, but to understand that Christ did die, was buried, and rose again.

Amen, and Amen. No lake of fire. Some are satisfied with this. But those in the Body of Christ do have an awards ceremony coming up.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

What did the devil do wrong in Eden or in the temple? what sin did he commit? which law did he transgress?

The devil quoted God - Scripture - falsely and the pit with burning tar waits for him for eternity.

Don't fool around with placid compromise.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Originally Posted by Gerhard Ebersoehn
DW:
I said it before; I say it again but without the EMPHATIC question-mark I used, Luke does NOT deny Sunday was the fourth day “from”, and, INCLUDING, the day of the Crucifixion!

Look at your own comment above. That is the comment that I have been responding to. You say above in your own words that "from...INCLUDING the day of Crucifixion" Indeed in other posts you attempted to interpret the words "third day since" to make the Sunday the FOURTH day by "INCLUDING" the day of crucifixion in your accounting in regard to Luke 24:21.

My response was and still is that for your theory of accounting to be correct Luke would have had to use "ek" as that would include the day of crucifixion but HE DID NOT us "ek" he used "apo" which EXCLUDES the day of crucifixion in his counting thus making Sunday the THIRD not the FOURTH day any way you wish to count it.

You accused me twice of ignoring Luke 24:20 as part of this context in regard to how to count "third day" just as Itiut has also accused me of ignoring it. If you wish, I will take the time and go back and find that quote as well?

Well GE?? I provided YOUR OWN WORDS. You challenged me to provide YOUR WORDS and here they are! What about all the names you called me, such as a "liar" because you claimed you never made any comments that called for my distinction of "apo" versus "ek" in regard to your comments with Luke 24:21?????????????????????

 

[Dr. Walter]

Dear Dr. Walter, now add to your calculations the time of His arising, and the time of His death. It must calculate to the total of 72 hours. Your presentation doesn't agree with when the women arrived, i.e. unless Jesus came forth bodily on a Monday. Doesn't the Bible tell us exactly when His body gave up the Ghost?

Wish to inform you I have never said their day, or ours does not contain 24 hours to complete a day, and a night.

According to God, the 24 hour Day began at sun down (about 6pm which is considered Night ending with the rising of the sun, about 6am. Their daytime then begins at 6am, and ends at 6pm. They together equal 24 hours. Don't we agree this is what His Word tells us?

If so, Nisan 14 at 3PM we are told His Body was dead. Twenty one (21) hours had passed on the 14th day of Nisan, with three (3) hours left. Do you agree, or disagree?

As this is what God tells us, we have a firm foundation to begin our 72-hour countdown from the point of when He arrived in Paradise. Do you agree, or disagree?

3pm Wednesday to 3pm Thursday is one (1) day. DAY 1
3pm Thursday to 3pm Friday is one (1) day. DAY 2
3on Friday to 3pm Saturday is one (1) day. DAY 3
TOTAL 72 HOURS

Does Jesus not say He will be in the HEART OF THE EARTH (Hades0, that is to say Paradise on His arrival for a three (3) day working session? The bars of death were broken at 3pm on Saturday Nisan 17, and His Soul and spirit entered back into His dead Body. He also tells us He would arise again, after three Days. After three days, then it must be Sunday when He, in His Body emerged from the Tomb. The Women confirm this as they arrive at the Tomb with the rising of the sun on Sunday, the First Day of The Week. Mark tells us this in chapter 16, confirmed by Luke in chapter 24; also John chapter 20.

Both you and GE have your nice little games of mental gynastics that you play with God's Word. You both have a LOGICAL basis for your positions but both of you begin at the same bottom line - HUMAN LOGIC rather than explicit scriptures.

For example. Show me just one scripture where it is said explicitly that a "day" must be a full 24 hours and that a part of day cannot be reckoned as a whole in Jewish thinking? For example, on several occassions Jesus spent the night in prayer. According to your LOGIC he must have begun his prayer at 6 pm sharp or when the sun went down and ended his praying at 6 am sharp or when the sun gave first light or a full 12 hours or else he did not spend the "night" in prayer.

