Are We Born With Sin natures, or receive One When We First Choose To Sin?

Are we born with a sin nature, or did we choose it?
Is that the OP?
Well I didn't choose a sin nature; therefore I was born with one. :laugh:

Just think of some of your benefits. If you are married think of all the birthdays you get to celebrate--not just your own, but with all the different relatives in your family.

Adam lived to 930, died and never celebrated a single birthday.

 

Reply to OP

Excellent questions.

No if "state of innocence" means not made sinners. And again, I understand the term made sinners as being corrupted with the fallen nature of Adam, i.e the Old Man nature, and being separated from God, i.e in a sinful state. Thus even before we commit a volitional sin after the age of accountability.

No, we are condemned from conception according to John 3:18. But, having done no volitional sins, would God torment them forever? I think not. We cannot work our way to heaven but we can dig ourselves a deeper pit in Hell is an old saying that addresses differing levels of punishment. He who leads little ones astray gets a big millstone.

Only those who try to create a loop hole for little ones alter their soteriology with the "elect little ones have faith given to them" salve. I think God allows the little ones to rest in peace, i.e. they cease to be aware and are destroyed painlessly. However, whenever God considers their deeds as sin, then just punishment for those deeds is carried out. And some like me, who has saved up a boat load of wrath, would get the full treatment except for the precious blood of the Lamb.

 

No, God did not condemn Eve for being tempted, he condemned her for eating of the tree which he had commanded they should not eat. Gen 3:11-13.

If being tempted is a sin, then Jesus would have been a sinner, because the scriptures say he was tempted in all points as we are.

This proves that having fleshly desires is not sinful, but only when we obey these desires when they lead us to transgress God's commandment do we sin.

 

Adam and Eve did not have God's nature, because God cannot be tempted.

The very fact Adam and Eve could be tempted before they actually sinned proves they were flesh and had lusts and desires.

How can you possibly tempt someone void of desire? That is a logical impossibility.

Satan didn't zap Adam and Eve with evil, he appealed to the natural lusts and desires they already had in themselves.

 

I look at life and death as, to be or not to be.

The word of God teaches that man is born subject to death.

Man has to be redeemed from death and will have to be resurrected and or changed from mortal to immortal and from corruptible to incorruptible.

Born again.

Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that of antichrist,
Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead;
1 Cor 15:13,17,18 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: And if Christ be not raised, your faith vain; ye are yet in your sins.
Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. (NOT TO BE)

Gen 22:8 God will provide himself a lamb. He did this by birthing himself a man child Jesus that could die and would have to be given life again by his Father that beget him, so those he died for could be given that same life, otherwise they would perish.

It was the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit of Jesus that will allow you to be saved from death by resurrection from the dead.
Acts 2:32,33 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. (resurrected from the dead) Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit,

Having renewing of the Holy Spirit continue on in Titus 3:6,7 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; (He sends the Comforter to us that) That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. (Through the resurrection from the dead)

 

The temptation, in and of itself, is moot.
Adam sinned. He fell. The entire human race plus all of creation was plunged under a curse. Not only does man have a sin nature but all of creation is in disarray. The lamb cannot sleep with the lion. Mosquitoes have become a nuisance to mankind. This is all part of the curse. There is no such thing as innocence.

It is in the nature of mosquitoes to harm man.
It is in the nature of lions and bears to harm "innocent" lambs.
It is in the nature of infants to grow up lying; they have a sin nature. You don't have to teach them to lie; you have to teach them to tell the truth. Their nature is inherently evil. The religion that teaches that they are inherently good are Hinduism and the New Age. The Bible teaches no such thing.

 

Satan did not have flesh and fell for the same reason. He had free will. He chose to rebel against God. Adam chose to rebel against God. It was his will; his choice. That is all the information that you need. Created in the image of God we have the ability to choose whether or not to do right or wrong. Both Adam and Satan chose wrong.

 

Brother, I want to first ask you a question. Why do you ask these types of questions, when I know what you actually believe by reading your posts? I feel like sometimes, we get "baited" into these things. But, I am a sucker for a good debate!! LOL

Now on to your post. I don't think God looks down on infants as being in a state of innonence, but rather, not guilty. A while back(earlier this summer), an toddler(around 3 or 4??) accidently shot and killed their younger sibling while being in a car. Now, all the evidence shows that the toddler pulled the trigger, and was guilty of killing their younger sibling. But no court in the USA would ever convict this child due to the fact it wasn't fully aware of the consequences of handling a gun. It's much the same way with God. When a baby lies, steals, goes against direct orders from the parents, that child may know that it is going against what their parents want them to do, but they are not aware of what they have done, has caused them to transgress God's Law. Therefore, they are in an "not guilty" state, because they aren't innocent, but rather not guilty, because they are not aware of violating God's Law.

