freeatlast
New Member
No there was no law until Moses;
(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
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Perfect children
- Thread starter Cypress
- Start date
No there was no law until Moses;
(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Did Eve have a so-called sin nature before she sinned and fell?
You tell me.
__________________
No...she did not. There I told you:type:
freeatlast
New Member
No...she did not. There I told you:type:
You sure did! :laugh:
No there was no law until Moses;
(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
What are you saying, that God was mistaken when he said the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the Lord exceedingly?
If they were not sinners, it seems pretty unjust that he burned them up with fire and brimestone, no?
So, according to you, the only law was not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, and that God destroyed the whole world with Noah's flood because of Adam and Eve? Is that what you are saying? Please explain.
You are not understanding the verse properly:No it does not say what you said. You are adding to scripture.
(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
That says there was a time when there was no law. The point is that even though there was a time when there was no law they were still under the curse and death proves that.
We are not lost because we sin. We are already under the curse because of Adam. Our sins only proves our state and adds to our judgment.
(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. (Romans 5:13)
Here is what Jamieson, Faucett and Brown say:
The verse says plainly that sin was in the world between Adam and Moses.For until the law. Paul now shows that all must have sinned in Adam. Until law is given sin is not imputed. Yet sin must have been in the world from the time of Adam until the law of Moses, because death, which is due to sin, reigned. The prevalence of death proved the existence of sin.
Sin is not imputed when there is no law.
But there was law; there was sin; and there was death. All three were present. You can read about it in Genesis. Read about God's continued judgement. You are not interpreting the verse correctly.
You are not understanding the verse properly:
(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. (Romans 5:13)
Here is what Jamieson, Faucett and Brown say:
The verse says plainly that sin was in the world between Adam and Moses.
Sin is not imputed when there is no law.
But there was law; there was sin; and there was death. All three were present. You can read about it in Genesis. Read about God's continued judgement. You are not interpreting the verse correctly.
I disagree with JF&B's interpretation, Rom 5:14 says men DID NOT sin after the similitude of Adam's sin. If Adam's sin was imputed to them, then they would have been guilty of Adam's sin, the scriptures would say they DID sin after the similitude of Adam's sin.
No, I think men were guilty because all men had knowledge of God and were without excuse as Paul says in Romans 1. The men of Sodom knew their actions were unnatural and therefore sinful. (vs. 26-27)
All of this error is due to Augustine using a flawed Latin text of Rom 5:12 that said, "in whom" all have sinned, when the Greek says, "because" or "for that" all have sinned.
This error affects the interpretation of the next 7 verses. Augustine believed Adam's sin and the judgment for sin was unconditionally imputed to all men.
This has to be error, as then you would have to believe Christ's righteousness and life are unconditionally imputed to all men.
Even scholars who support OS have admitted Augustine's error due to a flawed Latin text.
Sin and judgment are conditional. A man has to sin to receive Adam's judgment and condemnation, just as a person has to believe on Jesus to receive justification and life.
This error affects the interpretation of the next 7 verses. Augustine believed Adam's sin and the judgment for sin was unconditionally imputed to all men.
This has to be error, as then you would have to believe Christ's righteousness and life are unconditionally imputed to all men.
Even scholars who support OS have admitted Augustine's error due to a flawed Latin text.
Sin and judgment are conditional. A man has to sin to receive Adam's judgment and condemnation, just as a person has to believe on Jesus to receive justification and life.
No...she did not. There I told you:type:
Wow, who could withstand this powerful argument?
You'll have to give me a few days to read all the scripture you provided to refute me.
Your logic blows me away! :laugh:All of this error is due to Augustine using a flawed Latin text of Rom 5:12 that said, "in whom" all have sinned, when the Greek says, "because" or "for that" all have sinned.
This error affects the interpretation of the next 7 verses. Augustine believed Adam's sin and the judgment for sin was unconditionally imputed to all men.
This has to be error, as then you would have to believe Christ's righteousness and life are unconditionally imputed to all men.
Even scholars who support OS have admitted Augustine's error due to a flawed Latin text.
Sin and judgment are conditional. A man has to sin to receive Adam's judgment and condemnation, just as a person has to believe on Jesus to receive justification and life.
The Bible teaches OS.
Augustine teaches OS.
If Augustine teaches OS, then we know it must be wrong.
Therefore the Bible is not really teaching OS, it must be teaching something else (Winman's ideas because he doesn't like Augustine)
In conclusion, Winman must be right because Augustine is always wrong. It really doesn't matter what the Bible teaches after all.
freeatlast
New Member
You are not understanding the verse properly:
(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. (Romans 5:13)
Here is what Jamieson, Faucett and Brown say:
The verse says plainly that sin was in the world between Adam and Moses.
Sin is not imputed when there is no law.
But there was law; there was sin; and there was death. All three were present. You can read about it in Genesis. Read about God's continued judgement. You are not interpreting the verse correctly.
Jamieson, Faucett and Brown are no doubt learned, however they are wrong in this case.
The passage
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
sinned is in the aorist tense indicating that at one point all men sinned. That happened in Adam.
The proof is that from the time of Adam all men die even babies. It is not that we have all done what Adam did but we all now have a nature of sin dwelling in us.
in the passages;
(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come
Paul points out that before the law of Moses sin was already in the world, but men's failures to meet the law was not imputed towards them because they had no written law. However because men died during that period of no law death is proof that they were sinners. Not because they broke any written law but because they had a sin nature that they received from Adam, so all sinned.
Paul's point is to show that men do not have break a written law to be lost as we are born sinners. Like in Adam all are sinners even if they do not break any written law so it is with all who are in Christ are as if they kept all the written law. It is not our actions that make us lost or saved. It is who we are related to. Adam unto death or Christ unto life eternal.
