Regarding those who have never heard...

[kyredneck]

Good posts, many of them, but to my old eyes it appears some of ya'll aren't listening to each other.

There are so many ways God could deal with both justice and mercy with those that never hear, all based on Jesus Christ and redemption bought and paid for by Him.

God could elect some to salvation and make sure they hear. Case closed.

BUT He could elect all those IN Christ, and since He is all knowing make sure those who will believe get a chance to accept the gospel and believe.

We act like those are His only choices.

But from Genesis to at least Romans we see those "God fearers". We have God telling us those in any nation that do right and trust God will be saved.

So we ramble on trying to figure out how, when there are many possible mechanisms, none involving salvation outside of Christ.

No matter how blinded the mind is by paganism, when God encounters the heart that trusts Him and attempts to obey, however poorly, our sovereign God CAN speak to the pagan heart. Maybe at the point of death, just this side of it. Maybe when that poor sinner stands before God. It may be that God meant it when He said it will be according to what we have we are judged by, not by what we didn't have.

I realize all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. I realize all deserve hell.

But I see nothing from Genesis to Revelation, no matter what your theological system, that suggests the following scene:

Suzy pagan nation stands before God, guilty and condemned. "Oh," she cries out, "If only You would forgive me--I knew from the sky and mountains you were there and I wanted to know You and find forgiveness!"

God replies, "Yes, I know. I told Jimmy from 1st Baptist in Decatur to go to the mission field and tell you. He didn't, so off to hell with you. I'll make sure he gets fewer rewards in heaven for disobeying Me."

Suzy cries out, "Wait, I deserve hell, I know, but He got to know You, he could have kept me out of hell but disobeyed a direct command, and the punishment for that falls on me? Maybe I really am in hell already!"

VERY good points made here. You and I are very close I believe.

 

[Alive in Christ]

John of Japan...

So then I take it that you disagree with Alive in Christ about people being saved without the Gospel, correct?

A new low. You are now resorting to slander.

The gospel is the only way that anyone can be saved, and I have never said otherwise.

But unfotunetly millions or people have died, or will die, without ever hearing the gospel.

Your..(and others on here).. attitude apears to be...

Tough luck for them! Hell is their doom. Glad I'm not them!

I see in the scriptures a God who wants to save all...(not that all WILL be saved, because many will reject)... and because of that, there is scriptural evidence that He truly DOES get the gosple to ALL, so that ALL have opportunity to hear and possibly be saved.

You and others have Almighty God in a little box, of your making.

"God, you can do this, and and that, and this over hear...but you cant do *this*..OR *THAT*. You cant do those because we say so."

You are saying that Almigty God CAN NOT preach HIS OWN GOSPLE to a
person!!!

May God have mercy.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Nodak....

Originally Posted by nodak
Good posts, many of them, but to my old eyes it appears some of ya'll aren't listening to each other.

There are so many ways God could deal with both justice and mercy with those that never hear, all based on Jesus Christ and redemption bought and paid for by Him.

God could elect some to salvation and make sure they hear. Case closed.

BUT He could elect all those IN Christ, and since He is all knowing make sure those who will believe get a chance to accept the gospel and believe.

We act like those are His only choices.

But from Genesis to at least Romans we see those "God fearers". We have God telling us those in any nation that do right and trust God will be saved.

So we ramble on trying to figure out how, when there are many possible mechanisms, none involving salvation outside of Christ.

No matter how blinded the mind is by paganism, when God encounters the heart that trusts Him and attempts to obey, however poorly, our sovereign God CAN speak to the pagan heart. Maybe at the point of death, just this side of it. Maybe when that poor sinner stands before God. It may be that God meant it when He said it will be according to what we have we are judged by, not by what we didn't have.

I realize all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. I realize all deserve hell.

But I see nothing from Genesis to Revelation, no matter what your theological system, that suggests the following scene:

Suzy pagan nation stands before God, guilty and condemned. "Oh," she cries out, "If only You would forgive me--I knew from the sky and mountains you were there and I wanted to know You and find forgiveness!"

God replies, "Yes, I know. I told Jimmy from 1st Baptist in Decatur to go to the mission field and tell you. He didn't, so off to hell with you. I'll make sure he gets fewer rewards in heaven for disobeying Me."

Suzy cries out, "Wait, I deserve hell, I know, but He got to know You, he could have kept me out of hell but disobeyed a direct command, and the punishment for that falls on me? Maybe I really am in hell already!"

Excellant post! Very enlightening.