Jonah 3
1 And the word of the LORD came unto Jonah the second time, saying,

2 Arise, go unto Nineveh, that great city, and preach unto it the preaching that I bid thee.

3 So Jonah arose, and went unto Nineveh, according to the word of the LORD. Now Nineveh was an exceeding great city of three days' journey.

4 And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown.

Now, here is where Jonah went and preached unto them in Ninevah concerning what God was going to do to them.

Jonah 3
5 So the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them.

6 For word came unto the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, and he laid his robe from him, and covered him with sackcloth, and sat in ashes.

7 And he caused it to be proclaimed and published through Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles, saying, Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste any thing: let them not feed, nor drink water:

8 But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands.

9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?

10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.


After Jonah preached unto them, they believed God, repented of their sins, and turned unto God. God then repented of what He was going to do, and spared that city.

Now, here is what God told Jonah at the end of this book:

Jonah 5
9 And God said to Jonah, Doest thou well to be angry for the gourd? And he said, I do well to be angry, even unto death.

10 Then said the LORD, Thou hast had pity on the gourd, for the which thou hast not laboured, neither madest it grow; which came up in a night, and perished in a night:

11 And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?

This is how God deals with children. Unto they realize what they are doing is a sin unto God(knowingly breaking God's Law), they are "not guilty", and He will spare them from going to hell prior to truly understanding the consequences of sinning. After they come to the knowledge of the truth, and openly and knowingly reject the truth, they are then under condemnation, and if God calls them out of this world, hell is where they will end up. Now, if the Ninevahites(that a word?) had rejected Jonah's preaching, God would have destroyed that place, but since they repented of their sins, He spared their lives.

The fall did affect us, but not they way y'all purport it. The fall caused Adam to fall, and the curse of death was placed upon all mankind. No one born after Adam would live forever. Whether we be Saint or sinner, our flesh body(that is what's "in Adam") will die, period. What seperates us from God is OUR sins, and not Adam's, Eve's, Cain's, Abel's, Moses', Aaron's, Jonah's, Joshua's, David's, Solomon's, Ishmael's, Isaac's, Jacob's, Abraham's, Joseph's, Benjamin's, Judah's, etc. It's OUR sins that seperates us from God. We are under God's Grace until the moment He imputes sin unto us, and then, He removes His Grace from us, and are then placed in a state of condemnation. If we are condemned sinners from conception, then God is the direct Author of sins, and not satan.

I am 99.999999999999999999999999999999% sure you will not agree with my stance, but I do pray that you can at least get an understanding of where I am coming from. Have a blessed weekend, Brother!! :thumbs:

i am I AM's!!

Willis

 

Brother JF, here are some scrpitural support for my beliefs regarding my previous posts:

Deut. 1:39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.


Psalm 32:2 Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

Romans 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Romans 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

 

I agree with your view Willis.

I think it is important to note that God said to Jonah SHOULD I NOT SPARE NINEVAH where there were 120,000 persons who could not discern their right hand from their left. This is almost certainly speaking of little children. God saying he SHOULD spare them to me implies they were not guilty of sin in his eyes.

This is also shown in Deut 1:39 where the parents who sinned in the wilderness were not allowed to enter the promised land, but the little children who did not have knowledge of good and evil IN THAT DAY were allowed to go in. This proves God does not impute our parents sin to us as Eze 18:20 directly says.

Augustine's theory of original sin directly violates God's word, God said the son shall not BEAR THE INIQUITY of his father.

 

Desires does not make a sin nature. Our natural desires do not constitute sinfulness or a sin nature. Look, Spirits do not have flesh and we know that 1/3 of the angels sinned. So what caused them to sin? It is the same with Adam and Eve. God did not create in them a sin nature any more then He created a sin nature in the angelic host. Eve was deceived and she did take out of volition.
Humanity was not created with a sin nature. We are now procreated with one because it has not been passed on to us because of the sin in the garden, but Adam and Eve were not created with a sin nature.

 

FAL, how do you define "sin nature"?

Most folks describe sin nature as those fleshy desires that tempt us to sin. Eve clearly had fleshly desires, and she was clearly tempted by these desires to sin.

So, according to most people's definition of sin nature, Eve had a sin nature BEFORE she actually sinned.

