Born Dead

[percho]

Ecc. 12:7 states that the spirit(soul) goes back to God who gave it. I can find nowhere that I am aware of where it shows that both soul and body come from the union of sperm-egg.




EZE. 18:4 and 18:20 says the soul that sinneth, it shall die. To die, there has to be life prior to death. Something dead can not die.



Does a baby sin? Yes. From birth? That's a different question. What sin does a baby committ? When a baby is born, it only knows when its hungary, needs a diaper change, burped, etc. As it ages, it becomes knowledgeable of sinning. An infant lies to keep from getting in trouble, but isn't aware of the consequences of that sin, and God does not impute sin unto them at that time. When they become aware of sinning in the sight of God, and God convicts them of it, then He imputes sin unto them. Until that time, they are under God's Grace, and in that Grace, is Christ's blood.

Ecc. 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

ruwach

Septuagint: The Greek Old Testament πνεῦμα



Luke 23:46 καὶ φωνήσας φωνῇ μεγάλῃ ὁ Ἰησοῦς εἶπεν· πάτερ, εἰς χεῖράς σου παρατίθεμαι τὸ πνεῦμά μου. τοῦτο δὲ εἰπὼν ἐξέπνευσεν.
Jesus, crying with a loud voice, said, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit!" Having said this, he breathed his last.

He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell ψυχῇ (psuchē)


Gen. 2:7 And Jehovah God formeth the man -- dust from the ground, and breatheth into his nostrils breath of life, and the man becometh a living creature.

God did not put a soul in the man. Life from God breathed into the dirt became a soul with life.

 

[12strings]

One, how do you, and how CAN you know what a baby under one year old knows?!? Second, IF you are correct, do you believe the baby understood they were violating God's law (what the Bible defines sin as)?

-I know him, and can read his face and actions than we have taught him not to crawl into the Kitchen. There is clear difference between carpet and hard floor, and for several months now he has shown the ability to understand "NO" and to remember not to cross that line, so that we often don't even have to say "no" anymore. but on occasion, he will begin to cross the line, we will say no, and then he will give us a smirk and put his hand on the kitchen floor.
-Now, You would describe that as his sin nature acting out. I would agree, but also say that he is in fact, sinning. He is no obeying his parents. The fact that he does not know that God gave that commandment does not change the fact that he has broken it.
-I don't believe that Paul is saying in Romans that he was not actually a sinner until he heard the law.
-When Adam sinned by eating the fruit. Did not he also sin by trying to pass the blame to eve (and by implication God, for giving eve to him)? Or, was that blame-shifting not a sin since God had not yet given any laws or instruction about our inner hearts and thoughts?

Just what you describe, the "inborn tendancy to sin", also referred to as the sin nature. Having a sin nature does not make one a sinner, sinning makes one a sinner. People can desire to molest children, and have a strong urge and push to do this heinous act, but they are not molesters until they commit the act.

If I have a desire to molest children, I believe it is a sin that needs to be nipped in the bud before it grows into a greater sin. If I have lustful desires toward women who are not my wife, then Jesus says I have sinned.

 

[webdog]

-I know him, and can read his face and actions than we have taught him not to crawl into the Kitchen. There is clear difference between carpet and hard floor, and for several months now he has shown the ability to understand "NO" and to remember not to cross that line, so that we often don't even have to say "no" anymore. but on occasion, he will begin to cross the line, we will say no, and then he will give us a smirk and put his hand on the kitchen floor.

This is still a baby UNDER one year old! I hardly think he "gets it", he might be learning it, or maybe even thinks it's a game. It's pretty presumptious to base your knowledge of what he knows (what no human can ever state emphatically with another human) on his facial expressions.

-Now, You would describe that as his sin nature acting out. I would agree, but also say that he is in fact, sinning. He is no obeying his parents. The fact that he does not know that God gave that commandment does not change the fact that he has broken it.

