Do You regard Doctrine of Gifts Continuing/Ceasing as being "essential?"

[DHK]

Thanks for your long explanation, and please forgive me if mine was a little too long, but, I wanted to point out that our differences are more set in stone in your heart and mind then they are in mine!

Shalom,

Pastor Paul :type

Thank you Paul. I would still count you as a dear brother in the Lord despite our differences and would in no way break fellowship with you despite how adamant I come across. I simply express my beliefs in the same way that I preach them--with conviction. With that we can agree to disagree. May the Lord bless your ministry.

 

[JesusFan]

I have a question for those who believe that the gifts are still in operation today.
Can anyone point to anyone who has been healed or raised from the dead outside the bible that can be clinically and physically verified? By healed I mean just like in the bible. On the spot not several days later and the condition never returns. This must be someone who you know of personally or can show with absolute proof they had the problem and was healed. This must not be in response to prayer, but because someone went to them and healed them on the spot or raised them from the dead. Anyone?
Or someone with the gift of miracles. They would be able to do things like turning water into wine, walking on water, feeding multitudes with very little and so on. Anyone?

Miracles and healings are both done by God based upon His soverign grace and Will..

they are NOT normative for today, but He still does this as He so wills for Himself to be glorified...

I am a "moderate" charastmatic, as do NOT believe that all this is Normative as in Acts, just that God can still ove as He so wills!

That NO second act of Grace today, nor tongues "evidence" of anythign other than a Gift from the Lord...

Don't ALL affirm that?

 

[DHK]

Miracles and healings are both done by God based upon His soverign grace and Will..

they are NOT normative for today, but He still does this as He so wills for Himself to be glorified...

I am a "moderate" charastmatic, as do NOT believe that all this is Normative as in Acts, just that God can still ove as He so wills!

That NO second act of Grace today, nor tongues "evidence" of anythign other than a Gift from the Lord...

Don't ALL affirm that?

No.
Oneness Pentecostal believe that tongues are a requirement for salvation.
AOG believes that tongues are evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit and is a subsequent blessing after salvation. They have the attitude that you MUST seek this. You are not spiritual if you don't.

Almost all Charismatics require that a person speak in tongues. Thus the term "Charismatic." It is the tongue-speaking that unites them all together. It is their common bond.

Tongues in the Bible are ALWAYS real known language--unknown the person speaking them but known to the person listening. Their practical purpose would be the same as a missionary going to a foreign land and not knowing the language. God would give the person the gift of a foreign language. That doesn't happen any longer. Even the Charismatic missionaries have to learn foreign languages which defeats their very belief in the gift.

Tongues in the Bible was never the "gibberish" that we hear today. That is not tongues. It never was.
What does it say in Acts.
"How hear we every man in his own tongue" (language). About 13 different nations and "tongues" or languages are listed and represented and they spoke in those different languages--not in gibberish.

Give evidence today where people have the Biblical gift of languages--where they don't have to study foreign languages but can immediately speak in another foreign language that they have never studied or encountered in order to spread the gospel. Don't give some obscure anecdotal reference. If this gift were for today it would be happening in all of our churches. After all the gift was given to some in each church as needed. It was popular. But the languages were real.

Secondly, the another reason for the gift of languages was for a sign for the unbelieving Jew of the first century that judgement was coming. It was a prophecy given in Isaiah 28:11,12 quoted by Paul in 1Cor.14:21,22. It came to pass in 70 A.D. for the Jews rejected the sign as the rejected the message of the gospel and rejected Christ.

The third reason was to validate the apostles and the apostles' message.
This is given in Heb.2:3,4. The signs and wonders and gifts of the Holy Spirit were given in abundance to the apostles to validated them as God's messengers. Others may have had those gifts but not to the extent that the apostles did.

Paul did not write this in a vacuum. Words have meaning:
Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds. (2 Corinthians 12:12)

 

[freeatlast]

Miracles and healings are both done by God based upon His soverign grace and Will..

they are NOT normative for today, but He still does this as He so wills for Himself to be glorified...

I am a "moderate" charastmatic, as do NOT believe that all this is Normative as in Acts, just that God can still ove as He so wills!

That NO second act of Grace today, nor tongues "evidence" of anythign other than a Gift from the Lord...

Don't ALL affirm that?

That is nice but this thread is about the gifts of the spirit and if they are still present today, not if God answers prayers.

 

[JesusFan]

No.
Oneness Pentecostal believe that tongues are a requirement for salvation.
AOG believes that tongues are evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit and is a subsequent blessing after salvation. They have the attitude that you MUST seek this. You are not spiritual if you don't.

