savedbymercy
New Member
You made some good points !
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The Contextual Israel in Romans 11:26
- Thread starter Dr. Walter
- Start date
You made some good points !
savedbymercy
New Member
Rom 11:8
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them [National Israel] the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.
Paul realizing that this issue was very important, so he stuck to the Old Testament scriptures to verify His points that He was making.
It should not be any surprise that National Israel is experiencing what she is experiencing [ being blinded] because it was foretold in OT scripture.
Isa 29:10
10For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.
Isa 6:9-10
9And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
10Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.
Its mentioned in Jn 12:37-40
37But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
38That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
39Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
Jesus himself says that it was His purpose for coming, not only to open blind eyes [ the elect remnant] but also make blind [ the rejected Nation ] Jn 9:39
39And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
The making blind of National Israel was in Line with what God had planned and purposed before the world began.
Again, what is key to understanding this matter, is that there were Two Israels, National Israel and Election Israel the remnant. It was never Gods intention to save all of the Nation of Israel, but a remnant Rom 9:27
27Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
The remnant is also Israel, it is the remnant that Salvation is promised to, not the whole Nation.
God had purposed to harden and reprobate the rest of the Nation, because He had another way determined on how all Israel shall be saved, and it was not by saving the Nation of Israel [ corporate], for God had another election of grace out of the gentiles, and their conversion and the conversion of the election of grace in National Israel, this is how all Israel will be saved. But we will get to that later in the study, but now its important to realize, that National Israel's hardening and blinding was of the LORD.
Matt 21:42
Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them [National Israel] the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.
Paul realizing that this issue was very important, so he stuck to the Old Testament scriptures to verify His points that He was making.
It should not be any surprise that National Israel is experiencing what she is experiencing [ being blinded] because it was foretold in OT scripture.
Isa 29:10
10For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.
Isa 6:9-10
9And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
10Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.
Its mentioned in Jn 12:37-40
37But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
38That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
39Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
Jesus himself says that it was His purpose for coming, not only to open blind eyes [ the elect remnant] but also make blind [ the rejected Nation ] Jn 9:39
39And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
The making blind of National Israel was in Line with what God had planned and purposed before the world began.
Again, what is key to understanding this matter, is that there were Two Israels, National Israel and Election Israel the remnant. It was never Gods intention to save all of the Nation of Israel, but a remnant Rom 9:27
27Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
The remnant is also Israel, it is the remnant that Salvation is promised to, not the whole Nation.
God had purposed to harden and reprobate the rest of the Nation, because He had another way determined on how all Israel shall be saved, and it was not by saving the Nation of Israel [ corporate], for God had another election of grace out of the gentiles, and their conversion and the conversion of the election of grace in National Israel, this is how all Israel will be saved. But we will get to that later in the study, but now its important to realize, that National Israel's hardening and blinding was of the LORD.
Matt 21:42
Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
Dr. Walter
New Member
When a Person has the OVERALL truth on a subject they can deal with whatever scriptures they are given. However, when they only have HALF the truth then they deal with scriptures like you do.
You have only a HALF truth and that is why you cannot deal with the contextulal problems I put in your face with Romans 11:11 but run scared of it. That is why you cannot deal with the contextual problems I placed in your face with Romans 11:25-28 but you run scared of those problems
Every scripture you give below harmonizes with the the following facts:
1. NATIONAL ISRAEL since its orign never consisted of all promised children and never will until Romans 11:25-28.
2.PRESENTLY National Israel is TEMPORARILY being rejected by God with the exception that a remnant is being saved for the sake of the promised children among the gentiles but when the "fullness of" the promised children among the Gentiles be "COME IN" then God will graft Israel back "again" and then salvation will come to ALL ISRAEL as a nation - Rom. 11:11, 25-28.
3. PRESENTLY God is calling out his promised children among the Gentiles and they are being saved by the very same promises and very same salvation promised to NATIONAL ISRAEL when Christ comes again.
1, 2, 3 - You can't go on in the context and actually see and believe the contextual argument of Paul because your HALF truth won't allow you. Right at the end of this Old Testament prophecy quoted by Paul in Romans 11:7-10 he asks if God has FOREVER cast them off as a nation and his answer to your embarassement is "GOD FORBID" (v. 11) and then he goes on to explain why they are TEMPORARILY rejected and how and whent they will be grafted in "AGAIN" to your embarassment (vv. 12-28).
You cannot deal with God's word contextually because it would expose your ignorance so you pick and choose your text (v.8) and then jump out of the context to the Old Testament.
That was his purpose for a TEMPORARY PERIOD OF TIME but not PERMENANT as Romans 11:11 flatly denies the very conclusion you are drawing and Romans 11:25 spells out exactly when this temporary rejection will end and Romans 11:26-28 tells you exactly when and how "all" NATIONAL Israel will be saved YET IN THE FUTURE.
The "remnant" is God work of salvation from the time of Isaac and Ishmael and Jacob and Esau to the PRESENT among the Jewish people. However, there is another work that God is going to do with the Jewish people WHEN "the fullness of the Gentiles be COME IN" (Rom. 11:25). There is another work that God is going to do with the Jewish People WHEN "the Deliver shall come out of Zion" (Rom. 11:26) which is YET FUTURE ("shall"). There is another work that God is going to do WHEN he takes that which was "cut off" and grafts it back "AGAIN" (Rom. 11:22). You are totally blind to these scriptures and you run from them because your HALF truth theory cannot deal with the FULL light of Scriptures.