Scripture is quite clear that conscious violation of God's law is what sin is. Based on this very fact, he is not sinning as there is no way he can understand God's law. Case in point is Abimilech. He unknowingly took Abraham's wife due to the fact he was told Sarah was his sister. Scripture stated God kept Abe from sinning against him when it is clear taking another man's wife is a sin. He was not found guilty of sinning against God even when the action would state otherwise.

-I don't believe that Paul is saying in Romans that he was not actually a sinner until he heard the law.

Then you are denying the plain teaching he puts forth in Romans 7.

-When Adam sinned by eating the fruit. Did not he also sin by trying to pass the blame to eve (and by implication God, for giving eve to him)? Or, was that blame-shifting not a sin since God had not yet given any laws or instruction about our inner hearts and thoughts?

Irrelevant to the discussion, but even placing the blame on Eve was a sin. Now, Scripture states sin entered through Adam. How can this be since Eve was the one who violated the law first?

If I have a desire to molest children, I believe it is a sin that needs to be nipped in the bud before it grows into a greater sin. If I have lustful desires toward women who are not my wife, then Jesus says I have sinned.

Temptation is not sin. If it were Christ would have been a sinner.

 

[12strings]

Quote:
-I don't believe that Paul is saying in Romans that he was not actually a sinner until he heard the law.

Then you are denying the plain teaching he puts forth in Romans 7.
Quote:

So would you be one of those from the other post who would hold that those who have never heard about Christ or anything in the bible will, or can be saved, since they don't know God's law?

 

[Winman]

I agree with Willis and Webdog, although I do not like the term "sin nature". The scriptures say we are "flesh" and that Jesus came in the flesh and had the same nature as man.

Adam and Eve were flesh before the fall, the scriptures describe in detail Eve's temptation before she actually sinned.

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and did eat.

We see the three types of fleshly lust described in 1 Jn 2:16

1 Jn 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Eve had these lusts;

Good for food = lust of the flesh
Pleasant to the eyes = lust of the eyes
Desired to make one wise = the pride of life

Clearly Eve displayed these lusts of the flesh before she actually sinned. Until she sinned, she was spiritually alive and God said Adam and Eve were very good.

So, it is not our flesh nature that tugs and pulls at us toward sin that makes us evil. It is when we knowingly and willingly obey these lusts in rebellion to one of God's commands that we actually sin and spiritually die.

Jesus had the same fleshly lusts and desires we have and was tempted in all points as we are, but he never obeyed these lusts and never sinned.

 

[freeatlast]

I agree with Willis and Webdog, although I do not like the term "sin nature". The scriptures say we are "flesh" and that Jesus came in the flesh and had the same nature as man.

Adam and Eve were flesh before the fall, the scriptures describe in detail Eve's temptation before she actually sinned.

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and did eat.

We see the three types of fleshly lust described in 1 Jn 2:16

1 Jn 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Eve had these lusts;

Good for food = lust of the flesh
Pleasant to the eyes = lust of the eyes
Desired to make one wise = the pride of life

Clearly Eve displayed these lusts of the flesh before she actually sinned. Until she sinned, she was spiritually alive and God said Adam and Eve were very good.

So, it is not our flesh nature that tugs and pulls at us toward sin that makes us evil. It is when we knowingly and willingly obey these lusts in rebellion to one of God's commands that we actually sin and spiritually die.

Jesus had the same fleshly lusts and desires we have and was tempted in all points as we are, but he never obeyed these lusts and never sinned.

You keep bringing up lusts of the flesh. Our desires (lusts if you will) are not necessarily sinful. Eve saw and did take but her taking was not out of sinful lust. Eve was deceived. Adam is given credit for the fall not Eve. We all have volition and Adam made a volitional move with expressed intent. Adam and Eve were not created with a sin nature.