Thanks for posting that. :thumbs:

 

[Tom Butler]

I believe you should first explain what you mean by 'saves', and then support it with scripture.

But to answer your question: The Spirit blows where He wills. He changes hearts as He wills. It's not about head knowledge, it's about heart condition and the resulting good works that come from a heart that has had the law supernaturally written upon it.

By "save" I mean the kind that Paul and Silas promised the Philippian jailer when Paul told him, "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved."

That kind of saved.

I understand what you're trying to say when you differentiate between head knowledge and heart knowledge. I understand that trusting Christ involves more than just intellectual assent. But it still raises some questions.

One, your view seems to eliminate any intellectual activity at all, any kind of mental assent to truth. So that leaves me trying to figure out just how the heart knows something. Yes, I know what the scripture says about the law being written on our hearts. How does that happen? Does someone one day realize, "hey, I know something that I didn't know before. Where did that come from? What just happened here?"

To me, it's not sufficient to say "Well, I know it in my heart." God gave us a brain as well as a heart (by heart I mean the seat of the emotions).

In fact, Paul himself (In Romans 12:1-2) instructed us to be transformed by the renewing of our minds.

And yes, confessing Christ as Lord and believing in our hearts that he rose from the dead is certainly not disconnected from our emotions. Neither is it disconnected from our intellect.

And yes, I agree that the Holy Spirit operates sovereignly as he wills. I certainly agree that he changes hearts, as he will. I do agree that the work of the Holy Spirit is what convinces us of our sinfulness and makes us willing and desirous to put our trust in the Lord Jesus for salvation.

And finally, I remain convinced that while the Spirit operates sovereignly, he does not regenerate and save independently of the gospel.

 

[Tom Butler]

And here's one more scripture passage:
Mark 12:30

And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

 

[Alive in Christ]

John of Japan...

what I do not believe (and Alive in Christ does believe) is that anyone will actually come to salvation through general revelation.

And you have every right to disbelieve to your hearts content.

But as for me, I am going to heed the scriptures. The scriptures tell us that God says that He...

...gives Light (spiritual revelation) to every man (person) who comes into the world.

Now, I dont know about you, but I believe that if God goes to the trouble of giving "Light" to every human being who has ever been born into this world, He does not do that just to "show off".

I believe He does it because He has a very very very good reason for doing that. And that reason is that God is no respector of persons' as you seem to believe. He will get revelation to them, so that they can believe and be saved, or disbelieve and be lost...just like every one else.

The scripture says...

In truth I percieve that God shows no partiality, but in every nation,..(not some nations, not most nations,...ALL nations...) whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.

Now, I believe that. You dont. You believe that millions are sent to hell because...darn the luck...those missionaries are so..darn..slow.

I have too much confidence in the precious scriptures to believe such nonsense. I AM A SCRIPTURE GUY. Always have been. I dont just accept what comes down to party line, just because everyone else does.

I go...by...Gods...precious scriptures, I and I always will.

They can only come to a knowledge of God through general revelation (Ps. 19), not salvation.

Thats the party line. I am a scripture guy.

But if a lost person, apart from any knowledge of Christ, begins seeking God through general revelation, God will then give him further help through human means.

Sometimes.

But what about the MILLIONS and MILLIONS through the centuries who never met even one missionary. And what about those who still havent heard today?

Youre answer is, in essence.... Hell is thier doom. Too bad.

Fortunetly, the scriptures of God..as opposed to the traditions of men say...

Not neccesarilly. Almighty God can get light to them. He says so in His scriptures, and He does not lie.

...who gives Light to every person born into the world.

God does not play favorites

 

[John of Japan]

John of Japan...

A new low. You are now resorting to slander.

The gospel is the only way that anyone can be saved, and I have never said otherwise.

I did not slander you. You need to look up the meaning of the word. I may possibly have misrepresented your belief, and if I did so I will honestly apologize.

But here once more you misrepresent my belief when you say (again after I clearly denied it before):

"God, you can do this, and and that, and this over hear...but you cant do *this*..OR *THAT*. You cant do those because we say so."

You are saying that Almigty God CAN NOT preach HIS OWN GOSPLE to a person!!!

May God have mercy.

I absolutely did not say this nor do I believe it. I categorically deny saying this and believing it. I have always and will always believe in the omnipotence of God. Will you admit that? If so, we can get on with our subject.

If appropriate, I will apologize for misrepresenting your views (and I hope you will see fit to apologize for misrepresenting mine) after you answer the following question.