Paul explicitly tells you WHY he purposed to harden and reprobate the rest of the nation from the time of their rejection of Christ "until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in" (Rom. 11:25) and that is that salvation should come to the Gentile promised children and WHEN "the fullness of the Gentiles be come in" (Rom. 11:25) then God will graft what he has "cut off" back "again"!!
He has not cut off the remnant.
He has not cut off the gentile elect
He has cut off NATIONAL ISRAEL or Israel as a NATION and that is what he will graft in "AGAIN" when "the fullness of the Gentiles be come in" and THEN they will be grafted in AGAIN "And so ALL ISRAEL shall be saved."
Yes! They rejected Christ and God planned it that way so He could send his churches to the Gentiles so that the gentile promised children would have the gospel preached unto them BUT when "the fullness" of God's promised children among "the gentiles be COME IN" then the Same Jesus told NATIONAL ISRAEL:
Mt. 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
Rom. 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Rev. 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
Zech 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.
Paul had this to say to false teachers like you:
Rom.11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
Rom. 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Your HALF truths crumble before the FULL truth of God's Word and that is precisely why you wisely chose to stop at Romans 11:10 and not proceed to Romans 11:11-28 in an expository fashion as your HALF truth would be exposed for all to see.
You have only a HALF truth and that is why you cannot deal with the contextulal problems I put in your face with Romans 11:11 but run scared of it. That is why you cannot deal with the contextual problems I placed in your face with Romans 11:25-28 but you run scared of those problems
Every scripture you give below harmonizes with the the following facts:
1. NATIONAL ISRAEL since its orign never consisted of all promised children and never will until Romans 11:25-28.
2.PRESENTLY National Israel is TEMPORARILY being rejected by God with the exception that a remnant is being saved for the sake of the promised children among the gentiles but when the "fullness of" the promised children among the Gentiles be "COME IN" then God will graft Israel back "again" and then salvation will come to ALL ISRAEL as a nation - Rom. 11:11, 25-28.
3. PRESENTLY God is calling out his promised children among the Gentiles and they are being saved by the very same promises and very same salvation promised to NATIONAL ISRAEL when Christ comes again.
1, 2, 3 - You can't go on in the context and actually see and believe the contextual argument of Paul because your HALF truth won't allow you. Right at the end of this Old Testament prophecy quoted by Paul in Romans 11:7-10 he asks if God has FOREVER cast them off as a nation and his answer to your embarassement is "GOD FORBID" (v. 11) and then he goes on to explain why they are TEMPORARILY rejected and how and whent they will be grafted in "AGAIN" to your embarassment (vv. 12-28).
You cannot deal with God's word contextually because it would expose your ignorance so you pick and choose your text (v.8) and then jump out of the context to the Old Testament.
That was his purpose for a TEMPORARY PERIOD OF TIME but not PERMENANT as Romans 11:11 flatly denies the very conclusion you are drawing and Romans 11:25 spells out exactly when this temporary rejection will end and Romans 11:26-28 tells you exactly when and how "all" NATIONAL Israel will be saved YET IN THE FUTURE.
The "remnant" is God work of salvation from the time of Isaac and Ishmael and Jacob and Esau to the PRESENT among the Jewish people. However, there is another work that God is going to do with the Jewish people WHEN "the fullness of the Gentiles be COME IN" (Rom. 11:25). There is another work that God is going to do with the Jewish People WHEN "the Deliver shall come out of Zion" (Rom. 11:26) which is YET FUTURE ("shall"). There is another work that God is going to do WHEN he takes that which was "cut off" and grafts it back "AGAIN" (Rom. 11:22). You are totally blind to these scriptures and you run from them because your HALF truth theory cannot deal with the FULL light of Scriptures.
Paul explicitly tells you WHY he purposed to harden and reprobate the rest of the nation from the time of their rejection of Christ "until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in" (Rom. 11:25) and that is that salvation should come to the Gentile promised children and WHEN "the fullness of the Gentiles be come in" (Rom. 11:25) then God will graft what he has "cut off" back "again"!!
He has not cut off the remnant.
He has not cut off the gentile elect
He has cut off NATIONAL ISRAEL or Israel as a NATION and that is what he will graft in "AGAIN" when "the fullness of the Gentiles be come in" and THEN they will be grafted in AGAIN "And so ALL ISRAEL shall be saved."
Yes! They rejected Christ and God planned it that way so He could send his churches to the Gentiles so that the gentile promised children would have the gospel preached unto them BUT when "the fullness" of God's promised children among "the gentiles be COME IN" then the Same Jesus told NATIONAL ISRAEL:
Mt. 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
Rom. 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Rev. 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
Zech 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.
Paul had this to say to false teachers like you:
Rom.11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
Rom. 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Your HALF truths crumble before the FULL truth of God's Word and that is precisely why you wisely chose to stop at Romans 11:10 and not proceed to Romans 11:11-28 in an expository fashion as your HALF truth would be exposed for all to see.
savedbymercy
New Member
Rom 11:9
9And David saith, Let their [National Israel] table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
So Paul continues to show from scripture OT, that this rejection and blinding of National Israel was foretold . Notice He said let their table be made a stumblingblock, and as predicted, the Lord Jesus Christ to the Jew [ non elect ethnic Jew] was and is a stumblingblock 1 Cor 1:23
23But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
The word used in both places for stumblingblock is the greek word:
skandalon:
the movable stick or trigger of a trap, a trap stick
a) a trap, snare
b) any impediment placed in the way and causing one to stumble or fall, (a stumbling block, occasion of stumbling) i.e. a rock which is a cause of stumbling
Peter writes that their [ National Israel] disobedience was ordained or appointed ! 1 Pet 2:7-8
7Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders [National Israel] disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
8And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
So, all the bad things we read about, the stumbling of National Israel, The blinding, being trapped and ensnared by Jesus Christ, and they rejecting Him, all this was appointed by God.
