Do You regard Doctrine of Gifts Continuing/Ceasing as being "essential?"

[DHK]

You are correct!

is the doctrine of Gifts ceasing/continuing to beseen as essential doctrine MUST agree on like Second Coming.Virgin birth etc, or else seconday disputable areas!

In just your above list there are some on here that don't regard the second coming as that important a doctrine, as they believe he already came. All doctrine is essential.

You are taking a Roman Catholic view of Scripture.
Sin is sin in God's sight. No sin is greater than any other sin. All sin is a transgression of God's law (1John 3:4)
What might be that smallest transgression in your sight, that little white lie--if it could possibly be the only sin you ever committed--that sin would be enough to send you to hell. That sin alone would require Christ to come and give his life and atone for it. Sin is sin. There is no difference.

The RCC view: venial sin, mortal sin, different kinds of sin.

You are applying the same logic to the Bible.
Doctrine is doctrine. The Bible says: "Take heed to the doctrine."
All doctrine is essential and important. We don't slice it and dice it according to our theological paradigms as to what is important and what is not. God put it in the Bible, and therefore God considers it important. If it is important to God it should be important and essential enough for us to learn. God inspired all the Bible not just "essential" doctrines. All doctrine is essential.

 

[JesusFan]

In just your above list there are some on here that don't regard the second coming as that important a doctrine, as they believe he already came. All doctrine is essential.

I totally agree with you on that, its just though that not ALL is to be seen as 'core" doctrines, essentials of the faith that ALL Christians must agree on in same fashion!

I am talking about disputable doctrines, those that God allows for more than 1 intrepreation to be held regarding them!

Example

Essential/core/1 view only

Jesus was/is God manifasted in the Flesh

Disputable can hold differing views

jesus will come back again, but can be pre/post/mid maybe/maybe not a Rapture!

Does this help?

You are taking a Roman Catholic view of Scripture.
Sin is sin in God's sight. No sin is greater than any other sin. All sin is a transgression of God's law (1John 3:4)
What might be that smallest transgression in your sight, that little white lie--if it could possibly be the only sin you ever committed--that sin would be enough to send you to hell. That sin alone would require Christ to come and give his life and atone for it. Sin is sin. There is no difference.

The RCC view: venial sin, mortal sin, different kinds of sin.

You are applying the same logic to the Bible.
Doctrine is doctrine. The Bible says: "Take heed to the doctrine."

All doctrine is essential and important. We don't slice it and dice it according to our theological paradigms as to what is important and what is not. God put it in the Bible, and therefore God considers it important. If it is important to God it should be important and essential enough for us to learn. God inspired all the Bible not just "essential" doctrines. All doctrine is essential.

Yep, just that there ARe doctrines with sincere believers can and do have differing opinions on!

 

[DHK]

Yep, just that there ARe doctrines with sincere believers can and do have differing opinions on!

And this is a place we can do that. Having said that, when a person makes such a statement as below what does it do to create an atmosphere to healthy debate or conversation:

Some people who do not believe in spiritual gifts are just without knowledge of them, … their value, their importance, or how they operate. These folk would be civil in any discussions regarding the nature of gifts and miracles continuing.

However, others are belligerent toward anyone who believes in spiritual gifts continuing to operate in the Church. They argue that those who believe in miracles and supernatural gifts are stupid, crazy, deceived, liars, or that they are demonized.

"Take heed to the doctrine."
All scripture is given by inspiration of God.

 

[JesusFan]

And this is a place we can do that. Having said that, when a person makes such a statement as below what does it do to create an atmosphere to healthy debate or conversation:

Think bottom line on this is IF this doctrine area of discussion falls under areas christians can have differing views on, or IF one MUST hold to one view or other to be a Christian!



"

Take heed to the doctrine."
All scripture is given by inspiration of God.

Pity that not ALL scripture though is "easy" to interprete, as even peter said same thing about pauls letters!