Almost all Charismatics require that a person speak in tongues. Thus the term "Charismatic." It is the tongue-speaking that unites them all together. It is their common bond.

Tongues in the Bible are ALWAYS real known language--unknown the person speaking them but known to the person listening. Their practical purpose would be the same as a missionary going to a foreign land and not knowing the language. God would give the person the gift of a foreign language. That doesn't happen any longer. Even the Charismatic missionaries have to learn foreign languages which defeats their very belief in the gift.

Tongues in the Bible was never the "gibberish" that we hear today. That is not tongues. It never was.
What does it say in Acts.
"How hear we every man in his own tongue" (language). About 13 different nations and "tongues" or languages are listed and represented and they spoke in those different languages--not in gibberish.

Give evidence today where people have the Biblical gift of languages--where they don't have to study foreign languages but can immediately speak in another foreign language that they have never studied or encountered in order to spread the gospel. Don't give some obscure anecdotal reference. If this gift were for today it would be happening in all of our churches. After all the gift was given to some in each church as needed. It was popular. But the languages were real.

Secondly, the another reason for the gift of languages was for a sign for the unbelieving Jew of the first century that judgement was coming. It was a prophecy given in Isaiah 28:11,12 quoted by Paul in 1Cor.14:21,22. It came to pass in 70 A.D. for the Jews rejected the sign as the rejected the message of the gospel and rejected Christ.

The third reason was to validate the apostles and the apostles' message.
This is given in Heb.2:3,4. The signs and wonders and gifts of the Holy Spirit were given in abundance to the apostles to validated them as God's messengers. Others may have had those gifts but not to the extent that the apostles did.

Paul did not write this in a vacuum. Words have meaning:
Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds. (2 Corinthians 12:12)

Seems that you still do not see that htere ARE moderate Charasmatics that do NOT see a lot of what passes today as being really from/of the Holy Spirit

Back to the OP that I orginaaly posted...

Is this a secondary doctrinal debate among the Bethren, or would you see it ALL being satanic/evil/heretical, and thus no way to even fellowshp with those holding to a continuation view on the Gifts?

 

[DHK]

Seems that you still do not see that htere ARE moderate Charasmatics that do NOT see a lot of what passes today as being really from/of the Holy Spirit

Back to the OP that I orginaaly posted...

Is this a secondary doctrinal debate among the Bethren, or would you see it ALL being satanic/evil/heretical, and thus no way to even fellowshp with those holding to a continuation view on the Gifts?

It depends what is meant by this statement: "those holding to a continuation view on the Gifts." If you mean it in the same way that Paul expressed himself I have no problem. If you believe and practice them, then I have a problem. Thus my preceding lengthy explanations as to why they could not possibly be in existence today and that no one is actually practicing them today. To say "I believe they are for today," is one thing. To point to the practice of them as they were practiced in the first century is quite another. There is not a person on this board that can do that. They have ceased and are not operational as they were in NT times. I believe and I practice are two different things.

 

[righteousdude2]

I Knew There Was A Reason....

Thank you Paul. I would still count you as a dear brother in the Lord despite our differences and would in no way break fellowship with you despite how adamant I come across. I simply express my beliefs in the same way that I preach them--with conviction. With that we can agree to disagree. May the Lord bless your ministry.

....I felt a Christ-like love for you! Where you and I have taken this conversation is what having His Spirit in us is all about! If only all of us on this forum could come together this way, the world would see how perfect His love is! :thumbsup:

You have demonstrated a Christ-like humilty that is seldom seen. I'd love to hear you preach, because I'd know it was not from your heart, but from the heart of God!

You have given me renewed hope that those who disagree, can still exist and have Christ like fellowship with each other.:wavey:

May He continue to lift up your ministry as you lift Him up! raying:

Shalom,

Pastor Paul :type:


PS-I'm not trying to peddle my book, but I think you, and others would love my book, Thorn Daze: The painful truth about prosperity teaching! I tried very hard to show those hurt by the WOF folks, a way back to the Kingdom, and a way to renew their faith. I was a victim of the WOF movement. When I failed to get healed from their prayers, the accusations started coming my way, and before I knew it, my faith had been seriously trampled under their feet as they left me for dead!