Now we must keep in mind, that there are Two Israels , we get this from Rom 9:6 and it is not Israel the Elect Remnant, that these terrible judgments were against, but National Israel in general that these things were foretold of.
And its for a specific reason as we will see in this study.
9And David saith, Let their [National Israel] table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
So Paul continues to show from scripture OT, that this rejection and blinding of National Israel was foretold . Notice He said let their table be made a stumblingblock, and as predicted, the Lord Jesus Christ to the Jew [ non elect ethnic Jew] was and is a stumblingblock 1 Cor 1:23
23But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
The word used in both places for stumblingblock is the greek word:
skandalon:
the movable stick or trigger of a trap, a trap stick
a) a trap, snare
b) any impediment placed in the way and causing one to stumble or fall, (a stumbling block, occasion of stumbling) i.e. a rock which is a cause of stumbling
Peter writes that their [ National Israel] disobedience was ordained or appointed ! 1 Pet 2:7-8
7Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders [National Israel] disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
8And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
So, all the bad things we read about, the stumbling of National Israel, The blinding, being trapped and ensnared by Jesus Christ, and they rejecting Him, all this was appointed by God.
Now we must keep in mind, that there are Two Israels , we get this from Rom 9:6 and it is not Israel the Elect Remnant, that these terrible judgments were against, but National Israel in general that these things were foretold of.
And its for a specific reason as we will see in this study.
Dr. Walter
New Member
Yeah, right! You have to keep inserting this propaganda into the text becasue you cannot deal with Romans 11:11 with its grammatical relationship with these verses as well as the verses that follow verse 11. We have read your commentary on verses 7-10 lets see you handle the pronouns and the explicit denial in verse 11 and see how your progranda and abusive interpretation of verses 7-10 turns out???
savedbymercy
New Member
Rom 11:9-10
9And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them
Once again, this verse is about God Judging the wicked Nation of Israel. David who was a type of Christ, and what is termed a Messianic psalm speaks a curse upon this Nation. BTW, this was the Lord Jesus Christ sentiment as well towards the wicked Nation. The Lord Jesus Christ prayed imprecating prayers against this People.
Neither does the prayer of Christ change anything or is contradictory when He prayed these words Lk 23:34
Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.
This utterance was not for the nation, but for the Remnant of the Election of grace that partook in ignorance with His death.
There were some Jews who like Paul, did what they did while in ignorance and unbelief. 1 Tim 1:12-13
12And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;
13Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
And so, there were other Jews of the Election of Grace, who acted in ignorance , but they will be converted none the less by the grace of God as Paul was.
But for the most part, The Lord Jesus Christ desired their destruction as a Nation, and He brought it to pass with the Roman armies later.
vs 10 continues:
10Let their [National Israel] eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
Now, it is no Love of God towards this wicked people, For , The Lord Jesus Christ is praying against their conversion, against the enlightening of their eyes of understanding.
This desire and prayer of the Blessed Redeemer has been answered and will continue to be answered.
9And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them
Once again, this verse is about God Judging the wicked Nation of Israel. David who was a type of Christ, and what is termed a Messianic psalm speaks a curse upon this Nation. BTW, this was the Lord Jesus Christ sentiment as well towards the wicked Nation. The Lord Jesus Christ prayed imprecating prayers against this People.
Neither does the prayer of Christ change anything or is contradictory when He prayed these words Lk 23:34
Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.
This utterance was not for the nation, but for the Remnant of the Election of grace that partook in ignorance with His death.
There were some Jews who like Paul, did what they did while in ignorance and unbelief. 1 Tim 1:12-13
12And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;
13Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
And so, there were other Jews of the Election of Grace, who acted in ignorance , but they will be converted none the less by the grace of God as Paul was.
But for the most part, The Lord Jesus Christ desired their destruction as a Nation, and He brought it to pass with the Roman armies later.
vs 10 continues:
10Let their [National Israel] eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
Now, it is no Love of God towards this wicked people, For , The Lord Jesus Christ is praying against their conversion, against the enlightening of their eyes of understanding.
This desire and prayer of the Blessed Redeemer has been answered and will continue to be answered.
Dr. Walter
New Member
You just can't get to verse 11 can you? You repeat the same HALF TRUTH nonsense and base your HALF TRUTH nonsense on the same scriptures JERKED out of context.
Romans 11:9-10 describes only the PRESENT STATE of Israel which Romans 11:11-25 clearly teaches is a TEMPORARY STATE that continues for a STATED PURPOSE but will END at a SPECIFIC TIME - "till the fullness of the Gentiles be come in" and then that CONDITION described by David will be CHANGED by God due to His elective purpose (11:28) when Christ comes back from heaven in keeping witih Christ's own words to the same ISRAEL He rejected because they rejected Him in Matthew 23:37-38 but which he also predicted would receive Him at His second Advent:
Mt. 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
Rom. 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes.
This is confirmed by Zechariah 12:12-14 and John in Revelatioon 1:7.
You have only HALF of the truth while denying the other HALF of the Truth. Absolute proof you are wrong is that you are incapable of dealing with the scriptures that teach the other HALF. You are silent. You can't deal with Romans 11:11 and its grammatical relationship to Romans 11:7-10 or its relationship with Roman 11:12-28. You cannot deal with the pronouns of Romans 11:11. You cannot deal with the absolute flat denial of your interpretation by Paul in Romans 11:11 and you never will be able to because you are teaching a falsehood.