 

[freeatlast]

You are correct!

is the doctrine of Gifts ceasing/continuing to beseen as essential doctrine MUST agree on like Second Coming.Virgin birth etc, or else seconday disputable areas!

There is no reason to be any disagreement. If the gifts are still working then show them if not then they have stopped. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[DHK]

Pity that not ALL scripture though is "easy" to interprete, as even peter said same thing about pauls letters!

And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. (2 Peter 3:15-16)

It ought to encourage us that Peter gave such a warning. It points us to certain truths:
1. That there will always be false teachers.
2. That we need to be constantly studying our Bibles to find out the true meaning of Scriptures.
3. If we have the sure meaning of Scriptures then we can confront those that are in error, that is, "they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction."

 

[Paco]

No one here that I know believes that. So you should be ok.
Welcome to the board.

Thanks for the welcome!

Now, I realize that I am paddling upstream, or swimming against the tide on this forum, but I do see these things in this thread from a different perspective from what the majority have expressed. If the Bible is to be accepted as truth, God’s miracles are for today and not just for a past generation. To deny that miracles, healings, and spiritual gifts are for today, … well, one has to disregard many passages of Scripture to make that claim.

Now, I certainly do not know everything, but there have been several misconceptions stated in some of the posts on this thread and I would like to address a couple of them if the discussion can be kept civil.

For instance, this idea that no one has gifts of healing today because there is no one who gets each and every person healed….. I am not trained in logic and the rules of debate, but it seems to me that this is a logical fallacy, a non sequitur. Whether or not every person is healed in a healing service is not conclusive evidence as to the legitimacy of a spiritual gift being in operation. Nor is it indicative that there are no spiritual gifts functioning today if all are not healed.

In actuality, Christ Himself did not always get every sick person healed. Though there were occasions in His ministry when we are told that “as many as touched [Him]” were healed, there were times when there were a multitude of sick folk present and Christ healed only one person. At the Pool of Bethesda, for example, only one was healed while “a great multitude of impotent folk, of blind, halt, withered” lay around the pool.

Then too, the disciples of Christ, who had been given authority to heal and cast out demons, failed to minister healing to a boy. When Christ arrived on the scene, He healed the boy, and then later spoke of their unbelief being the hindrance in getting the boy healed.

Also, it is obvious from the Scriptures that the faith or the unbelief of the people affected the results of Christ’s ministry. In one location, the Bible states that Christ did not perform many miracles because of unbelief, “And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief” (Matt 13:58). When He was chided because He healed on the Sabbath, Jesus answered saying that He only did what He saw His Father doing and that the healing was His Father at work, … that He could do nothing of Himself.

 

[DHK]

Thanks for the welcome!

Now, I realize that I am paddling upstream, or swimming against the tide on this forum, but I do see these things in this thread from a different perspective from what the majority have expressed. If the Bible is to be accepted as truth, God’s miracles are for today and not just for a past generation. To deny that miracles, healings, and spiritual gifts are for today, … well, one has to disregard many passages of Scripture to make that claim.

No one denies that God works miracles today. I believe that God works miracles, heals people, and does many, many great things. That is not the subject here. I believe that the gift of miracles, and the gift of healing, and other such sign gifts which were evident in the first century have ceased.

If the gift of tongues (speaking foreign languages) were for today, missionaries would not have to study the language of the country that they were called to. But they do. Where is the evidence of this gift being in operation today? There is none! A bunch of Charismatics speaking gibberish is not the gift of tongues.

Now, I certainly do not know everything, but there have been several misconceptions stated in some of the posts on this thread and I would like to address a couple of them if the discussion can be kept civil.

For instance, this idea that no one has gifts of healing today because there is no one who gets each and every person healed….. I am not trained in logic and the rules of debate, but it seems to me that this is a logical fallacy, a non sequitur. Whether or not every person is healed in a healing service is not conclusive evidence as to the legitimacy of a spiritual gift being in operation. Nor is it indicative that there are no spiritual gifts functioning today if all are not healed.