When God gives the Gospel to someone who has not heard a human do so, what does God say? In other words, what is the Gospel of God?

 

[John of Japan]

John of Japan...

But as for me, I am going to heed the scriptures. The scriptures tell us that God says that He..."gives Light (spiritual revelation) to every man (person) who comes into the world."

So now you have answered my question. You do believe that God gives "spiritual revelation" to all men, and that is the meaning of John 1:9 according to you. Please tell me, what is the content of that spiritual revelation? What does God tell them to get them saved?

I believe He does it because He has a very very very good reason for doing that. And that reason is that God is no respector of persons' as you seem to believe. He will get revelation to them, so that they can believe and be saved, or disbelieve and be lost...just like every one else.

Again, please tell me what the content of that spiritual revelation is.

The scripture says..."In truth I percieve that God shows no partiality, but in every nation,..(not some nations, not most nations,...ALL nations...) whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him."

Now, I believe that. You dont. You believe that millions are sent to hell because...darn the luck...those missionaries are so..darn..slow.

So, you are accusing me of not believing the precious Word of God which I have been called to preach, which I have preached in hundreds of places, which I would die for the privilege of preaching anywhere and anytime, is that correct?

I deny the charge, and I say you are bearing false witness against me. I believe this passage with all of my heart, and believe furthermore that you are misinterpreting it.

But what about the MILLIONS and MILLIONS through the centuries who never met even one missionary. And what about those who still havent heard today?

Youre answer is, in essence.... Hell is thier doom. Too bad.

Fortunetly, the scriptures of God..as opposed to the traditions of men say...

Just to be sure you are straight on what I want to know, what is the content of the revelation God gives to those who have never heard the Gospel from a human source? How does that work? I really hope you will answer this, and then we can continue our discussion in a logical way instead of going round and round.

 

[convicted1]

Matthew 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.


Jesus is speaking here of the light (knowledge) that God has given to the Jews regarding God's Son. If they received the knowledge, God would give them more. If they refused it, God would take away even that knowledge that they had and thus their hearts would be hardened.



Paul speaks of the same thing in Romans 1. (although he is speaking of Gentiles)

Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.


God gives knowledge of Himself to all people, but if they refuse it, their heart will harden against Him. But if they receive it, God will reveal Himself even more.

Even the man in the darkest jungle can seek his creator and if he is sincere, God will make a way for him to hear the gospel and be saved.

I have read many stories of missionaries who have gone to a remote people who were ready to receive the gospel because they had realized the Creator and had listened to the conscience in them telling them they had sinned and thus their hearts were prepared to hear the gospel.

Nothing is too difficult for our God. If a man wants to know Him, He will make Himself known. But to be saved apart from the gospel of Christ is not a biblical concept.

All of this is very well put, Sissy Amy!! That which I bolded I especially like!!

This back at ya!! :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:


YOU OUT THERE BROTHER QUANT???????? We are stealing your catchphrases!!!

 

[12strings]

I cannot believe this debate has gone on this long without anyone referring to Romans 1:18-20! (If they have, I apologize for missing it).

What you have there is God explaining to us why every person needs to hear and trust in Christ, because although they can know some things about God from creation, EVERY person rejects this and does not worship God.

Romans 10 then gives the famous "how can they believe in whom they have never heard" argument.

God can save any person anywhere, but he will do it by them either hearing or reading his words, whether that is a missionary, a christian radio broadcast, a bible that accidently gets dropped in the jungle...

The idea that there are millions of unreached people seeking God denies Romans 3:10 - "there is none that seeks God."
It is based on the popular, but mistaken, idea of the "noble pagan." (Think of movies like Avatar, Pocahantas, ..etc). We want to believe that people will naturally do good unless influenced to do otherwise by culture or peers, but that simply isn't the Biblical view of Man.

We are all fallen and sinful from birth (conception actually), and do not naturally seek God.

So...we need to evangelize the world because millions are dying and facing eternity without Christ...Not because of bad luck, but because of their own sin in rejecting their creator.

Blessings all,
-Andy

 

[John of Japan]

John of Japan...

A new low. You are now resorting to slander.

The gospel is the only way that anyone can be saved, and I have never said otherwise.

Okay. So I went back and checked, and TWICE I asked specifically if you believed anyone could be saved without the Gospel. Twice you refused to deny it.

Here is what I said in post 36:

JoJ: Correct me if I'm wrong, but you appear to believe that someone can be saved without the Gospel being proclaimed to them, on their own somehow. I don't believe that and never will.