All your figuring is based upon logic, based upon an IMAGINED knowledge of the precise calendar year he died which in turn is based upon an IMAGINED knowledge of the precise calendar year he was born because every year Nisan 13-17 does not fall on the same days of the week.

My position is based upon the fact that Sunday "THIS IS" the third day since he was crucified (Lk. 24:21) and that Luke also says that he rose "the third day." Simple, clear and easy to verify regardless of what year he was born or died.

 

[percho]

Both you and GE have your nice little games of mental gynastics that you play with God's Word. You both have a LOGICAL basis for your positions but both of you begin at the same bottom line - HUMAN LOGIC rather than explicit scriptures.

For example. Show me just one scripture where it is said explicitly that a "day" must be a full 24 hours and that a part of day cannot be reckoned as a whole in Jewish thinking? For example, on several occassions Jesus spent the night in prayer. According to your LOGIC he must have begun his prayer at 6 pm sharp or when the sun went down and ended his praying at 6 am sharp or when the sun gave first light or a full 12 hours or else he did not spend the "night" in prayer.

All your figuring is based upon logic, based upon an IMAGINED knowledge of the precise calendar year he died which in turn is based upon an IMAGINED knowledge of the precise calendar year he was born because every year Nisan 13-17 does not fall on the same days of the week.

My position is based upon the fact that Sunday "THIS IS" the third day since he was crucified (Lk. 24:21) and that Luke also says that he rose "the third day." Simple, clear and easy to verify regardless of what year he was born or died.

The closest I could come.
Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world. But if a man walk in the night, he stumbleth, because there is no light in him.

Had to use a little human logic.

He either prayed from dusk to dawn or you have to use some human logic to say he did not.

 

[Dr. Walter]

The closest I could come.
Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world. But if a man walk in the night, he stumbleth, because there is no light in him.

Had to use a little human logic.

He either prayed from dusk to dawn or you have to use some human logic to say he did not.

He did not say "is there not twenty four hours in a day" but he divided the Jewish day into evening and morning (daylight) thus justifyiing the division of the day into two parts each consisting of "twelve hours."

No one argues that there is not 24 hours in a WHOLE DAY but the Bible never says anywhere that Christ would be in the Grave three WHOLE days or even three WHOLE nights and three WHOLE days. Hence, my use of human logic has more of Biblical basis than your use of human logic as He does divide the whole day into TWO PARTS just as I have done and we know he was not in the grave the WHOLE 12 hours of Sunday EVENING neither was he in the grave 12 whole hours on Thursday DAY [morning aspect of thursday beginning at 6 am and ending at 6 pm on thursday) when he was actually buried.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Well GE?? I provided YOUR OWN WORDS. You challenged me to provide YOUR WORDS and here they are! What about all the names you called me, such as a "liar" because you claimed you never made any comments that called for my distinction of "apo" versus "ek" in regard to your comments with Luke 24:21?????????????????????

GE:

Yes, you provided my words --- without their context.

Luke says, in Cleopas' words, as we both agreed on, the day of the disciples' still being so perplexed by events, was "the third day SINCE" the crucifixion and they began to be so confused by the PAST events of "delivered to be condemned and crucified". Note that they did not mention that Jesus died. Why? Because they fled the scene of the crucifixion BEFORE Jesus died, and would not have known that He died because crucified people could live on for days. And that is why the women's report to them on that same Sunday morning --- FOR THE FIRST TIME --- "surprised" them so greatly! They did not know whether Jesus died or not, and less knew that his body was removed from the cross and least could they expect that his body would be BURIED which was not the privilege of crucified ever! Therefore, yes, "Today ... the First Day of the week ... since / away from these things" which we actually had seen with out own eyes "happened", "is the third day" IN OUR MEMORY of events that included everything BUT the "surprising" fact that Jesus actually got buried.

PURELY and CONTEXTUALLY, exclusively 'COUNTED' days - nothing to do with the Prophetic "three days" they did not understand anything about, or gave thought in the least. Much later that night only would Jesus Himself turn their attention to THE "three days" according to the "Prophets", and explain it to them. AT THAT STAGE, _THE_ "three days" "according to the Scriptures" not so much as entered into their mind!