You just can't deal with Matthew 23:39 where Jesus told the very ones that represented the nation of Israe
savedbymercy
New Member
Romans 11:10
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
I am not going to leave vs 10 as of yet, because of what it is saying, and from where it is saying it from, it would behoove us to look at the rest of the context from where this scripture was taken Ps 69:23-28
23Let their eyes be darkened, that they see not; and make their loins continually to shake.
24Pour out thine indignation upon them, and let thy wrathful anger take hold of them.
25Let their habitation be desolate; and let none dwell in their tents.
26For they persecute him whom thou hast smitten; and they talk to the grief of those whom thou hast wounded.
27Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into thy righteousness.
28Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.
This is a Messianic psalm and prophecy, and the very Spirit of Christ is in the prophet David offering the very words of Christ [1Pet 1:11] speaking His thoughts and prayers as when He was actually going through His ordeal with the jews.
Lets look at vs 24
Pour out thine indignation upon them, and let thy wrathful anger take hold of them.
For the Lord Jesus Christ is petitioning His Holy Father to pour out His Wrath on this ungodly nation, His Indignation, and His wrathful anger, this is very serious, I cannot perceive no Love of Christ towards this people, not with such vengeful words as these.
vs 25 He prays for that nation [ their habitation ] be left desolate, for Job speaks of the desolation of the wicked Job 15:34
34For the congregation of hypocrites shall be desolate, and fire shall consume the tabernacles of bribery.
Now how many times did the Lord call this people hypocrites?
Matt 23:13-15,23,25-29
13But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
14Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
15Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
23Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone
25Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
27Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
28Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
29Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
And Jesus finally said Matt 23:38
Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
See how Job's scripture comes to pass with this wicked nation?
Jesus asked them a rhetorical question ! How could they escape the damnation of hell Matt 23:33
33Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
And remember just back in vs 15 He called them children of Hell !
If you think this is a beloved people of God, you are sorely deceived.
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
I am not going to leave vs 10 as of yet, because of what it is saying, and from where it is saying it from, it would behoove us to look at the rest of the context from where this scripture was taken Ps 69:23-28
23Let their eyes be darkened, that they see not; and make their loins continually to shake.
24Pour out thine indignation upon them, and let thy wrathful anger take hold of them.
25Let their habitation be desolate; and let none dwell in their tents.
26For they persecute him whom thou hast smitten; and they talk to the grief of those whom thou hast wounded.
27Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into thy righteousness.
28Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.
This is a Messianic psalm and prophecy, and the very Spirit of Christ is in the prophet David offering the very words of Christ [1Pet 1:11] speaking His thoughts and prayers as when He was actually going through His ordeal with the jews.
Lets look at vs 24
Pour out thine indignation upon them, and let thy wrathful anger take hold of them.
For the Lord Jesus Christ is petitioning His Holy Father to pour out His Wrath on this ungodly nation, His Indignation, and His wrathful anger, this is very serious, I cannot perceive no Love of Christ towards this people, not with such vengeful words as these.
vs 25 He prays for that nation [ their habitation ] be left desolate, for Job speaks of the desolation of the wicked Job 15:34
34For the congregation of hypocrites shall be desolate, and fire shall consume the tabernacles of bribery.
Now how many times did the Lord call this people hypocrites?
Matt 23:13-15,23,25-29
13But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
14Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
15Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
23Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone
25Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
27Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
28Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
29Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
And Jesus finally said Matt 23:38
Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
See how Job's scripture comes to pass with this wicked nation?
Jesus asked them a rhetorical question ! How could they escape the damnation of hell Matt 23:33
33Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
And remember just back in vs 15 He called them children of Hell !
If you think this is a beloved people of God, you are sorely deceived.
Dr. Walter
New Member
Still can't get to verse 11 - still trying to progandize your HALF truth. Propaganize your HALF truth all you like but the HALF error that you are desperately attempting to join with your HALF truth - the complete rejection of National Israel by God - will come crashing down when and if you are brave enough to deal with the grammatical and contextual factors of Romans 11:11-28.
savedbymercy
New Member
dw
You are very impatient ! I have already told you I am going verse by verse. You should be paying attention to the verses leading up to vs 11. And just think, you have the nerve to be talking about contextual..
You are very impatient ! I have already told you I am going verse by verse. You should be paying attention to the verses leading up to vs 11. And just think, you have the nerve to be talking about contextual..
Dr. Walter
New Member
I have read your HALF truths coupled with your proganda half ERROR and verse 11 will expose your half ERROR.
You have made yourself clear over and over and over and over again. So there is no turning back for you now. There is no reverse. Your position has been is and shall be that God has repudiated NATIONAL ETHNIC ISRAEL for time and eternity and that the only Jews that God saves will be "remnant" Israel which you say is not or never will be ALL NATINAL ETHNIC ISRAEL!
So what is New??????? Verse 11 simply denies your proganda outright "God forbid" and demands that it is the SAME ISRAEL in verses 7-10 that is the subject of verse 11. The pronouns demand it.
The only difference between verses 7-10 and verse 11 is TIME. It is not TIME for Israel as a nation to be saved. Until that TIME arrives Israel as a nation is rejected, condemned and repudiated by God except for the remnant that God has saved and is saving and will save UNTIL it is time for God to save ALL ETHNIC NATIONAL ISRAEL at the second advent.
It is that simple!
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
The same "their" of verse 10 is the same "their" of verse 11 - case closed.
You interpret verses 7-10 to claim ETHNIC NATIONAL ISRAEL is not part of God's redemptive plan in the future but Paul in verse 11 asks that very question and then explicitly responds "GOD FORBID."