Here is your answer in post 37:

AiC: Oh my goodness, no!! Not on their own.

The Triune God will be STRONGLY involved in any encounter of revelation regarding anyone being saved.

You refused to deny that you believe people can be saved without the Gospel. What was I supposed to believe?

Here is what I said in post 47:

So please be clear. In your view can a person be saved without hearing that Christ died in his place for his sins and rose again?

You once again refused to deny it. What was I supposed to believe?

Now can we forget this silliness about you being slandered and continue the discussion? I would like you to reply to:

(1) My analysis of the Greek of John 1:9 if you can.

(2) What you believe God reveals to someone to save them without a human witness.

I'll be waiting to continue our debate.

 

[John of Japan]

I cannot believe this debate has gone on this long without anyone referring to Romans 1:18-20! (If they have, I apologize for missing it).

Hi, Andy. Welcome to the BB. :wavey: If your handle is about the 12 string guitar, love that sound!

I mentioned Romans 1 briefly in post 24, and then gave a outline of it in post 54. But you are absolutely right about 1:18-20 being a key passage in this discussion. I appreciate your post.:thumbs:

 

[Tom Butler]

I have made this point before, so here goes again.

I do not believe that every person without exception has heard enough gospel to be saved. I believe that there are people alive today who have never heard the gospel.

That being the case, what is the basis for their condemnation? It cannot be for rejecting Christ, of whom they have never heard.

Romans 2:14-15 provides what I believe is the answer.

For when the Gentiles,who have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law,these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves. 15 Which show the work of the law written on their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another.

Those who have never heard the gospel have the law written on their hearts. They have a conscience, based on their concept of right and wrong.

They have their own moral code, so to speak. And, like all of us, we cannot keep the law perfectly. When they violate that moral code, they do it willingly, and thus will have no excuse.

They will admit that their condemnation is just.

 

[Robert Snow]

Well said, Amy! This is exactly what I've been trying (perhaps poorly) to say all along. I even gave the example of my mother's uncle going to Africa and preaching to a pygmy tribe, one of who was seeking God. This type of seeker is responding to general (also called natural) revelation, God's revelation through nature (including the heart of man).

There is also the wonderful book, Peace Child, by Don Richardson, telling of the custom of one people group of exchanging babies to make peace, then being able to understand about Christ God's Son. Another great book on this by Richardson is Eternity in their Hearts. I highly recommend both books.

Along with you, what I do not believe (and Alive in Christ does believe) is that anyone will actually come to salvation through general revelation. They can only come to a knowledge of God through general revelation (Ps. 19), not salvation. But if a lost person, apart from any knowledge of Christ, begins seeking God through general revelation, God will then give him further help through human means.

As I was reading this thread, the thought of that wonderful book, written by Dr. Bill Rice came to mind. I have purchased several copies of "Cowboy Boots in Darkest Africa." I have been fortunate enough to give a couple of these copies away.

This book shows how if someone is responding to the light they have, God will send them more light.

 

[Alive in Christ]

I have made this point before, so here goes again.

I do not believe that every person without exception has heard enough gospel to be saved. I believe that there are people alive today who have never heard the gospel.

That being the case, what is the basis for their condemnation? It cannot be for rejecting Christ, of whom they have never heard.

Romans 2:14-15 provides what I believe is the answer.



Those who have never heard the gospel have the law written on their hearts. They have a conscience, based on their concept of right and wrong.

They have their own moral code, so to speak. And, like all of us, we cannot keep the law perfectly. When they violate that moral code, they do it willingly, and thus will have no excuse.

They will admit that their condemnation is just.

I agree with this, *IF* they are condemned. They might very well NOT be condemned, depending on what they do with the Light they are given. As has been posted by others, the secret things belong to the Lord.

Praise the Lord!

 

[John of Japan]

As I was reading this thread, the thought of that wonderful book, written by Dr. Bill Rice came to mind. I have purchased several copies of "Cowboy Boots in Darkest Africa." I have been fortunate enough to give a couple of these copies away.

This book shows how if someone is responding to the light they have, God will send them more light.

That's one of my favorite missionary biographies of all time. :thumbs:

 

[Alive in Christ]

Originally Posted by Robert Snow
As I was reading this thread, the thought of that wonderful book, written by Dr. Bill Rice came to mind. I have purchased several copies of "Cowboy Boots in Darkest Africa." I have been fortunate enough to give a couple of these copies away.

