Regarding those who have never heard...

VERY good points made here. You and I are very close I believe.

 

By "save" I mean the kind that Paul and Silas promised the Philippian jailer when Paul told him, "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved."

That kind of saved.

I understand what you're trying to say when you differentiate between head knowledge and heart knowledge. I understand that trusting Christ involves more than just intellectual assent. But it still raises some questions.

One, your view seems to eliminate any intellectual activity at all, any kind of mental assent to truth. So that leaves me trying to figure out just how the heart knows something. Yes, I know what the scripture says about the law being written on our hearts. How does that happen? Does someone one day realize, "hey, I know something that I didn't know before. Where did that come from? What just happened here?"

To me, it's not sufficient to say "Well, I know it in my heart." God gave us a brain as well as a heart (by heart I mean the seat of the emotions).

In fact, Paul himself (In Romans 12:1-2) instructed us to be transformed by the renewing of our minds.

And yes, confessing Christ as Lord and believing in our hearts that he rose from the dead is certainly not disconnected from our emotions. Neither is it disconnected from our intellect.

And yes, I agree that the Holy Spirit operates sovereignly as he wills. I certainly agree that he changes hearts, as he will. I do agree that the work of the Holy Spirit is what convinces us of our sinfulness and makes us willing and desirous to put our trust in the Lord Jesus for salvation.

And finally, I remain convinced that while the Spirit operates sovereignly, he does not regenerate and save independently of the gospel.

 

And here's one more scripture passage:
Mark 12:30

 

I did not slander you. You need to look up the meaning of the word. I may possibly have misrepresented your belief, and if I did so I will honestly apologize.

But here once more you misrepresent my belief when you say (again after I clearly denied it before):

I absolutely did not say this nor do I believe it. I categorically deny saying this and believing it. I have always and will always believe in the omnipotence of God. Will you admit that? If so, we can get on with our subject.

If appropriate, I will apologize for misrepresenting your views (and I hope you will see fit to apologize for misrepresenting mine) after you answer the following question.

When God gives the Gospel to someone who has not heard a human do so, what does God say? In other words, what is the Gospel of God?

 

So now you have answered my question. You do believe that God gives "spiritual revelation" to all men, and that is the meaning of John 1:9 according to you. Please tell me, what is the content of that spiritual revelation? What does God tell them to get them saved?

Again, please tell me what the content of that spiritual revelation is.

So, you are accusing me of not believing the precious Word of God which I have been called to preach, which I have preached in hundreds of places, which I would die for the privilege of preaching anywhere and anytime, is that correct?

I deny the charge, and I say you are bearing false witness against me. I believe this passage with all of my heart, and believe furthermore that you are misinterpreting it.

Just to be sure you are straight on what I want to know, what is the content of the revelation God gives to those who have never heard the Gospel from a human source? How does that work? I really hope you will answer this, and then we can continue our discussion in a logical way instead of going round and round.

 

All of this is very well put, Sissy Amy!! That which I bolded I especially like!!

This back at ya!! :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:


YOU OUT THERE BROTHER QUANT???????? We are stealing your catchphrases!!!

 

I cannot believe this debate has gone on this long without anyone referring to Romans 1:18-20! (If they have, I apologize for missing it).

What you have there is God explaining to us why every person needs to hear and trust in Christ, because although they can know some things about God from creation, EVERY person rejects this and does not worship God.

Romans 10 then gives the famous "how can they believe in whom they have never heard" argument.

God can save any person anywhere, but he will do it by them either hearing or reading his words, whether that is a missionary, a christian radio broadcast, a bible that accidently gets dropped in the jungle...

The idea that there are millions of unreached people seeking God denies Romans 3:10 - "there is none that seeks God."
It is based on the popular, but mistaken, idea of the "noble pagan." (Think of movies like Avatar, Pocahantas, ..etc). We want to believe that people will naturally do good unless influenced to do otherwise by culture or peers, but that simply isn't the Biblical view of Man.

We are all fallen and sinful from birth (conception actually), and do not naturally seek God.

So...we need to evangelize the world because millions are dying and facing eternity without Christ...Not because of bad luck, but because of their own sin in rejecting their creator.

Blessings all,
-Andy

 

Okay. So I went back and checked, and TWICE I asked specifically if you believed anyone could be saved without the Gospel. Twice you refused to deny it.

Here is what I said in post 36:

Here is your answer in post 37:

You refused to deny that you believe people can be saved without the Gospel. What was I supposed to believe?

Here is what I said in post 47:

You once again refused to deny it. What was I supposed to believe?

Now can we forget this silliness about you being slandered and continue the discussion? I would like you to reply to:

(1) My analysis of the Greek of John 1:9 if you can.