Most of us believe in healing. God heals through answer to prayer. He also chooses to heal through doctors, medicine, natural means, and sometimes not at all. But often when he heals it is through answer to prayer. What we do not see is the gift of healing such as was demonstrated by Peter in Acts 5:16 where all the sick from all the cities round about Jerusalem came to Peter, and "he healed them all (everyone of them)." Who does that today. Nobody has that gift today. That doesn't mean we don't believe that God doesn't heal today.

In actuality, Christ Himself did not always get every sick person healed. Though there were occasions in His ministry when we are told that “as many as touched [Him]” were healed, there were times when there were a multitude of sick folk present and Christ healed only one person. At the Pool of Bethesda, for example, only one was healed while “a great multitude of impotent folk, of blind, halt, withered” lay around the pool.

Christ only chose one person to be healed.

Then too, the disciples of Christ, who had been given authority to heal and cast out demons, failed to minister healing to a boy. When Christ arrived on the scene, He healed the boy, and then later spoke of their unbelief being the hindrance in getting the boy healed.

He was teaching his disciples a lesson of faith and fasting.

Also, it is obvious from the Scriptures that the faith or the unbelief of the people affected the results of Christ’s ministry.

This is not true of healing today. It is cruel ruse played by WOF, Third Wave, and other Charismatic faith healers today. To blame a sick person for not having enough faith is down right unbiblical and cruel. That is not what the Bible teaches. Listen to what James says:

Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. (James 5:14-15)
--The prayer of faith shall save or heal the sick. Which prayer? The prayer of faith! Who prays? The elders of the church, not the sick person. In other words if the faith healer or the pastor's faith is weak blame it on him, not the sick person. The faith healer who says that the sick person didn't have enough faith is playing a cruel joke. He is mean and cruel and not taking responsibility for his own actions.

In one location, the Bible states that Christ did not perform many miracles because of unbelief, “And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief” (Matt 13:58).

The key word is "miracles" not healings. They didn't believe he was God. He also said "Don't throw your pearls before swine." He wasn't going to waste his time there any longer when the fields were ripe unto harvest with many others that would believe.

When He was chided because He healed on the Sabbath, Jesus answered saying that He only did what He saw His Father doing and that the healing was His Father at work, … that He could do nothing of Himself.

While on his earth, He being God, the second person of the Godhead, submitted himself to the Father, the first person of the Godhead. They worked in unison. He was still God. He said "I and my Father are one." He demonstrated his deity while on earth. Many of the miracles Christ did cannot be duplicated on earth by any person, not even by the Apostles in the first century. They were miracles that only Christ could do.

 

[freeatlast]

Thanks for the welcome!

Now, I realize that I am paddling upstream, or swimming against the tide on this forum, but I do see these things in this thread from a different perspective from what the majority have expressed. If the Bible is to be accepted as truth, God’s miracles are for today and not just for a past generation. To deny that miracles, healings, and spiritual gifts are for today, … well, one has to disregard many passages of Scripture to make that claim.

Now, I certainly do not know everything, but there have been several misconceptions stated in some of the posts on this thread and I would like to address a couple of them if the discussion can be kept civil.

For instance, this idea that no one has gifts of healing today because there is no one who gets each and every person healed….. I am not trained in logic and the rules of debate, but it seems to me that this is a logical fallacy, a non sequitur. Whether or not every person is healed in a healing service is not conclusive evidence as to the legitimacy of a spiritual gift being in operation. Nor is it indicative that there are no spiritual gifts functioning today if all are not healed.

In actuality, Christ Himself did not always get every sick person healed. Though there were occasions in His ministry when we are told that “as many as touched [Him]” were healed, there were times when there were a multitude of sick folk present and Christ healed only one person. At the Pool of Bethesda, for example, only one was healed while “a great multitude of impotent folk, of blind, halt, withered” lay around the pool.