Now go back to the context of ‘my words’, and you will see that I, in the first place, did not utter them as resulted they from a dissertation on the meaning of ‘ek’ supposed in lieu of ‘apo’. It was no grammatical argument I used, but a PURELY LOGICAL inference against YOUR denial that Sunday actually was the first day after the “three days” of the passover, and therefore the FOURTH day reckoned from and including the day of the Crucifixion.

Therefore, here are my words in fuller context, and self-explanatory,

“Today is the third day, that is, today is three days AWAY _FROM_ the day that He was condemned to be crucified and indeed was crucified.” Thereby Luke “denies it is the fourth day "since" he was crucified”.
You said it— just what I have been saying _from day one_ until today that I am saying the same thing. Difference is though, I mean “from” includes the day that I started; Luke meant ‘apo’ excluded the day “when” (‘hou’) He was crucified.

I said it before; I say it again but without the EMPHATIC question-mark I used, Luke does NOT deny Sunday was the fourth day “from”, and, INCLUDING, the day of the Crucifixion! Luke by having said, “"TODAY IS THE THIRD DAY" since he was crucified”, IMPLIED Sunday was the fourth day “from” and INCLUDING, the day of the Crucifixion in the most definitive and definite manner language could convey the IMPLICATION. The abstraction from Luke’s statement, “today is the third day _SINCE_ these things … delivered … crucified … were done”, remains, that he is CONSTATING the logical and consequential fact that IF, the day the “rulers delivered Him to be condemned and have crucified Him” were INCLUDED, “today … the First Day of the week” would have been the FOURTH day “since” the day “our rulers delivered Him to be condemned and have crucified Him”. But Luke obviously did not intend the idiomatic inclusive interpretation of his words, ‘aph’ hou’, but the chronological exclusive meaning of an addition of days, and not an abstraction or inclusion of days.

 

[Dr. Walter]

GE:

Yes, you provided my words --- without their context.

More mental gynastics! Playing the politician and trying to escape LUKE's WORDS through YOUR interpretation of those words. Well YOUR interpretation of those words defy His own words and that was my point. You still assert that "apo" used by Luke in Luke 24:21 can be interpreted to INCLUDE the day of crucifixion as though "apo" has the meaning of "ek."

said it before; I say it again but without the EMPHATIC question-mark I used, Luke does NOT deny Sunday was the fourth day “from”, and, INCLUDING, the day of the Crucifixion! Luke by having said, “"TODAY IS THE THIRD DAY" since he was crucified”, IMPLIED Sunday was the fourth day “from” and INCLUDING, the day of the Crucifixion in the most definitive and definite manner language could convey the IMPLICATION. .

Complete double talk! Your interpretation of Luke's word denies exactly what he is saying. Sunday "is" NOT the "fourth day since" the crucifixion as your "logic" distorts his words and which the use of "apo" explicitly denies but Sunday "IS THE THIRD DAY SINCE" his crucifixion thus EXCLUDING the day of crucifxion in his count as "apo" EXCLUDES the day of crucifixion as it begins the count "AWAY FROM" not "OUF OF" as your interpretation demands. Thus you are ultimately changing the meaning of "apo" to that of "ek" just as I accused you.

The abstraction from Luke’s statement, “today is the third day _SINCE_ these things … delivered … crucified … were done”, remains, that he is CONSTATING the logical and consequential fact that IF, the day the “rulers delivered Him to be condemned and have crucified Him” were INCLUDED, “today … the First Day of the week” would have been the FOURTH day “since” the day “our rulers delivered Him to be condemned and have crucified Him”. But Luke obviously did not intend the idiomatic inclusive interpretation of his words, ‘aph’ hou’, but the chronological exclusive meaning of an addition of days, and not an abstraction or inclusion of days

There is no subjunctive mode used by Luke here. There is no suppositional "if." He is declaring a fact not providing a suppositional rationalization! He says "third day" not "fourth day." He uses "apo" not "ek" which EXCLUDES the day of crucifixion in his count rather than INCLUDES it. You are simply repudiating the explicit inspired words of Luke because they repudiate your false doctrine of Saturn Day worship.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Both you and GE have your nice little games of mental gynastics that you play with God's Word. You both have a LOGICAL basis for your positions but both of you begin at the same bottom line - HUMAN LOGIC rather than explicit scriptures.