(2) What you believe God reveals to someone to save them without a human witness.

I'll be waiting to continue our debate.

 

Hi, Andy. Welcome to the BB. :wavey: If your handle is about the 12 string guitar, love that sound!

I mentioned Romans 1 briefly in post 24, and then gave a outline of it in post 54. But you are absolutely right about 1:18-20 being a key passage in this discussion. I appreciate your post.:thumbs:

 

I have made this point before, so here goes again.

I do not believe that every person without exception has heard enough gospel to be saved. I believe that there are people alive today who have never heard the gospel.

That being the case, what is the basis for their condemnation? It cannot be for rejecting Christ, of whom they have never heard.

Romans 2:14-15 provides what I believe is the answer.

Those who have never heard the gospel have the law written on their hearts. They have a conscience, based on their concept of right and wrong.

They have their own moral code, so to speak. And, like all of us, we cannot keep the law perfectly. When they violate that moral code, they do it willingly, and thus will have no excuse.

They will admit that their condemnation is just.

 

As I was reading this thread, the thought of that wonderful book, written by Dr. Bill Rice came to mind. I have purchased several copies of "Cowboy Boots in Darkest Africa." I have been fortunate enough to give a couple of these copies away.

This book shows how if someone is responding to the light they have, God will send them more light.

 

That's one of my favorite missionary biographies of all time. :thumbs:

 

But make sure you disrespect the office of missionary, right Alive in Christ? Make sure you falsely accuse him (twice, while complaining of his so-called slander) of not believing in an omnipotent God simply because he believes people are going to Hell without his witness.

Here is what I should say if I believed your false doctrine: "Sorry Dad and Mom, loved ones, friends. I left you, took your daughter and grandchild away to Japan when apparently I didn't need to. Japanese can get saved without me just as easily according to Alive in Christ. I left a good job, gave up property, sacrificed my all for the cause of Christ for nothing."

AiC, you are dishonoring my office, the office of missionary, with this false doctrine that somehow God will save Japanese without believers giving the Gospel. "I magnify my office"--The apostle Paul.

 

What does 'that kind of saved' mean? You still haven't answered the question.

And I understand that it's your attachment to the 'notion' that it requires the gospel to impart life and immortality that blinds you to the truth of immediate regeneration. Even your Southern Baptist forefathers had a grasp on this truth, but somewhere along the way it was lost amongst the SBs. This 'notion' has consistently blinded you to the truth of Ro 2:13-15, where in times past Gentiles who had not the law were directly regenerated [Jn 3:8], and had the law written in their hearts. “More are the children of the desolate than of her that hath the husband” [Isa 54:1; Gal 4:27] , another glorious truth that your presupposition of gospel means regeneration blinds you to.

No, it's the imaginations (thoughts) that arise from the heart [Mt 5:6, 22, 28; Ro 2:15] that God has always taken into account. Profession brings one into the kingdom, but as plainly put forth in Jn 3, BEFORE one can even see or enter into the kingdom (read SAVED), one must FIRST be born from above. The Spirit works independently of the gospel. Christ is the only mediator between God and man; there is no flesh and blood 'soul winner' inserted between the two that carries the means of eternal life to the unregenerate.

It's your presupposition of the 'notion' of gospel means regeneration that does this to you.

Jn 3:8.

And thus the awful doctrine of hardline restrictivism.

 

More Thoughts from Romans (arguing that one can NOT be saved apart from hearing or reading the Gospel):

1. The Romans 2 argument that the Gentiles were regenerated by their following the law in their hearts takes Paul's statement farther than Paul does. He does say that they are "a law unto themselves." but does not explicitly say what this means in regard to their salvation...so we have to look elsewhere. And elsewhere, Paul repeatedly says that no one is justified by their works...
...an unbeliever who has not heard the gospel cannot be justified by following their inner conscience any more than someone who has heard the gospel.
Why? Because "For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, 10 as it is written: 'None is righteous, no, not one; 11 no one understands; no one seeks for God. 12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.'"
(Rom. 3:9-11)

2. Romans 10:1-3 is a shocking passage that makes this very clear:
10 Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness.

a. Paul says that his Fellow Jews have a zeal (passion) for God, but that it does not accord with knowledge...So he is praying for their salvation. They have a passion for God and they AREN'T SAVED! And it is because their passion for God is misplaced, causing them to rely on their own righteousness to reach God, Rather than rely on the Righteousness God wants to give them through Christ.

b. These Jews were IGNORANT (the didn't have knowledge...they had never heard) of the righteousness of God, so they were working very hard (think Pharisees) to try to establish their own righteousness instead of submitting to the fact that they can't do it, and need God's perfect righteousness that comes through belief in Christ.