Then too, the disciples of Christ, who had been given authority to heal and cast out demons, failed to minister healing to a boy. When Christ arrived on the scene, He healed the boy, and then later spoke of their unbelief being the hindrance in getting the boy healed.

Also, it is obvious from the Scriptures that the faith or the unbelief of the people affected the results of Christ’s ministry. In one location, the Bible states that Christ did not perform many miracles because of unbelief, “And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief” (Matt 13:58). When He was chided because He healed on the Sabbath, Jesus answered saying that He only did what He saw His Father doing and that the healing was His Father at work, … that He could do nothing of Himself.

Hello Paco,
can you give the scripture reference where the Lord did not get someone healed? Also if the gifts are still for today can you give a reference of anyone healing a person on the spot that you have seen and know personally or can give some information to verify it as real. Also on miracles. Some proof that people are turning water into wine or walking on water, or multiplying food to feed multitudes.
[SIZE=+0][/SIZE]

 

[JesusFan]

No one denies that God works miracles today. I believe that God works miracles, heals people, and does many, many great things. That is not the subject here. I believe that the gift of miracles, and the gift of healing, and other such sign gifts which were evident in the first century have ceased.

If the gift of tongues (speaking foreign languages) were for today, missionaries would not have to study the language of the country that they were called to. But they do. Where is the evidence of this gift being in operation today? There is none! A bunch of Charismatics speaking gibberish is not the gift of tongues.

Most of us believe in healing. God heals through answer to prayer. He also chooses to heal through doctors, medicine, natural means, and sometimes not at all. But often when he heals it is through answer to prayer. What we do not see is the gift of healing such as was demonstrated by Peter in Acts 5:16 where all the sick from all the cities round about Jerusalem came to Peter, and "he healed them all (everyone of them)." Who does that today. Nobody has that gift today. That doesn't mean we don't believe that God doesn't heal today.

Christ only chose one person to be healed.

He was teaching his disciples a lesson of faith and fasting.

This is not true of healing today. It is cruel ruse played by WOF, Third Wave, and other Charismatic faith healers today. To blame a sick person for not having enough faith is down right unbiblical and cruel. That is not what the Bible teaches. Listen to what James says:

Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. (James 5:14-15)
--The prayer of faith shall save or heal the sick. Which prayer? The prayer of faith! Who prays? The elders of the church, not the sick person. In other words if the faith healer or the pastor's faith is weak blame it on him, not the sick person. The faith healer who says that the sick person didn't have enough faith is playing a cruel joke. He is mean and cruel and not taking responsibility for his own actions.

The key word is "miracles" not healings. They didn't believe he was God. He also said "Don't throw your pearls before swine." He wasn't going to waste his time there any longer when the fields were ripe unto harvest with many others that would believe.

While on his earth, He being God, the second person of the Godhead, submitted himself to the Father, the first person of the Godhead. They worked in unison. He was still God. He said "I and my Father are one." He demonstrated his deity while on earth. Many of the miracles Christ did cannot be duplicated on earth by any person, not even by the Apostles in the first century. They were miracles that only Christ could do.

I was in an Assemblies of God Church, was a teacher/deacon/elder there for almost 10 years before becoming a Baptist Christian, and never remembered meeting Any there who said that sign gifts were additional revelation from God for today, that Bible was not closed, and that there were modern Apostle/prophets in the NT sense of the term!

believed in miracles/healings, but as God willed them to happened!
Alsdo believed the Lord did at times use HS to guide/lead/prompt us, but that Bible ALWAYS was what tested it IF from God or not!

There were SOME who held up the hagins/Copelands etc as being 'godly men" of God, but Pastor let it be known that WoF and "funny stuff" like that would NOT be allowed in and tolerated!

Even had an IBF elder visit us, was a friend, and he remarked that the pastor message was "almost Baptist!"