 

[JesusFan]

It depends what is meant by this statement: "those holding to a continuation view on the Gifts." If you mean it in the same way that Paul expressed himself I have no problem. If you believe and practice them, then I have a problem. Thus my preceding lengthy explanations as to why they could not possibly be in existence today and that no one is actually practicing them today. To say "I believe they are for today," is one thing. To point to the practice of them as they were practiced in the first century is quite another. There is not a person on this board that can do that. They have ceased and are not operational as they were in NT times. I believe and I practice are two different things.[/QUOTE

]

So then you would say that EVERYONE that would hold to a contiunation view of the Spiritual Gifts would be in error at best, and practicing heresay and false doctrines at worse?

Again, I hold that they continue as oper the Bible, but NOT in the revelatory fashion, that WAS fulfillment of OT prophecies at time of Acts, but there was a transistion from the primary meaning to the secondary ongoing fashion after Apostolic Age...

Examples are primary meaning of Apostle to be one with jesus or saw resurrected Christ, had inspiration bestowed unto them by God, NONE as such today, but those with authority to govern/direct groups of Churches would be current version..

same way NO prophets that can write/speak revealtions from lord, but one gifted by God today can and does give insight from scriptures, brings out their prophetic meaning, like say a chuck Colsen addresses society by them!

remember, there ARE some indeed hold to NO second act of grace, no "baptism in HS" no tongues as required to show saved, that Bible is cloed canon from God today...

Just saying to you MANY hold to that, 2 being myself and DR wayne Grudem!

And I DO still see you as being my brother in Christ, despite our differences in both Sotierology and in question about Gifts!
As these issues are important, BUT not essential to divide us , as jesus has made us both one in His Body!

 

[preacher4truth]

Neither do I.
This conversation is over. You are arguing for argument's sake. That is being contentious.

Not at all. There was no contention on my part whatsoever. I contended against your implications, in that you continued to argue as though I stated that I believe the gift exists today, and if any person would have read your posts they would have gathered that.

So I lined that out, and didn't let it ride.

Back to the facts and real matter. You used Scripture to try and prove that the gift of healing meant all that were gathered were all healed, against my statement that if the gift existed today it doesn't mean that the person has to heal an entire hospital to prove it.

You incorrectly used that passage, as the context of the matter at hand is believers "now" not Apostles "then." So, you clearly misunderstood what was at stake, and the context, and continued to play as though I stated the gifts exist, to which I addressed I've never stated such against your erroneous representation of myself. I'm certain you clearly understood and saw where I stated that I don't believe the gift exists, yet you continued as though I believe it, so I addressed it. Nothing contentious about that, it's called not allowing myself to be misrepresented by you.

If defending what I really said is contentious to you, sobeit.

 

[TCGreek]

Since Scripture do not, I do not.

 

[JesusFan]

Since Scripture do not, I do not.

Do not what?

ALL of the HS Gifts were in operatation during NT times, what passage states directly thast some would cease, while other continue forwrad?

 

[DHK]

]

So then you would say that EVERYONE that would hold to a contiunation view of the Spiritual Gifts would be in error at best, and practicing heresay and false doctrines at worse?

You could say that, or at least close to that.
It grieves me to hear someone say: "I believe I can do this, but in reality I can't." It is the height of hypocrisy and arrogance, wouldn't you agree?
If you (or anyone else) can speak in foreign languages, heal multitudes of peoples of any kind of disease or infirmities (broken bones, blindness, MS, ALS, Cerebral Palsy, Epilepsy, Alzheimers, various cancers (the ones in the hospital that people are dying from) palliative care patients, etc. If you have these gifts then don't be a hypocrite but practice them so people can be healed, so missionaries don't have to learn foreign languages. See the hypocrisy in claiming they are operational when they are not. There is no evidence of these gifts being operational.

Again, I hold that they continue as oper the Bible, but NOT in the revelatory fashion, that WAS fulfillment of OT prophecies at time of Acts, but there was a transistion from the primary meaning to the secondary ongoing fashion after Apostolic Age...

There is no revelation in the gift of healing, but no one practicing it. It has ceased.

Examples are primary meaning of Apostle to be one with jesus or saw resurrected Christ, had inspiration bestowed unto them by God, NONE as such today, but those with authority to govern/direct groups of Churches would be current version..

same way NO prophets that can write/speak revealtions from lord, but one gifted by God today can and does give insight from scriptures, brings out their prophetic meaning, like say a chuck Colsen addresses society by them!

That is not the gift of prophecy!!!
You can't change the meaning of the gift to suit your ill-fated theology.

remember, there ARE some indeed hold to NO second act of grace, no "baptism in HS" no tongues as required to show saved, that Bible is cloed canon from God today...

Show me any Biblical gift of tongues (foreign languages) being practiced on a regular basis today--not gibberish, but actual languages.