For example. Show me just one scripture where it is said explicitly that a "day" must be a full 24 hours and that a part of day cannot be reckoned as a whole in Jewish thinking? For example, on several occassions Jesus spent the night in prayer. According to your LOGIC he must have begun his prayer at 6 pm sharp or when the sun went down and ended his praying at 6 am sharp or when the sun gave first light or a full 12 hours or else he did not spend the "night" in prayer.

All your figuring is based upon logic, based upon an IMAGINED knowledge of the precise calendar year he died which in turn is based upon an IMAGINED knowledge of the precise calendar year he was born because every year Nisan 13-17 does not fall on the same days of the week.

My position is based upon the fact that Sunday "THIS IS" the third day since he was crucified (Lk. 24:21) and that Luke also says that he rose "the third day." Simple, clear and easy to verify regardless of what year he was born or died.

GE:

Just of whom are you speaking, Dr Walter? Whose logic is this?

You see Dr Walter, it’s no one’s but YOURS!

So you sommer make it ours?! What’s wrong, dear Doctor, can we be of any help, perhaps?

Dr Walter:

All your figuring is based upon logic, based upon an IMAGINED knowledge of the precise calendar year he died which in turn is based upon an IMAGINED knowledge of the precise calendar year he was born because every year Nisan 13-17 does not fall on the same days of the week.

GE:

Really Dr Walter, I am no medical man; don’t expect me to help you, please; not with this ailment.

Dr Walter:

My position is based upon the fact that Sunday "THIS IS" the third day since he was crucified (Lk. 24:21) and that Luke also says that he rose "the third day." Simple, clear and easy to verify regardless of what year he was born or died.

GE:

Now Dr Walter, having said this, I would, if I were a medical man, have diagnosed you for a schizophrenic.

 

[Dr. Walter]

GE:

Just of whom are you speaking, Dr Walter? Whose logic is this?

You see Dr Walter, it’s no one’s but YOURS!

So you sommer make it ours?! What’s wrong, dear Doctor, can we be of any help, perhaps?

Dr Walter:

All your figuring is based upon logic, based upon an IMAGINED knowledge of the precise calendar year he died which in turn is based upon an IMAGINED knowledge of the precise calendar year he was born because every year Nisan 13-17 does not fall on the same days of the week.

GE:

Really Dr Walter, I am no medical man; don’t expect me to help you, please; not with this ailment.

Dr Walter:

My position is based upon the fact that Sunday "THIS IS" the third day since he was crucified (Lk. 24:21) and that Luke also says that he rose "the third day." Simple, clear and easy to verify regardless of what year he was born or died.

GE:

Now Dr Walter, having said this, I would, if I were a medical man, have diagnosed you for a schizophrenic.

Look at the character of your responses! You are very good at insulting others but a terrible exegete and a horrible Bible scholar. You resort to insults because you cannot deal with the facts of scripture. You cannot tell the difference between the meaning of "apo" versus "ek" you cannot tell the meaning between "third" versus "fourth" and your Saturn day worship is repudiated by Christ and the apostles and so your only resort left is to resort to insults.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

GE:

Ag, of what avail?!

This is a fruitless conversation. The only good that comes of it, is to let Dr Walter more and more entangle himself in his own … let’s call it out of courtesy … ‘LOGIC’.

Re:
Dr Walter,
“You still assert that "apo" used by Luke in Luke 24:21 can be interpreted to INCLUDE the day of crucifixion as though "apo" has the meaning of "ek."”

GE:

No, I don’t! I do not “assert” anything other or against what Luke asserts. And I do not “interpret … “apo” … to include the day of crucifixion as though "apo" has the meaning of "ek."”