Nothing you will be able to say will change what it says!
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savedbymercy
New Member
dw
Those verses leading up to vs 11 are very important, for they were actually expressing the very mind of Christ on that nation and people, Israel according to the Flesh. He was not referring to Israel of the Election of Grace. Its Two Israel's Rom 9:6. One was a very small spiritual remnant the other was a nation related to Abraham by the flesh. The Israel related to Abraham only by means of the Flesh, they were not the Children of God and had no promises made unto them. Rom 9:8
8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
When scripture says this Isa 45:25
In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.
This Promise is not speaking about National Israel according to the Flesh..Thats not the Seed of Israel that is being spoken of, sorry..
Those verses leading up to vs 11 are very important, for they were actually expressing the very mind of Christ on that nation and people, Israel according to the Flesh. He was not referring to Israel of the Election of Grace. Its Two Israel's Rom 9:6. One was a very small spiritual remnant the other was a nation related to Abraham by the flesh. The Israel related to Abraham only by means of the Flesh, they were not the Children of God and had no promises made unto them. Rom 9:8
8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
When scripture says this Isa 45:25
In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.
This Promise is not speaking about National Israel according to the Flesh..Thats not the Seed of Israel that is being spoken of, sorry..
Dr. Walter
New Member
What is self evident is, if you could deal with Romans 11:11 you would, but you can't and so you don't - CASE CLOSED!
savedbymercy
New Member
Lets continue to look at ps 69 as we ponder the prayer of imprecation of Christ through David against the Nation of Israel.
Ps 69:26
26For they persecute him whom thou hast smitten; and they talk to the grief of those whom thou hast wounded.
This points again to Jesus Christ for was He not the one who was smitten of God ? Isa 53:4
4Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
Was He not wounded ? Isa 53:5
5But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Again, this is evidence of Christ call out for vengeance on this corrupt people, this seed of the serpent.
27Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into thy righteousness.
Far from praying for the forgiveness of this ungodly nation [ except for the election of grace within it] Jesus prays for their guilt to increase; may they treasures up unto themselves wrath against the day of wrath, and the revelation of the righteous Judgment of God.
Now see this next curse, " let them [ The Nation ] not come into thy righteousness ! Don't we see the answer to this request here ? Rom 10:3
3For they [National Israel] being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
This prayer of Christ is not wishy washy, to be His desire one day, and not His desire the next. This nation [ except for the Election of Grace in it] will always be ignorant of Gods Righteousness and Salvation;
And to prove that I am not stretching the Truth, look at the very next verse 28
28Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.
This indicates total exclusion from the Lambs book of life. Remember in the revelation this phrase ?
Rev 3:5,22
5He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
22:
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
The Nation of Israel as a whole has been rejected of God, excluded from the very City of God, the General Assembly and the Church of the Firstborn " WHICH ARE WRITTEN IN HEAVEN" [ see Heb 12:22-23]
For the the ethnic Nation of Israel as a whole, the corporate Israel, has no part in the Great Salvation of God through Jesus Christ, but again, there is a Election of Grace in her who will partake, for their names had been written in the Lambs book of Life from the foundation.
Let us not overlook that this is the inspired prayer, of the Lord Jesus Christ, through His type, the King David, for this gives us to see the very mind and heart of the Lord Jesus Christ towards this God Forsaken nation, and you can be sure that all His prayers against them hath been or will be answered according to His Mind.
Ps 69:26
26For they persecute him whom thou hast smitten; and they talk to the grief of those whom thou hast wounded.
This points again to Jesus Christ for was He not the one who was smitten of God ? Isa 53:4
4Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
Was He not wounded ? Isa 53:5
5But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Again, this is evidence of Christ call out for vengeance on this corrupt people, this seed of the serpent.
27Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into thy righteousness.
Far from praying for the forgiveness of this ungodly nation [ except for the election of grace within it] Jesus prays for their guilt to increase; may they treasures up unto themselves wrath against the day of wrath, and the revelation of the righteous Judgment of God.
Now see this next curse, " let them [ The Nation ] not come into thy righteousness ! Don't we see the answer to this request here ? Rom 10:3
3For they [National Israel] being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
This prayer of Christ is not wishy washy, to be His desire one day, and not His desire the next. This nation [ except for the Election of Grace in it] will always be ignorant of Gods Righteousness and Salvation;
And to prove that I am not stretching the Truth, look at the very next verse 28
28Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.
This indicates total exclusion from the Lambs book of life. Remember in the revelation this phrase ?
Rev 3:5,22
5He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
22:
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
The Nation of Israel as a whole has been rejected of God, excluded from the very City of God, the General Assembly and the Church of the Firstborn " WHICH ARE WRITTEN IN HEAVEN" [ see Heb 12:22-23]
For the the ethnic Nation of Israel as a whole, the corporate Israel, has no part in the Great Salvation of God through Jesus Christ, but again, there is a Election of Grace in her who will partake, for their names had been written in the Lambs book of Life from the foundation.
Let us not overlook that this is the inspired prayer, of the Lord Jesus Christ, through His type, the King David, for this gives us to see the very mind and heart of the Lord Jesus Christ towards this God Forsaken nation, and you can be sure that all His prayers against them hath been or will be answered according to His Mind.
Dr. Walter
New Member
You are building a straw man and then burning it! Yahoo!
The fact is that nobody denies that God has rejected and turned away from National Israel.
Nobody denies that such a rejection was predicted by the prophets.
Nobody denies that Paul taught the same thing!
However, what I do deny and what Christ denies and what Paul denies is that this rejection is PERMENANT and that is exactly the HALF ERROR you are progandizing!