As for the Lord Jesus He certainly had natural desires, but He never felt to allow them to become sinful desires. He gopt hungry, He knew beauty, He needed sleep, and so on. He was hungry but never entertained robbery or even exercising His authority over the Father to turn stones into bread. The Lord had one desire and that was to do the will of the Father.

 

[Robert Snow]

How can this be since Eve was the one who violated the law first?

13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

1 Timothy 2:13-14 (KJV)

Since Eve was deceived and Adam wasn't. This means that Adam sinned deliberately whereas Eve didn't.

 

[Winman]

FAL, I agree that fleshly lusts are not nesessarily evil. It is not wrong to want a new car if you work hard and pay for it. But if you want a car so badly you steal it, it is wrong.

As far as Jesus, all we know is that scripture says he was tempted in ALL POINTS as we are, yet without sin.

Yes, Satan deceived Eve. He did so by appealing to her natural lusts. But he also lied and said she would not die. Apparently she believed this lie while Adam was not fooled and decided to eat the forbidden fruit anyway. Therefore he was accountable for bringing sin into the world.

Nevertheless, the scriptures clearly show Eve had the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life. Yet God called Adam and Eve very good.

So, this fleshly nature with lusts and desires inherited from Adam and Eve does not make us sinful, as these fleshly lusts did not make Adam and Eve sinful. It was the actual act of disobedience to God that made them sinful.

The scriptures nowhere teach that God judges us for our nature, but for our actual deeds.

 

[Amy.G]

1 Timothy 2:13-14 (KJV)

Since Eve was deceived and Adam wasn't. This means that Adam sinned deliberately whereas Eve didn't.

Oh Eve sinned deliberately too. She quoted God's word to Satan that God had commanded them not to eat of the tree, so she knew. But Adam was the head of Eve and the ultimate responsibility fell on him.

 

[Winman]

Oh Eve sinned deliberately too. She quoted God's word to Satan that God had commanded them not to eat of the tree, so she knew. But Adam was the head of Eve and the ultimate responsibility fell on him.

Some scholars believe Paul was speaking of both Adam and Eve, as God called them both Adam in Gen 5:2

Gen 5:2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day they were created.

 

[freeatlast]

1 Timothy 2:13-14 (KJV)

Since Eve was deceived and Adam wasn't. This means that Adam sinned deliberately whereas Eve didn't.

Well it depends on what you mean by deliberate. She was not forced so in that sense it was deliberate, but she did it out of deception, not because she was saying I don't care what God says, I want this. Adam did however.

 

[Winman]

Well it depends on what you mean by deliberate. She was not forced so in that sense it was deliberate, but she did it out of deception, not because she was saying I don't care what God says, I want this. Adam did however.

I have always wondered if Adam was not a type of Christ who was willing to become sin and die to be with his wife.

 

[freeatlast]

FAL, I agree that fleshly lusts are not nesessarily evil. It is not wrong to want a new car if you work hard and pay for it. But if you want a car so badly you steal it, it is wrong.

As far as Jesus, all we know is that scripture says he was tempted in ALL POINTS as we are, yet without sin.

Yes, Satan deceived Eve. He did so by appealing to her natural lusts. But he also lied and said she would not die. Apparently she believed this lie while Adam was not fooled and decided to eat the forbidden fruit anyway. Therefore he was accountable for bringing sin into the world.

Nevertheless, the scriptures clearly show Eve had the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life. Yet God called Adam and Eve very good.

So, this fleshly nature with lusts and desires inherited from Adam and Eve does not make us sinful, as these fleshly lusts did not make Adam and Eve sinful. It was the actual act of disobedience to God that made them sinful.

The scriptures nowhere teach that God judges us for our nature, but for our actual deeds.

I don't agree with your example of having a vehicle. Just because we work hard and pay for it does not mean it is not wrongful lust. There is a difference between needs and wants and very few people today understand that difference.