What made me eventually depart wa that I NEVER believed in Tongues as "The " sign of breing Spirit Filled, nor in the :second act of grace/Baptism in the HG!"

 

[Paco]

Hello Paco,
can you give the scripture reference where the Lord did not get someone healed? Also if the gifts are still for today can you give a reference of anyone healing a person on the spot that you have seen and know personally or can give some information to verify it as real. Also on miracles. Some proof that people are turning water into wine or walking on water, or multiplying food to feed multitudes.
[SIZE=+0][/SIZE]

Nope.

I don't have to prove anything to you or anyone else. That is not my job, my responsibility.

Trying to convince a skeptic of something they have chosen to disbelieve is an exercise in futility. A person who has their mind made up to disbelieve in miracles won't accept them as real even when one slaps him in the face.

I will give you chapter and verse to support my positions.

If a person rejects what the Scripture states about these things, they would never believe any testimony of healing or miracles.

I gave one passage, Mat 13:58 in my previous post, showing that the unbelief of the people limited the miracle-working ministry of Christ.

Another is Mark 6:5-6 5 And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them. 6 And he marvelled because of their unbelief. And he went round about the villages, teaching.

 

[Paco]

No one denies that God works miracles today. I believe that God works miracles, heals people, and does many, many great things. That is not the subject here. I believe that the gift of miracles, and the gift of healing, and other such sign gifts which were evident in the first century have ceased.

Paco
Cessationism or Continualism relates to all miracles, healings, and mighty works, not just spiritual gifts. You may not personally deny that God works miracles today, but that is the basic premise of the doctrine of cessationism.
Therefore, I say that it is the subject here. I believe in the operation of spiritual gifts AND that God answers prayer with "great and mighty things" that simply would not happen without the faith and prayers of God's people.

If the gift of tongues (speaking foreign languages) were for today, missionaries would not have to study the language of the country that they were called to. But they do. Where is the evidence of this gift being in operation today? There is none! A bunch of Charismatics speaking gibberish is not the gift of tongues.

Paco
Another misconception. Speaking in tongues in the New testament is not a "preaching gift." It is a devotional gift. There is no record in the Bible of anyone "preaching" in tongues." On the Day of Pentecost, the 120 speaking in tongues were not "preaching the gospel," rather, they were praising God. Peter stood and preached the gospel in a known language, probably Aramaic or Hebrew, possibly Greek. Since he was preaching to Jews, the language he preached in was most likely Aramaic.

Paul did not preach or teach in tongues, yet he gave thanks to God for the ability to speak in tongues. 1 Cor 14:18-19 18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all: 19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue. Paul obviously considered speaking in tongues to be of great value or else he would not have practiced it so much. However, he did not normally use tongues in church becaue prophecy was the preferred gift for church services, ... it was in a language all could understand, whereas tongues was not known or understood without the companion gift of interpretation of tongues, another "spiritual" gift - note a spiritual gift and NOT a natural ability.

Speaking in tongues is NOT speaking in foreign languages. Foreign languages are learned by diligent study. Speaking in tongues is not something learned. It is spoken as the Spirit of God gives utterance.

Most of us believe in healing. God heals through answer to prayer. He also chooses to heal through doctors, medicine, natural means, and sometimes not at all. But often when he heals it is through answer to prayer. What we do not see is the gift of healing such as was demonstrated by Peter in Acts 5:16 where all the sick from all the cities round about Jerusalem came to Peter, and "he healed them all (everyone of them)." Who does that today. Nobody has that gift today. That doesn't mean we don't believe that God doesn't heal today.

Paco
You restate here the misconception I addressed earlier. You draw a conclusion that is not supoorted by the Scripture you reference. Saying that nobody gets everyone healed today does not establish that there is no manifestation of healing gifts today. This is the non sequitur.

Christ only chose one person to be healed.

He was teaching his disciples a lesson of faith and fasting.