1. Jesus rejects your error in Matthew 23:39
2. Paul rejects your error in Romans 11:11-28
3. John rejects your error in Reve. 1:7
4. Luke rejects your error in Acts 3:20-21
Again, if you could deal with the grammar and explicit denial of Romans 11:11 YOU WOULD - BUT YOU CAN'T and so you don't - case closed
The fact is that nobody denies that God has rejected and turned away from National Israel.
Nobody denies that such a rejection was predicted by the prophets.
Nobody denies that Paul taught the same thing!
However, what I do deny and what Christ denies and what Paul denies is that this rejection is PERMENANT and that is exactly the HALF ERROR you are progandizing!
1. Jesus rejects your error in Matthew 23:39
2. Paul rejects your error in Romans 11:11-28
3. John rejects your error in Reve. 1:7
4. Luke rejects your error in Acts 3:20-21
Again, if you could deal with the grammar and explicit denial of Romans 11:11 YOU WOULD - BUT YOU CAN'T and so you don't - case closed
savedbymercy
New Member
As we continue to look at Rom 11, we are discovering what Paul taught about Israel, for remember, Paul after His conversion and enlightenment, understood it to be Two Israel's, and that is why He wrote Rom 9:6
6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Paul recognizes a Israel of Promise and a National Israel. The National Israel was comprised of both elect and non elect people. But Israel of Promise is comprised only of elect people of both Jew and Gentile ethnicity; but for the most part up until Paul's time, most of the Israel of Promise was made up of Elect Jews, but this was about to change.
Now Rom 11:11
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
God had a wise purpose behind the fall and rejection of National Israel, for it was through this avenue He would Graft in the Gentiles with Covenant Israel of Promise [ The Election of Grace] and that would complete God's chosen Israel of God Eph 2:11-19
11Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; [ Elect Covenant Israel of Promise or The Election of Grace]
That Salvation would come to the Gentiles has always been God's foreordained plan and purpose Acts 15:13-18
13And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
14Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people [ Israel] for his name .
15And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
18Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
For this was a work of God. God's hardening of National Israel was the way He chose to righteously bring in the Gentiles, who also were of the seed of Abraham, into the fold of the [ Elect Covenant Israel, the Election of grace] of the Ethnic Jews, and they twain would become one Israel or one fold.
The Truth of the matter is that there was a Elect Covenant Israel in National Israel, and there was a Elect Covenant Israel [ Mystery] in the Gentiles [ Acts 15:14].
Now you may object, and declare this is not true, but it is True, for you see, Israel is another term for the Seed of Abraham, that is, the Seed of Abraham is Israel, and Israel is the Seed of Abraham.
Isa 41:8
But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend.
Abraham was promised to be the Father of not one, but many Nations Gen 17:5
5Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
This has to be spiritual and not fleshly. For if it was fleshly, then only one nation is Abraham the Father of and not many.
Now, He could not have been a Father without having a Offspring or Seed, and Just like His offspring according to the flesh is called Israel, so likewise His offspring or seed according to promise [ In all nations, spiritually] are called Israel, for they are Israel after the spirit or by the promise.
They along with the Spiritual Israel in National Israel, are the Spiritual seed [ Israel] of Abraham, the Israel of God Gal 3:29 and Gal 6:15-16.
For Gentiles who have Abraham as a Father, has just as much right, even more, to be called Israel, because the Father of Israel is Abraham, for the key to being Spiritual Israel and the seed of Abraham is being in Christ, Abraham's real seed Gal 3:16,29
16Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed [Israel], and heirs according to the promise.
6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Paul recognizes a Israel of Promise and a National Israel. The National Israel was comprised of both elect and non elect people. But Israel of Promise is comprised only of elect people of both Jew and Gentile ethnicity; but for the most part up until Paul's time, most of the Israel of Promise was made up of Elect Jews, but this was about to change.
Now Rom 11:11
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
God had a wise purpose behind the fall and rejection of National Israel, for it was through this avenue He would Graft in the Gentiles with Covenant Israel of Promise [ The Election of Grace] and that would complete God's chosen Israel of God Eph 2:11-19
11Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; [ Elect Covenant Israel of Promise or The Election of Grace]
That Salvation would come to the Gentiles has always been God's foreordained plan and purpose Acts 15:13-18
13And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
14Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people [ Israel] for his name .
15And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
18Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
For this was a work of God. God's hardening of National Israel was the way He chose to righteously bring in the Gentiles, who also were of the seed of Abraham, into the fold of the [ Elect Covenant Israel, the Election of grace] of the Ethnic Jews, and they twain would become one Israel or one fold.
The Truth of the matter is that there was a Elect Covenant Israel in National Israel, and there was a Elect Covenant Israel [ Mystery] in the Gentiles [ Acts 15:14].
Now you may object, and declare this is not true, but it is True, for you see, Israel is another term for the Seed of Abraham, that is, the Seed of Abraham is Israel, and Israel is the Seed of Abraham.
Isa 41:8
But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend.
Abraham was promised to be the Father of not one, but many Nations Gen 17:5
5Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
This has to be spiritual and not fleshly. For if it was fleshly, then only one nation is Abraham the Father of and not many.
Now, He could not have been a Father without having a Offspring or Seed, and Just like His offspring according to the flesh is called Israel, so likewise His offspring or seed according to promise [ In all nations, spiritually] are called Israel, for they are Israel after the spirit or by the promise.
They along with the Spiritual Israel in National Israel, are the Spiritual seed [ Israel] of Abraham, the Israel of God Gal 3:29 and Gal 6:15-16.