So, how do you define sin nature?

And how do you define Eve's nature before the fall as described in Gen 3:6?

What change took place when Adam and Eve sinned concerning their natures?

 

It appears that you don't have a good definition of "sin nature." According to you Lucifer had a sin nature. Did he? According to your definition he did.
In fact, "Jesus was tempted in all points such as we are." According to your definition Jesus had a sin nature. Do you believe this also? Are you sure you have the right definition?

 

I agree with you 100% that free will is the answer to why sin exists. I have said this many times.

But that is not what others say, they say we inherit a depraved nature with either limited or no free will to choose for God. Where is even one verse in all of scripture to support this?

Many have tried to argue that Adam and Eve had pure natures that did not tempt them before the fall, but Gen 3:6 refutes this. Eve had desires, and they were desires for what God had forbidden, and she was clearly tempted by these desires, regardless if they were excited by Satan. If Adam and Eve were created with God's nature, it would have been impossible to tempt them, as God cannot be tempted with evil. (Jam 1:13)

 

Good, then you will have to agree that free will is not the same as a sin nature.

One can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.
Even if I give you all the evidence in the world, beyond any shadow of a doubt, will you accept my evidence? The probability of you doing so is "no".
The evidence is in Psalm 51:5; 58:3; Jer.13:23; Gen.3:15; Gal.3:10,13; Rom.5:12,19; Rom.3:9-12; and on and on. You can start with those.

So? Both Lucifer and Jesus were tempted also. That blows your theory right out of the water. Temptation in and of itself is not sin. Lucifer gave into the temptation (as did Eve); Christ did not. Remember that God never imputed sin to Eve, but only to Adam.

The sin was not in the temptation as you wrongly suppose.

 

Psa 51:5 is obvious hyperbole unless you think sins can be washed away by hyssop, and that God literally broke David's bones (vs. 7-8)

Psa 58:3 is also hyperbole unless you believe children are poisonous like an adder, have teeth like lions, and melt like a snail (vs. 4, 6, 8)

You form doctrine from obvious exaggeration and figurative scripture? Unbelieveable.

Jer 13:23 says "accustomed to do evil". Look up the definition of accustomed, it means "learned behavior, or habit".

Gal 3:10, 13? I have never denied the curse, but what is the curse? Did God curse our moral nature? I do not see one word about that in the curse.

Rom 3:9-12? I do not deny that all men sin, but nothing in these verses says we are BORN with a depraved nature.

So, you start with a presupposition and look for scripture to support it. Problem is, none of these scriptures says man is born with a depraved nature.

 

Stick with the verse. It is a psalm of repentance. Are you going to allegorize the entire psalm so there is not an ounce of truth left in it? I didn't take you for that type of a person.

Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. (Psalms 51:5)
Words have meanings. Why did David say what he said? I am sure it wasn't just for the good of his own health, though repenting does one's spiritual health much good.
He was shapen in iniquity:
First go to the context and then return to this verse:
Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest. (Psalms 51:4)

David, having just admitted his guilt before God and the great evil he has committed looks to himself from where this evil comes from. He is repenting and realizes that right from birth onward he was born in sin, that is with a sin nature. His mother (or parents were not to be blamed). But the passing on of a sin nature was the natural course of nature in a sin cursed world for every man.

Most other translations, including the ASV translate it this way:
Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity; And in sin did my mother conceive me. (Psalms 51:5)
The moment he was born he was born with a sin nature. "Brought forth in sin" has no other meaning than that. His parents did no sin in having this child.
Spurgeon says this on this phrase:

--Spurgeon also speaks of his sin nature and believes that that is what David is referring to.

"In sin did my mother conceive me."
--Again Spurgeon says about this phrase:

--This is one of the strongest arguments in the Bible for original sin or evidences of an inherited sin nature.



Allegorize away; allegorize the resurrection away also--the J.W.'s do.

 

Winman actually I am not comfortable with the term "sin nature." The reason is that it is not a biblical rendering. I use it in discussions like this because it is a term that most people use and to try and correct what I think is error in the word throws the topic off subject and bogs things down.
However to your question. Since we are using the word I have to refer to scripture to see how the Lord uses the word "nature". Here are some passages; Rom. 1:26, 2:14, 2:27, 11:24,1Cor 11:14. If you look over those passages, and there are several others, you will see that nature means that which comes natural or is normal. However that does not mean it is absolute and cannot be overridden.