Christ did His miracles by and through the anointing of the Holy Spirit. He was anointed with the Holy Spirit and power. He ministered unto the sick by the power of the Holy Spirit. He cast out demons by the Spirit of God. Christ did not heal everyone here in John 5. There were many sick, maimed, and halt people in His presence at the Pool of Bethesda that did not get healed. Your conclusion about the gift of healing always getting every one healed is in error.

This is not true of healing today. It is cruel ruse played by WOF, Third Wave, and other Charismatic faith healers today. To blame a sick person for not having enough faith is down right unbiblical and cruel. That is not what the Bible teaches. Listen to what James says:

Who is "blaming" anyone???? I am giving you chapter and verse that states unequivocally that the unbelief of people hindered the miracle and healing ministry of Christ. Do you think his followers can do more than He? If unbelief affected what He could do in ministry unto others, He who had the Spirit upon Him without measure, of course we would be limited in what we can do as well.

Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. (James 5:14-15)
--The prayer of faith shall save or heal the sick. Which prayer? The prayer of faith! Who prays? The elders of the church, not the sick person. In other words if the faith healer or the pastor's faith is weak blame it on him, not the sick person. The faith healer who says that the sick person didn't have enough faith is playing a cruel joke. He is mean and cruel and not taking responsibility for his own actions.

The key word is "miracles" not healings. They didn't believe he was God. He also said "Don't throw your pearls before swine." He wasn't going to waste his time there any longer when the fields were ripe unto harvest with many others that would believe.

While on his earth, He being God, the second person of the Godhead, submitted himself to the Father, the first person of the Godhead. They worked in unison. He was still God. He said "I and my Father are one." He demonstrated his deity while on earth. Many of the miracles Christ did cannot be duplicated on earth by any person, not even by the Apostles in the first century. They were miracles that only Christ could do.

Please show me the miracles that only Christ could do, those that could not be duplicated by any person. (That which happened after He was raised from the dead with a golrified body doesn't count.) Did He tell a lie when He stated that those who believed on Him would do the SAME WORKS that He did???? If Christ ONLY did miracles to prove His deity, then what did it prove when Peter, James, John, and many others did the same miracles that Christ performed?

 

[DHK]

Please show me the miracles that only Christ could do, those that could not be duplicated by any person. (That which happened after He was raised from the dead with a golrified body doesn't count.) Did He tell a lie when He stated that those who believed on Him would do the SAME WORKS that He did???? If Christ ONLY did miracles to prove His deity, then what did it prove when Peter, James, John, and many others did the same miracles that Christ performed?

1.Only Christ could walk on water, and allow Peter to do the same. He displayed his power over the natural laws of gravity.
2. Only Christ could calm the sea. No other person could have power over the elements of nature.
3. Only Christ could multiply a few loaves of bread and a couple fish into enough food to feed 5,000 men (about 20,000 people including women and children).
4. Aside from Christ's own resurrection, his greatest miracle was the resurrection of Lazarus, who had been dead already (four days in the grave). No other person could do that. He demonstrated his power over death and the dead. (This is unlike the ones that were dead for just a few hours in the Book of Acts whom the Apostles brought back to life. It is if they were resuscitated. Lazarus had died, was wrapped in burial clothes, was buried in a tomb, and his body had started to decompose. It had been four days. Martha said to Him, "Lord by this time he stinketh," indicating a state of decomposition. This indeed was a great miracle.
5. No one could turn water into wine--the creation of another substance.
These are five of the greatest that he did. There are some others as well.
These ones point to his deity. He did them to demonstrate that he was God.

Paco, quote word for word the verse that tells us we will do "the same works" that he will do.
You are not using Scripture properly!!

 

[DHK]

Nope.

I don't have to prove anything to you or anyone else. That is not my job, my responsibility.

If I make the claim that the moon is made of green cheese wouldn't it be my job, my responsibility to prove the statement that I make. I must back up the claims that I make, or don't make them at all.