For Gentiles who have Abraham as a Father, has just as much right, even more, to be called Israel, because the Father of Israel is Abraham, for the key to being Spiritual Israel and the seed of Abraham is being in Christ, Abraham's real seed Gal 3:16,29
16Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed [Israel], and heirs according to the promise.
Dr. Walter
New Member
This is PURE EISEGESIS. You read into this text and context what you want. You are a very dishonest and deceptive human being. Truth has no value in your handling of scripture. You could care less what the Bible says IN CONTEXT. You arrange the scriptures to suit your own lusts (desires).
You take a HALF truth and consistently DISTORT the other HALF of this Biblical truth .
I defy and dare you to honestly deal with the pronouns in Romans 11:10-11!!!
This is the only way a false teacher like you can deal with Romans 11:10-11 you must SEPARATE verse 10 from verse 11 - You must IGNORE the grammatical evidence.
You are handling the Scriptures like every cultist handles the scriptures - no difference at all.
I don't claim to be any prophet, but it is very easy to predict how you will continue to handle Romans 11. You will take the HALF TRUTH that we all agree with - God has rejected National Israel - to deny every text that teaches the other HALF TRUTH - This rejection is TEMPORARY and ALL NATIONAL ISRAEL ONE DAY WILL BE ALL ELECT ISRAEL!!! You will mishandle and distort the scriptures all for your own belly (Rom. 16:18).
Those who consistently reject the truth when it is placed in their face with irrefutable evidence, GOD WILL GIVE THEM OVER to more error and that is exactly where you are headed.
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Dr. Walter
New Member
SGB does what every false teacher does who defends their false doctrine.
1. They jerk scriptures out of context - This is what SBG has done to Rom. 9:8. This is strictly a JEWISH context (Rom. 9:1-13) without any consideration of any Gentile elect.
2. They base their doctrine on HALF the truth - This is what SBG has done to Romans 11:1-10. He takes all the scriptures throughout the Bible that agree with the truth expressed in Romans 11:1-10 and then uses that truth to deny, distort and reinterpret another equally valid truth expressed in Romans 11:10-28. However, he attempts to reinterpret Romans 11:11-28 to mean the same thing as Romans 11:1-10 and thereby pit one truth against another truth.
3. They abuse the immedate context - This is what SBG is presently doing to Romans 11:10-11 where both truths are side by side and yet he has taken verse 10 to deny verse 11 when the grammar demands it is the same entity that is the subject of both passages.
4. They ignore grammatical evidence that opposes their half truths - This is what SBG is presently doing with the pronouns in Romans 10:7-11. The same entity being spoken of in verses 7-10 by the pronoun "their" is the same entity being addressed in verse 11 by the pronoun "their." When you point this out he IGNORES it.
CONCLUSION: SBG pits scripture against scripture! SBG reads into texts (Rom. 11:11) what the text not only does not say but actually what that text explicitly denies ("God forbid"). SBG is an eisegete not an exegete.
However, it does not matter what a false teacher does it does not change the words, grammar, explicit statements found in the scriptures. There are two truths taught side by side throughout the scriptures concerning ETHNIC NATIONAL ISREAL.
1. They are God's Elect Nation even in their time of depravity
2. They presently reject God and are rejected by God and will continue to be rejected by God UNTIL the fullness of the Gentiles be come in and then ALL ISRAEL shall be saved according to his purpose of election
Romans 11:10-11 is irrefutable proof that the "Israel" of Romans 11 is completely without Gentiles and is distinct and separate from the generational "remnant".
There is nothing that SBG or any other false teacher can do to change this truth as the pronouns are unchangable. The exact entity defined by the pronouns "their" and "them" in verses 7-10 is the exact entity continued to be spoken of by Paul in verse 11-28 by the same "their" and "them." The antecedents to these pronouns cannot be Gentiles saved or lost. The antecedents to these pronouns cannot be the elect "remnant" in each generation as the "remnant" is placed in contrast to "their" and "them" and the "remnant" is not the object of God's rejection as is "their" and "them." The "remnant" is not being rejected dy God during the time of the Gentiles as "their" and "them" and "they" are. The "remnant" is not the YET FUTURE object of salvation like the "their" and "they" and "them" are in Romans 11:25, 28 but rather is the PRESENT object of salvation (Rom. 11:5).
These are irrefutable contextuallbased grammatical fixtures that no amount of deceitful handling of God's Word by SBG or anyone else can overthrow or reinterpret if TRUTH is the objective.
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Dr. Walter
New Member
Here are some questions that SBG will never attempt to answer truthfully or directly about Romans 11:10-11
QUESTION #1 - What "Israel" stumbles but does not utterly fall in verse 11?
v. 11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
QUESTION #2 - What "Israel" is described as stumbling in verses 7-10 that Paul demands will not utterly fall in verse 11?
9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
QUESTION #3 - Why is their a change of Greek terms for "fall" in verse 11? What kind of "fall" is vehemently denied "God forbid" versus the kind of "fall" that is acknowledged by Paul? What kind of "fall" does God forbid versus what kind of fall does God allow for Israel????
I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall [πιπτω pipto pip’-to]? God forbid: but rather through their fall [παραπτωμα paraptoma] salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
QUESTION #4 - What is the nearest grammatical antecedent for the pronouns "they" and "their" and "them" in verse 11?
v. 11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
ANSWER: - 7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear
unto this day.
9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
The term "Israel" is a SINGULAR noun and calls for the third person SINGULAR verb translated "he" but is at the same time inclusive of a plural people "them" just like the term "church" (ekklesia) is a SINGULAR noun that calls for a third person SINGULAR verb translated "it" but at the same time inclusive of a plural people.