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freeatlast
New Member
All of this error is due to Augustine using a flawed Latin text of Rom 5:12 that said, "in whom" all have sinned, when the Greek says, "because" or "for that" all have sinned.
This error affects the interpretation of the next 7 verses. Augustine believed Adam's sin and the judgment for sin was unconditionally imputed to all men.
This has to be error, as then you would have to believe Christ's righteousness and life are unconditionally imputed to all men.
Even scholars who support OS have admitted Augustine's error due to a flawed Latin text.
Sin and judgment are conditional. A man has to sin to receive Adam's judgment and condemnation, just as a person has to believe on Jesus to receive justification and life.
No the error is not believing what is written. All sinned. All in Adam die because Adam brought death because sin came on all men. Life comes on all who are in Christ thus the need for the new birth.
You'll have to give me a few days to read all the scripture you provided to refute me.
I just read your posts ....and you mis-use or mis-interpret just about everyone. I would offer you verses but you resist them every time.
When you really want to learn , I think more people would offer more verses.
When you come up with ideas no one else has....chances are you are off track:thumbs::thumbs:
No the error is not believing what is written. All sinned. All in Adam die because Adam brought death because sin came on all men. Life comes on all who are in Christ thus the need for the new birth.
Rom 5:12 does say death passed on all men.
Rom 5:12 DOES NOT say sin passed on all men.
Show me any version of scripture that says sin passed on all men.
freeatlast
New Member
Rom 5:12 does say death passed on all men.
Rom 5:12 DOES NOT say sin passed on all men.
Show me any version of scripture that says sin passed on all men.
I already did. Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
. Also if sin was not passed on then death was not passed on, that is the example given. Babies die so they have sinned passed on to them.
I already did. Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
. Also if sin was not passed on then death was not passed on, that is the example given. Babies die so they have sinned passed on to them.
You have been shown romans 3;23...and romans 5 several times ....and you reject them each time:type:
freeatlast
New Member
You have lost me. What did I reject?You have been shown romans 3;23...and romans 5 several times ....and you reject them each time:type:
This is a key point. The law did not have to be written. No "law" has to be written to be "law." God has his "law" written in our hearts. We are sinners because we break the law. We are also sinners because of our nature. The verse states that during that time sin was in the world. During that time all men had sinned. No one escaped the curse of sin; no one. They didn't need to wait for Mosaic law to tell them they were sinners. God's unwritten law had already convicted them. It had convicted Cain. It had convicted the entire earth that was judged with a Flood and spared only eight people. There was law. Sin was imputed. The world was judged. All mankind save Noah and his family were killed. Isn't that a good enough example right there?
Paul's point is to show that men do not have break a written law to be lost as we are born sinners. Like in Adam all are sinners even if they do not break any written law so it is with all who are in Christ are as if they kept all the written law. It is not our actions that make us lost or saved. It is who we are related to. Adam unto death or Christ unto life eternal.
(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. (Romans 5:13)
Before the first man Adam had been created the Lamb had been scheduled to die.
Unlike angels, God then created the first man Adam with the woman within him subject to both death and perishing and told the man before the woman was made from him to disobey God would bring forth death, that in dying he would surely die. Adam was representative of all men to come after him in that when he sinned he brought death to all men. This death even came to the one of whom the first man Adam was the figure of, he who had no sin, the Lamb without spot or blemish, died. If the One who beget him in Mary had not raised him from the dead he and all who died before him and all who came after him would perish forever after dying.
Adam brought death to all men even one who lived a perfect sinless life for thirty three plus years.
Unlike angels, God then created the first man Adam with the woman within him subject to both death and perishing and told the man before the woman was made from him to disobey God would bring forth death, that in dying he would surely die. Adam was representative of all men to come after him in that when he sinned he brought death to all men. This death even came to the one of whom the first man Adam was the figure of, he who had no sin, the Lamb without spot or blemish, died. If the One who beget him in Mary had not raised him from the dead he and all who died before him and all who came after him would perish forever after dying.
Adam brought death to all men even one who lived a perfect sinless life for thirty three plus years.
I already did. Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
. Also if sin was not passed on then death was not passed on, that is the example given. Babies die so they have sinned passed on to them.
It does not say sin was passed on men, it says death passed on all men FOR THAT all have sinned.
Death passes onto all men because all men sin.
You are interpreting this verse as Augustine did using a flawed Latin text that read;
"and so death passed upon all men, IN WHOM all have sinned"
IN WHOM was error. Scholars have written on this, look it up. IN WHOM led Augustine to believe that Adam's sin was passed on all men (as you believe), but scholars admit the Greek did not say this. Augustine based Original Sin almost exclusively on this one single FLAWED verse in the Latin text, as he did not know Greek well.
This is why I asked you to show me any version that says sin passed on men as the flawed Latin text said. You will not find IN WHOM in any of them, because it is not there in the Greek.
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freeatlast
New Member
This is a key point. The law did not have to be written. No "law" has to be written to be "law." God has his "law" written in our hearts. We are sinners because we break the law. We are also sinners because of our nature. The verse states that during that time sin was in the world. During that time all men had sinned. No one escaped the curse of sin; no one. They didn't need to wait for Mosaic law to tell them they were sinners. God's unwritten law had already convicted them. It had convicted Cain. It had convicted the entire earth that was judged with a Flood and spared only eight people. There was law. Sin was imputed. The world was judged. All mankind save Noah and his family were killed. Isn't that a good enough example right there?
(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. (Romans 5:13)
Yes the law did have to be written to be applied to the person. That is what scripture says and no there was no law according to scripture.