Trying to convince a skeptic of something they have chosen to disbelieve is an exercise in futility. A person who has their mind made up to disbelieve in miracles won't accept them as real even when one slaps him in the face.

Perhaps he is not the skeptic, but skeptical of the way that you use the Bible.

Look at what Peter said of those who could not understand Paul's epistles:

And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. (2 Peter 3:15-16)
--It is a serious thing to distort God's Word.

I will give you chapter and verse to support my positions.

If a person rejects what the Scripture states about these things, they would never believe any testimony of healing or miracles.

I gave one passage, Mat 13:58 in my previous post, showing that the unbelief of the people limited the miracle-working ministry of Christ.

That says nothing about unbelief about "the miracle-working ministry of Christ. You are not properly interpreting Scripture. The unbelief in Capernaum was unbelief in the deity of Christ. They refused Christ just as people refuse Christ as their savior today.

Another is Mark 6:5-6 5 And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them. 6 And he marvelled because of their unbelief. And he went round about the villages, teaching.

--The healings did nothing, right? They didn't believe! They didn't believe what? They didn't believe the deity of Christ, that he was the Messiah, the Son of God, the Savior of the world. They rejected him. Miracles had nothing to do with this, just as it has nothing to do with it today.

May I give you some advice from Jesus:

38 Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.

39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:

40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. (Matthew 12:38-40)

 

[freeatlast]

Nope.

I don't have to prove anything to you or anyone else. That is not my job, my responsibility.

Trying to convince a skeptic of something they have chosen to disbelieve is an exercise in futility. A person who has their mind made up to disbelieve in miracles won't accept them as real even when one slaps him in the face.

I will give you chapter and verse to support my positions.

If a person rejects what the Scripture states about these things, they would never believe any testimony of healing or miracles.

I gave one passage, Mat 13:58 in my previous post, showing that the unbelief of the people limited the miracle-working ministry of Christ.

Another is Mark 6:5-6 5 And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them. 6 And he marvelled because of their unbelief. And he went round about the villages, teaching.

Paco no one is denying miracles or that God heals. Just the gift of miracles in people for today. The same with healings. No one today has any of the sign gifts. There are no sign gifted people today. If there was we would know them and see the results of their ministry but thye are just not there. God can and does on occasions heal someone or perhaps does a miracle, but they are VERY rare. Those gifts have stopped and will not be seen again in an individual until the two prophets come and they will have have them at least some of them.


Now about the Lord not being able to heal. It is not that He tried to heal and was powerless. That is not what the scripture EVER says. You are miss-understanding it. When the Lord raised the woman’s dead son in the middle of the funeral there was not faith from the dead man or the people around. No one had asked or even knew what He was going to do. He just did it. The power of Jesus was never limited because of weak or even no faith of those around. The reason that the Lord's ministry was limited in His home town was that they did not come to Him. They ignored Him. They did not believe He was anything other then a home boy so they never came and listened or asked. Because of them not having any faith at all they stayed away and thus He could very few mighty deeds there. He did some but very few.

 

[Paco]

Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. (James 5:14-15)

Oh, ... that is a wonderful Scripture that speaks of God's will and power to heal the sick. I am so glad to hear that you believe that passage and are willing to share it in this thread. I am glad to know that you practice it in your church.

Most Cessationists try to put the religious spin on this passage and claim that it is not for Christians today, that it was just for the Jews, etc. Somehow they miss the word church in verse 24.

Sadly, only a few Baptist churches today believe this Scripture. Only a few obey this passage and anoint the sick with oil as they lay hands on them and pray over them.

Did you notice the significance of faith in this passage? It is the prayer of faith that saves [heals] the sick, not just any ol' prayer, or an unbelieving prayer.

The prayer of faith has not lost its effectiveness, faith has not passed away. God is still the God who responds to the prayer of faith with healing power. Christ said to the woman with the hemmorage, "Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole." He is still raising the sick up in answer to the prayer of faith. Amen.

Amen. This is a very significant passage of Scripture for believers today. Thanks for quoting it.