Just saying to you MANY hold to that, 2 being myself and DR wayne Grudem!

Are you as mixed up as Grudem is, or more?

And I DO still see you as being my brother in Christ, despite our differences in both Sotierology and in question about Gifts!
As these issues are important, BUT not essential to divide us , as jesus has made us both one in His Body!

I appreciate that.

 

[JesusFan]

you could say that, or at least close to that.
It grieves me to hear someone say: "i believe i can do this, but in reality i can't." it is the height of hypocrisy and arrogance, wouldn't you agree?
If you (or anyone else) can speak in foreign languages, heal multitudes of peoples of any kind of disease or infirmities (broken bones, blindness, ms, als, cerebral palsy, epilepsy, alzheimers, various cancers (the ones in the hospital that people are dying from) palliative care patients, etc. If you have these gifts then don't be a hypocrite but practice them so people can be healed, so missionaries don't have to learn foreign languages. See the hypocrisy in claiming they are operational when they are not. There is no evidence of these gifts being operational.

thing is per your definition, only jesus had that gift, as even paul "lost" it when he told timothy to take wine for stomach, and had his throne in the flesh!
Think paul shows us that even one gifted to heal by god would be just the channel god poured his heasling grace through to heal, and it is dependent upon god to heal the person, if it is his will and pleasure!

There is no revelation in the gift of healing, but no one practicing it. It has ceased.

that is not the gift of prophecy!!!
you can't change the meaning of the gift to suit your ill-fated theology.

not my definition, as many hold prophesy to be god enabling by grace one to speak the very "oracles" of god with boldness/conviction/and clarity!

show me any biblical gift of tongues (foreign languages) being practiced on a regular basis today--not gibberish, but actual languages

.

Are you sure that there cannot be such a gift to missionaries today than, to confirm message of jesus to a pagen culture?

Are you as mixed up as grudem is, or more?

Is he mixed up? Thought that his systematic theology is well regarded in evangelical circles, by baptists, many college use it as their main text book?

I appreciate that.

Been edited, please respond!

 

[DHK]

JF,
I won't respond to your post until you learn to use the quote function properly.

 

[JesusFan]

[QUOTE][quote="DHK, post: 1645309"]JF,
I won't respond to your post until you learn to use the quote function properly.[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

re edited prior post, please reply!

 

[DHK]

re edited prior post, please reply!

On the bottom right, beside "edit" there is a "quote" button. Use it.
After the first paragraph that you want to answer put this [bracket, then, a backslash / and then the word "quote" and then the other bracket] [/quote][/quote]
Like the above. Then take another paragraph that you are reading but first put the word "quote" in front of it with the bracket on both sides, this time without the backslash, like this

Then repeat with the backslash after the paragraph you are about to answer

Understand?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Neither do I.
This conversation is over. You are arguing for argument's sake. That is being contentious.

Hey DHK, Im your huckleberry or have you forgotten our previous conversations? I probably am the only one who believes in the continuance of gifts on this board. All Ive heard on here is misconceptions, not debate & discussion so I agree with you that this conversation is over.

 

[freeatlast]

Hey DHK, Im your huckleberry or have you forgotten our previous conversations? I probably am the only one who believes in the continuance of gifts on this board. All Ive heard on here is misconceptions, not debate & discussion so I agree with you that this conversation is over.

What empirical evidence do you have to support your belief?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

What empirical evidence do you have to support your belief?

go back into my old posts & read them. Its not worth my going over again & Im not going to get in an argument about it, OK.

 

[DHK]

Good question: When I look at George Whitefields testimony, he conceded that the Spirit did not visit every person or at all times and in the same degree. He believed though that everyone should labor to attain, yet it was not of absolute necessity to the being of a Christian (those are his own words)

That is what Whitefield taught regularly in his ministry. In other words, you can be a Christian without any additional blessings from the HS, but you should seek it and labor to attain it.

Now from my own personal prospective, the HS is the author of the Scriptures.... so I tend to focus in on that ...but I am now thinkin that I need to be praying for attaining more..... a visitation perhaps.

I believe what Whitfield was speaking of was more the "filling of the Holy Spirit" which sadly every Christian should have but neglects. If we were all filled with Holy Spirit as Paul commands us to be what a powerhouse Christianity would be. If you read some of the biographies of the missionaries and evangelists who prayed and sought God until God filled with them with his power you will understand what I mean. Most preachers don't "have time" for such prayer.

They didn't seek power for the gift of healing or speaking in a foreign language, and neither did Whitfield. He sought the power of God on his life for preaching the Word, and saw many saved as a result of it.