So in the case of man who is now fallen it is natural for him to sin (sin comes naturally) and what we see in him comes from what most call a sin nature. However once saved the sin nature is gone and it is no longer natural for us to sin. 1John 3.
In the case of Eve it was not her nature to sin, but she was deceived and did eat, but not from a sin nature but out of volition. Prior to coming to Christ we as sinners sin by nature, but not because we have to. We have a volition also and can decide not to sin and go against our nature. After salvation our nature is new, 2Cor 5:17 and we no longer have a sin nature as that man died, but we are left with the flesh to battle.

The flesh goes against our new nature to sin, but this too is not necessary as we do not have to sin since we now have both volition and a new nature. So all our sin is a choice, prior to salvation and after salvation. The only difference is that prior to salvation it comes without effort and after salvation it comes with effort.
Prior to salvation sinning is normal, but not necessary. After salvation sin is not normal and not necessary.
So again the term "sin nature" would be that which is normal or natural and something the believer does not have (Sin in the believer is not natural). We are not battling a sin nature after salvation, we are battling the fallen flesh.

 

This is false. Paul spends an entire chapter (Romans 7) describing (after salvation) how his new nature battles his old nature. If you have no battle with your old nature you must live a pretty easy life and I envy you. You are in the same place as Christ was. Your old nature was eradicated and you have no reason to sin.

Jesus said "If you look upon a woman and lust after her in your heart you have committed adultery." But you don't do that. You don't have a sin nature.
Jesus said, If you get angry with your brother...it is murder" But you don't do that. You don' have a sin nature.
It says "Thou shalt not covet." You never have any desire to want those things that are not yours and cannot have--like all the times you go "window shopping" and "wish" you could have this or that but know you can't afford it. But you don't do that because you don't have a sin nature.
You never lie because you don't have a sin nature. That is in spite of what the Bible says in Rom.3:4 "Let God be true; but every man a liar."

In other words you are perfect. You never sin. You don't need to. You don't have a sin nature. Correct. You are just like Jesus. You don't have to obey the command to "be conformed to his image" for you already are in his image, for you don't have a sin nature.

BTW, 2Cor.5:17 is one of the most misused verses in the Bible.
"Old things are passed away; all things are new." It is not talking about sin natures. It is not talking about the nature of man at all. In fact it is hardly referring to salvation. Have you ever read the context or just quote it at your convenience?

Wherefore we henceforth know no man after the flesh: even though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now we know him so no more. (2 Corinthians 5:16)
--Remember he is addressing the problems that the local church at Corinth were having. The church at Corinth were made up of a great mixture of people: believers with a Jewish background, Gentile background, rich people, poor people, etc. It was a port city of Greece on a major trading route that attracted a great variety of people.

Paul writes to the members there and says that as believers we know no man after the flesh. What does that mean? It means, that as believers in Christ we are equals. The banker and the street-sweeper are equal. The banker is no more important than the street-sweeper in God's eyes. We don't know them any longer after the flesh. We did know them after the flesh (their "fleshly" occupation), but here in the church, we don't know them that way.

Thus he continues:
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. (2 Corinthians 5:17)
--If we are in Christ we are new creatures.
Old things are passed away. What are the old things? The things of the world such as your occupation, your ethnic background, your size, your disabilities, etc.
All things are become new. There is now no reason to discriminate against each other. The banker can no longer discriminate against the street-sweeper for they are one in Christ. Those old things that once separated them are no longer. All things are become new. Their relationships are now new. The past is behind them. They can have fellowship with one another no matter what previously separated them.

And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; (2 Corinthians 5:18)
--As God has reconciled us to himself, we need to be reconciled to each other. There ought nothing come between any member of the church and any other member. There should be no divisions; only unity. That is the context of the passage--not sin natures and new natures!

 

In response to DHK #36

It is no surprise that Spurgeon supports your view as he was a Calvinist.

I could present scripture that counters your's. In Psalm 139 David says he was covered by God in his mother's womb, and that he is fearfully and wonderfully made. Strange words to describe a filthy sinner.

Ecc 7:29 says God made man upright, but they have sought many inventions. In other words, God makes man good, but they soon turn to sin.

Psa 100:3 says that God made us, and we are his people, the sheep of his pasture.

I could show you many more, all verses that counter your proof texts. So, your proof texts do not prove your view is correct.

It is simple really, if God made us sinners, then we are not responsible for our sin, as we are only doing what God designed us to do. This makes God the author of sin.

In my view, men are made upright and turn to sin of their own free will making man 100% responsible for his own sin.

That is the REAL issue.