 

[DHK]

Oh, ... that is a wonderful Scripture that speaks of God's will and power to heal the sick. I am so glad to hear that you believe that passage and are willing to share it in this thread. I am glad to know that you practice it in your church.

Most Cessationists try to put the religious spin on this passage and claim that it is not for Christians today, that it was just for the Jews, etc. Somehow they miss the word church in verse 24.

Sadly, only a few Baptist churches today believe this Scripture. Only a few obey this passage and anoint the sick with oil as they lay hands on them and pray over them.

Did you notice the significance of faith in this passage? It is the prayer of faith that saves [heals] the sick, not just any ol' prayer, or an unbelieving prayer.

The prayer of faith has not lost its effectiveness, faith has not passed away. God is still the God who responds to the prayer of faith with healing power. Christ said to the woman with the hemmorage, "Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole." He is still raising the sick up in answer to the prayer of faith. Amen.

Amen. This is a very significant passage of Scripture for believers today. Thanks for quoting it.

James wrote what is the pattern for today in our own local churches. We need to follow it.
Jesus had a different ministry. We are not Jesus. We cannot heal as Jesus healed. We need to stick to the instructions that James gave for the local church.

Also keep in mind these things:
1. Paul had an infirmity that he prayed for three times in 2Cor.12. Three times the Lord denied him, but said, "My grace is sufficient for you." God does not always give healing.

2. Timothy had stomach problems, and Paul could not heal him. "Take a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thy oft infirmities."

3. Paul could not heal Trophimus. "Trophimus have I left sick at Miletus."

4. Paul could not heal Epraphraditus.
For indeed he was sick nigh unto death: but God had mercy on him; and not on him only, but on me also, lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow. (Philippians 2:27)
Because for the work of Christ he was nigh unto death, not regarding his life, to supply your lack of service toward me. (Philippians 2:30)
--It was not Paul; it was simply the Lord having mercy on him.

The Lord heals according to his will. Sometimes he heals and sometimes he doesn't. It is entirely up to his sovereign will. He doe not heal all the time, even when we follow the instructions given in James five.

 

[JesusFan]

James wrote what is the pattern for today in our own local churches. We need to follow it.
Jesus had a different ministry. We are not Jesus. We cannot heal as Jesus healed. We need to stick to the instructions that James gave for the local church.

Also keep in mind these things:
1. Paul had an infirmity that he prayed for three times in 2Cor.12. Three times the Lord denied him, but said, "My grace is sufficient for you." God does not always give healing.

2. Timothy had stomach problems, and Paul could not heal him. "Take a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thy oft infirmities."

3. Paul could not heal Trophimus. "Trophimus have I left sick at Miletus."

4. Paul could not heal Epraphraditus.
For indeed he was sick nigh unto death: but God had mercy on him; and not on him only, but on me also, lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow. (Philippians 2:27)
Because for the work of Christ he was nigh unto death, not regarding his life, to supply your lack of service toward me. (Philippians 2:30)
--It was not Paul; it was simply the Lord having mercy on him.

The Lord heals according to his will. Sometimes he heals and sometimes he doesn't. It is entirely up to his sovereign will. He doe not heal all the time, even when we follow the instructions given in James five.[/QUOTE

]


totally agree!

Also, think that passage in james was use of some type of "healing balm" medical oitment prescribed to be used, and also that there also appears some type of "spiritual component" being addressed, as James addressed both a physical and a spiritual "healing" here!

 

[TCGreek]

You are correct!

is the doctrine of Gifts ceasing/continuing to beseen as essential doctrine MUST agree on like Second Coming.Virgin birth etc, or else seconday disputable areas!

Not at all! Scripture does not present the matter thus.

 

[JesusFan]

Not at all! Scripture does not present the matter thus.

So 2 christians on opposite side on this issue STILL will fellowship, as we have same Lord and same HD indwelling both of us than?