You keep using the word lust and it clouds the issue. The Greek word translated lust is the word for desire and has no evil meaning to it. What makes the word evil is the context. Adam and Eve were not created with lusts as in evil. They had natural desires which were very good according to scripture. "and it was very good." There was nothing about them that was contrary to the God who created them. You are trying to evaluate them by your own lusts, which we all have today, and not the created desires.

 

[freeatlast]

I have always wondered if Adam was not a type of Christ who was willing to become sin and die to be with his wife.

His actions of sinning share nothing with Christ as Adams sin was his own and he was not doing anything good.

 

[Winman]

I don't agree with your example of having a vehicle. Just because we work hard and pay for it does not mean it is not wrongful lust. There is a difference between needs and wants and very few people today understand that difference.


You keep using the word lust and it clouds the issue. The Greek word translated lust is the word for desire and has no evil meaning to it. What makes the word evil is the context. Adam and Eve were not created with lusts as in evil. They had natural desires which were very good according to scripture. "and it was very good." There was nothing about them that was contrary to the God who created them. You are trying to evaluate them by your own lusts, which we all have today, and not the created desires.

You are ignoring scripture that clearly shows Eve lusted for the forbidden fruit before she ate of it. If this is not sinful lust, I do not know what is! This fruit was clearly off limits and forbidden them by commandment of God.

You can't simply interpret scripture to suit yourself.

 

[Amy.G]

Well it depends on what you mean by deliberate. She was not forced so in that sense it was deliberate, but she did it out of deception, not because she was saying I don't care what God says, I want this. Adam did however.

Are we reading the same bible? :laugh:
Yes, she did want it.
Eve knew the commandment not to eat of the tree or she would die. She looked at the tree, desired it for food, saw it was beautiful, and knew it would make her wise, so she took of it.


James 1:14-15 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

This is what happened to Eve.

 

[Winman]

Are we reading the same bible? :laugh:
Yes, she did want it.
Eve knew the commandment not to eat of the tree or she would die. She looked at the tree, desired it for food, saw it was beautiful, and knew it would make her wise, so she took of it.


James 1:14-15 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

This is what happened to Eve.

Jam 1:14-15 teaches that sin brings forth death, but many teach the exact opposite, they teach we are born dead and this causes us to sin.

Isn't it amazing that many teach the exact opposite of what scripture says?!

 

[webdog]

Quote:
-I don't believe that Paul is saying in Romans that he was not actually a sinner until he heard the law.


So would you be one of those from the other post who would hold that those who have never heard about Christ or anything in the bible will, or can be saved, since they don't know God's law?

No per Romans 1

 

[freeatlast]

Are we reading the same bible? :laugh:
Yes, she did want it.
Eve knew the commandment not to eat of the tree or she would die. She looked at the tree, desired it for food, saw it was beautiful, and knew it would make her wise, so she took of it.


James 1:14-15 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

This is what happened to Eve.

Yes we are reading the same bible, but what became her lusts was from deception and that was not true of Adam. If you notice there was a point when she did not have those desires. And when the woman saw that the tree [was] good for food, and that it [was] pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make [one] wise, she took of the fruit thereof. This is not about her seeing the tree for the first time. She never felt about the tree like she did until she was lied to.
The point is that while she had those feelings they were brought about through deception (lies) from satan. In the case of Adam that was not the case. It is not said of Adam that he ate for any of those reasons. Adam just rebelled and ate with full knowledge. She believed the tempter and but Adam in the mist of believing God rejected God and ate any way.
So prior to her temptation she was not created with sinful lusts. The woman should have been protected by the man, but he did not do that and instead followed her into his own sin and rebellion bringing the fall.

 

[freeatlast]

Jam 1:14-15 teaches that sin brings forth death, but many teach the exact opposite, they teach we are born dead and this causes us to sin.

Isn't it amazing that many teach the exact opposite of what scripture says?!

Sin does bring forth death and we all died in Adam because of his sin. Babies die even if they do not ever sin.