This book shows how if someone is responding to the light they have, God will send them more light.

Many times that happens, and praise the Lord for it.

But many times these dear ones never get more light from a christian wittness. They die without ever hearing the Gosple in its fullness.

PRAISE GOD that they are not without hope! God knows thier hearts just as fully as He knows our hearts. God will give them Light, as He declares in His scriptures, where they testify that God...

...gives Light to every man who comes into the world.

What a great God we serve!

 

[John of Japan]

Many times that happens, and praise the Lord for it.

But make sure you disrespect the office of missionary, right Alive in Christ? Make sure you falsely accuse him (twice, while complaining of his so-called slander) of not believing in an omnipotent God simply because he believes people are going to Hell without his witness.

Here is what I should say if I believed your false doctrine: "Sorry Dad and Mom, loved ones, friends. I left you, took your daughter and grandchild away to Japan when apparently I didn't need to. Japanese can get saved without me just as easily according to Alive in Christ. I left a good job, gave up property, sacrificed my all for the cause of Christ for nothing."

AiC, you are dishonoring my office, the office of missionary, with this false doctrine that somehow God will save Japanese without believers giving the Gospel. "I magnify my office"--The apostle Paul.

 

[kyredneck]

By "save" I mean the kind that Paul and Silas promised the Philippian jailer when Paul told him, "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved."

That kind of saved.

What does 'that kind of saved' mean? You still haven't answered the question.

I understand what you're trying to say when you differentiate between head knowledge and heart knowledge. I understand that trusting Christ involves more than just intellectual assent. But it still raises some questions.

And I understand that it's your attachment to the 'notion' that it requires the gospel to impart life and immortality that blinds you to the truth of immediate regeneration. Even your Southern Baptist forefathers had a grasp on this truth, but somewhere along the way it was lost amongst the SBs. This 'notion' has consistently blinded you to the truth of Ro 2:13-15, where in times past Gentiles who had not the law were directly regenerated [Jn 3:8], and had the law written in their hearts. “More are the children of the desolate than of her that hath the husband” [Isa 54:1; Gal 4:27] , another glorious truth that your presupposition of gospel means regeneration blinds you to.

One, your view seems to eliminate any intellectual activity at all, any kind of mental assent to truth.

No, it's the imaginations (thoughts) that arise from the heart [Mt 5:6, 22, 28; Ro 2:15] that God has always taken into account. Profession brings one into the kingdom, but as plainly put forth in Jn 3, BEFORE one can even see or enter into the kingdom (read SAVED), one must FIRST be born from above. The Spirit works independently of the gospel. Christ is the only mediator between God and man; there is no flesh and blood 'soul winner' inserted between the two that carries the means of eternal life to the unregenerate.

So that leaves me trying to figure out just how the heart knows something.

It's your presupposition of the 'notion' of gospel means regeneration that does this to you.

Yes, I know what the scripture says about the law being written on our hearts. How does that happen?

Jn 3:8.

And finally, I remain convinced that while the Spirit operates sovereignly, he does not regenerate and save independently of the gospel.

And thus the awful doctrine of hardline restrictivism.

 

[12strings]

More Thoughts from Romans (arguing that one can NOT be saved apart from hearing or reading the Gospel):

1. The Romans 2 argument that the Gentiles were regenerated by their following the law in their hearts takes Paul's statement farther than Paul does. He does say that they are "a law unto themselves." but does not explicitly say what this means in regard to their salvation...so we have to look elsewhere. And elsewhere, Paul repeatedly says that no one is justified by their works...
...an unbeliever who has not heard the gospel cannot be justified by following their inner conscience any more than someone who has heard the gospel.
Why? Because "For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, 10 as it is written: 'None is righteous, no, not one; 11 no one understands; no one seeks for God. 12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.'"
(Rom. 3:9-11)

2. Romans 10:1-3 is a shocking passage that makes this very clear:
10 Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness.

a. Paul says that his Fellow Jews have a zeal (passion) for God, but that it does not accord with knowledge...So he is praying for their salvation. They have a passion for God and they AREN'T SAVED! And it is because their passion for God is misplaced, causing them to rely on their own righteousness to reach God, Rather than rely on the Righteousness God wants to give them through Christ.

b. These Jews were IGNORANT (the didn't have knowledge...they had never heard) of the righteousness of God, so they were working very hard (think Pharisees) to try to establish their own righteousness instead of submitting to the fact that they can't do it, and need God's perfect righteousness that comes through belief in Christ.