Eph. 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
QUESTION #5 - What Israel is placed in CONTRAST to the Gentiles who do "come in" in verse 25?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
QUESTION: #6 - What "part" of Israel is not blind presently while the Gentiles are coming in? and what "Israel" will not remain blind when the fullness of the Gentiles do come in
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
I dare you to answer these questions truthfully and honestly!!
QUESTION #1 - What "Israel" stumbles but does not utterly fall in verse 11?
v. 11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
QUESTION #2 - What "Israel" is described as stumbling in verses 7-10 that Paul demands will not utterly fall in verse 11?
9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
QUESTION #3 - Why is their a change of Greek terms for "fall" in verse 11? What kind of "fall" is vehemently denied "God forbid" versus the kind of "fall" that is acknowledged by Paul? What kind of "fall" does God forbid versus what kind of fall does God allow for Israel????
I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall [πιπτω pipto pip’-to]? God forbid: but rather through their fall [παραπτωμα paraptoma] salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
QUESTION #4 - What is the nearest grammatical antecedent for the pronouns "they" and "their" and "them" in verse 11?
v. 11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
ANSWER: - 7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear
unto this day.9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
The term "Israel" is a SINGULAR noun and calls for the third person SINGULAR verb translated "he" but is at the same time inclusive of a plural people "them" just like the term "church" (ekklesia) is a SINGULAR noun that calls for a third person SINGULAR verb translated "it" but at the same time inclusive of a plural people.
Eph. 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
QUESTION #5 - What Israel is placed in CONTRAST to the Gentiles who do "come in" in verse 25?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
QUESTION: #6 - What "part" of Israel is not blind presently while the Gentiles are coming in? and what "Israel" will not remain blind when the fullness of the Gentiles do come in
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
I dare you to answer these questions truthfully and honestly!!
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savedbymercy
New Member
So this is what is happening in vs 11 as Rom 11:11
11I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
This was not a causeless, haphazard event, but a preordained plan and purpose coming to past, centered in Gods Eternal Purpose in Christ as per Eph 3:11.
Also this plan or purpose, God with it intended on stirring up jealousy, to which, with the blessing of God, and application of the scriptures, there still would be a remnant of the election of grace, that would be converted to Christ, and added to or grafted into the Israel of God.
Salvation has always been to Israel [ Abraham's seed] but what was not known was that the Israel which Salvation was promised to, was a Spiritual Israel that went beyond the ethnic Nation of Israel, for Abraham's seed went beyond the Nation of Israel [ see Gen 17:5] and Abraham had a seed in Christ [ Gal 3:16]
This is why in some prophecies, when salvation is mentioned to Israel, its quickly added and to the Gentiles i.e
Isa 42:6
6I the LORD have called thee [Jesus Christ] in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
This indicates that the gentiles were partakers of the same covenant promises as the people [ Jews of the election of grace]
Isa 49:6
6And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
The preserved of Israel is the election of grace, the remnant in National Israel, and the gentiles are the election of grace within the Nations outside of National Israel, all together make up the seed of Abraham through Christ Abraham's seed [ Gal 3:16]
Lk 2:31-32
31Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people;
32A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.
This mystery was not clearly understood until Paul and thats why Paul preached with understanding, when He declared this in Acts 13:23
23Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:
Paul here was not talking about Israel according to flesh, but of the promise, this Israel hath no ethnicity. Remember Paul was a Minister to the gentiles when He preached this sermon in Acts 13, and to show that it did not matter what his audience was, He was asked by the gentiles [ who obviously heard] to speak to them on the next Sabbath, those very same words Acts 13:42
42And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
Because the Saviour unto Israel vs 23, applied to them as equally, if they were of the election of grace, the spiritual seed of Abraham.
11I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
This was not a causeless, haphazard event, but a preordained plan and purpose coming to past, centered in Gods Eternal Purpose in Christ as per Eph 3:11.
Also this plan or purpose, God with it intended on stirring up jealousy, to which, with the blessing of God, and application of the scriptures, there still would be a remnant of the election of grace, that would be converted to Christ, and added to or grafted into the Israel of God.
Salvation has always been to Israel [ Abraham's seed] but what was not known was that the Israel which Salvation was promised to, was a Spiritual Israel that went beyond the ethnic Nation of Israel, for Abraham's seed went beyond the Nation of Israel [ see Gen 17:5] and Abraham had a seed in Christ [ Gal 3:16]
This is why in some prophecies, when salvation is mentioned to Israel, its quickly added and to the Gentiles i.e
Isa 42:6
6I the LORD have called thee [Jesus Christ] in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
This indicates that the gentiles were partakers of the same covenant promises as the people [ Jews of the election of grace]
Isa 49:6
6And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
The preserved of Israel is the election of grace, the remnant in National Israel, and the gentiles are the election of grace within the Nations outside of National Israel, all together make up the seed of Abraham through Christ Abraham's seed [ Gal 3:16]
Lk 2:31-32
31Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people;
32A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.
This mystery was not clearly understood until Paul and thats why Paul preached with understanding, when He declared this in Acts 13:23
23Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:
Paul here was not talking about Israel according to flesh, but of the promise, this Israel hath no ethnicity. Remember Paul was a Minister to the gentiles when He preached this sermon in Acts 13, and to show that it did not matter what his audience was, He was asked by the gentiles [ who obviously heard] to speak to them on the next Sabbath, those very same words Acts 13:42
42And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
Because the Saviour unto Israel vs 23, applied to them as equally, if they were of the election of grace, the spiritual seed of Abraham.