Your old ailment, Dr Walter, for which there seems to be no medicine, you telling me what I do not say I say!

Again, also, you simply ignore how I myself, shows how Luke himself, brings the “three days” THE PROPHETS WERE SPEAKING OF, into reckoning— three OTHER days than the three days implied in the DISCIPLES’ reference, “Today is the third day since … crucified.”

Or, am I forced to conclude, dear Dr Walter, you are hopelessly UNABLE to recognise the difference between or the supposition of TWO unrelated implicated KINDS of ‘three days’? No, I am wrong there; you are not unable; you are UNWILLING!


Re:
Dr Walter,
“Complete double talk! Your interpretation of Luke's word denies exactly what he is saying. Sunday "is" NOT the "fourth day since" the crucifixion as your "logic" distorts his words and which the use of "apo" explicitly denies but Sunday "IS THE THIRD DAY SINCE" his crucifixion thus EXCLUDING the day of crucifxion in his count as "apo" EXCLUDES the day of crucifixion as it begins the count "AWAY FROM" not "OUF OF" as your interpretation demands. Thus you are ultimately changing the meaning of "apo" to that of "ek" just as I accused you.”

GE:

You cannot understand, so you call it ‘double talk’. Then you just repeat your FALSE accusation.

I must go now ...

 

[Dr. Walter]

1 ¶ Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.
2 And they found the stone rolled away from the sepulchre.
3 And they entered in, and found not the body of the Lord Jesus.

6......remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee,
7 Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.

21 But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.
22 Yea, and certain women also of our company made us astonished, which were early at the sepulchre;
23 And when they found not his body, they came, saying, that they had also seen a vision of angels, which said that he was alive.


What day did the women go to the tomb and did not find his body in verse 1?

What day were they to remember that Jesus said he would rise on in verses 6-7?

What day was the day was it that very day - verse 21

What day did the women go "very early" and find an empty tomb - verses 22-23?

Sunday is the day the tomb was found empty by the women not Saturday.

The "third day" is the day when the tomb would be emptied and "today is the third day" not saturday - vv. 6-7,21.

Clear, simple and without any mental gymnastics to complicate the passage.



ANY INTERPRETATION THAT MUST EXPLAIN AWAY THE OBVIOUS IS A WEAKER INTERPRETATION AND THAT IS PRECISELY WHAT GE MUST DO - EXPLAIN AWAY THE OBVIOUS THAT IT IS SUNDAY THE TOMB WAS FOUND EMPTY NOT SATURDAY - vv. 1-3 - IT WAS THE THIRD DAY HE WOULD EMPTY THE TOMB - NOT THE FOURTH DAY - vv. 6-7 - AND SUNDAY IS THE THIRD DAY WHEN THE WOMEN FOUND THE TOMB EMPTY - vv. 21-24 Now watch GE's response - it will be a EXPLAIN AWAY response.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

No Dr Walter, I have said everything I could, already.

I have finished with this conversation.

If you feel you have 'WON', enjoy your feeling!

God be with you

GE

 

[Dr. Walter]

No Dr Walter, I have said everything I could, already.

I have finished with this conversation.

If you feel you have 'WON', enjoy your feeling!

God be with you

GE

Here are your words:

Luke by having said, “"TODAY IS THE THIRD DAY" since he was crucified”, IMPLIED Sunday was the fourth day “from” and INCLUDING, the day of the Crucifixion in the most definitive and definite manner language could convey the IMPLICATION.

1. You are quoting Luke 21:24 when you put in parenthesis "TODAY IS THE THIRD DAY since he was crucified"

2. You are drawing an implication from these words when you say, "IMPLIED Sunday was the fourth day "from" and INCLUDING, the day of Crucifixion"

You are wrong in your drawn implication. Sunday is not the fourth day "from" (apo) from the Crucifixion as that would demand that "apo" includes the day of crucifixion but the very root idea of apo is from the exterior not the interior of that day. You are wrong that "apo" allows "INCLUDING, the day of Crucifixion" - You are simply just wrong and too proud to admit it.