Are We Born With Sin natures, or receive One When We First Choose To Sin?

[matt wade]

no it's not, people make choices. no Calvinst would ever say otherwise

Yes, Calvinists on this board have said that the calvinist god controls every choice that man makes. You, as a calvinist, may not believe this, but it has been said by calvinists on this board. That belief makes man a robot controlled by a god.

Very well, I'll report your post and let the mods change it. It's really sad to have someone like you posting the way you do. It gives a bad name to others that are not Calvinists. you have some serious issues that you need to deal with. I call out for you to be respectful and you continue to say I worship a false god, which is very wrong and a violation of forum rules.

You obviously quoted my post within seconds of it going live. Within 20 seconds of it going live I had already edited the references to "your god", as evidenced by my post above (and you can see there is not a modified tag on it, which shows it was edited VERY quickly). I am not here to tell you what god you worship.

Have fun reporting me anyway. I'm not too worried about getting in trouble for something I believe in.

 

[jbh28]

Yes, Calvinists on this board have said that the calvinist god controls every choice that man makes. You, as a calvinist, may not believe this, but it has been said by calvinists on this board. That belief makes man a robot controlled by a god.



You obviously quoted my post within seconds of it going live. Within 20 seconds of it going live I had already edited the references to "your god", as evidenced by my post above (and you can see there is not a modified tag on it, which shows it was edited VERY quickly). I am not here to tell you what god you worship.

Have fun reporting me anyway. I'm not too worried about getting in trouble for something I believe in.

You still are using the small g in "calvinist god". What you are saying is that Calvinist worship a false god which is uncalled for and against forum rules. You can disagree all you want, but saying we believe a false god is basically saying we are unsaved. (you are not saved if you don't worship the true God of the Bible).

I'm not even going to deal with the racist comments about God at all. I ask again, please edit your inflammatory post. We can discuss issues without being unchristlike in our postings.

 

[matt wade]

You still are using the small g in "calvinist god". What you are saying is that Calvinist worship a false god which is uncalled for and against forum rules. You can disagree all you want, but saying we believe a false god is basically saying we are unsaved. (you are not saved if you don't worship the true God of the Bible).

Yes, I say the calvinist god, just as I would say the catholic god, the arminian god, or the unitarian god. There are a whole host of gods people worship that are not God. You are correct, you are not saved if you do not worship the true God of the Bible. I'm not in a position to determine which god you worship. Only you are in a position to determine that. Please show me the forum rule that states that I must believe that the god of calvinism is the true God?

I'm not even going to deal with the racist comments about God at all. I ask again, please edit your inflammatory post. We can discuss issues without being unchristlike in our postings.

Again, I'm sorry if you find my posts inflammatory. I don't feel like I'm being unchristlike. I'm simply stating what I believe. Would it be better if I lied and disguised what I believe?

 

[jbh28]

Yes, I say the calvinist god, just as I would say the catholic god, the arminian god, or the unitarian god. There are a whole host of gods people worship that are not God. You are correct, you are not saved if you do not worship the true God of the Bible. I'm not in a position to determine which god you worship. Only you are in a position to determine that. Please show me the forum rule that states that I must believe that the god of calvinism is the true God?

Again, you are breaking forum rules and saying I worship a false god because obviously I'm a Calvinist.

Again, I'm sorry if you find my posts inflammatory. I don't feel like I'm being unchristlike. I'm simply stating what I believe. Would it be better if I lied and disguised what I believe?

No, say what you believe. Discuss your doctrine. don't say Calvinist worship a false god. If I misinterpret what God teaches about himself doesn't mean I worship a false God. It just means my doctrine is wrong.

If you want to discuss doctrine, then I'm all for it. If you are going to say people you disagree with are not Christians(saying they worship a false god) then I'm not going to be able to discuss it with you. I would like to be able to have a Christlike discussion.

 

[matt wade]

No, say what you believe. Discuss your doctrine. don't say Calvinist worship a false god. If I misinterpret what God teaches about himself doesn't mean I worship a false God. It just means my doctrine is wrong.

If you want to discuss doctrine, then I'm all for it. If you are going to say people you disagree with are not Christians(saying they worship a false god) then I'm not going to be able to discuss it with you. I would like to be able to have a Christlike discussion.

I don't believe that all people I disagree with are not Christians. I disagree with people all the time that are Christians. I simply believe that the god of calvinism is not the God of the Bible. Do you believe that the god of mormonism is the God of the Bible? If not, then why is it ok for you to believe and say that, yet I'm not allowed to express my belief?

 

[jbh28]

I don't believe that all people I disagree with are not Christians. I disagree with people all the time that are Christians. I simply believe that the god of calvinism is not the God of the Bible. Do you believe that the god of mormonism is the God of the Bible? If not, then why is it ok for you to believe and say that, yet I'm not allowed to express my belief?

Mormons are not Christians.
Calvinists are Christians
Arminians are Christians.

That's the difference. You are speaking with other baptist believers.

 

[seekingthetruth]

ignorant

John, no one things you are an "ignorant bigot" for disagreeing. I said you were ignorant of Calvinism, not ignorant in general. You probably are a lot smarter than I am, I have no way of knowing. Matt's post was uncalled for. As I told him, we are on the Lords side. I don't care if you disagree with me. I'll discuss it with you all day, but don't say I believe something I don't. This is common on anti-calvinistic literature.

And no, I don't think you are stupid. you were able to turn on your computer, open your web browser....well, that's more than some of people can do.

Let's just say that calling someone ignorant will not help your cause:jesus:

john

 

[jbh28]

Let's just say that calling someone ignorant will not help your cause:jesus:

john

My apologies if I offended you with that. I was only speaking of ignorance of Calvinism and not in general. It wasn't my intention to be cruel. I'm sorry that I upset you with that.

 

[matt wade]

Mormons are not Christians.
Calvinists are Christians
Arminians are Christians.

We can agree to disagree on this. I believe that calvinists and arminians miss out on key points of God's nature. As such, they are not worshiping God. I think you would agree that if someone doesn't hold to the divinity of Jesus Christ that they are missing a key point. That is how I feel about key points such as eternal security and the often debated "..so loved the world" and "whosoever".

 

[seekingthetruth]

Mormons are not Christians.
Calvinists are Christians
Arminians are Christians.

That's the difference. You are speaking with other baptist believers.

Armenians are only Christians on good days when they haven't sinned.:godisgood: I don't know what happens between all of their salvations.

John

 

[seekingthetruth]

My apologies if I offended you with that. I was only speaking of ignorance of Calvinism and not in general. It wasn't my intention to be cruel. I'm sorry that I upset you with that.

Actually, I took a course in Calvinism in Bible College. I could quote all of the scripture that Calvinists use to support their beliefs, and I can quote all of the scriptures that i believe refute it.

On this blog I gave you the short version, trying to find out why a Calvinist would even be concerned about original sin, since he is going to heaven no matter what.

Anyway, this has been fun. And I was not as offended as I was suprised. I didn't expect animosity on here. But now that I know, it's game on.

you guys have a good night

John

 

[percho]

No, the tree was restricted because without a law there can be no obedience or disobedience, there can be no choice to love God willingly.

If God had said they could freely eat of all the trees, how do you disobey this? You can't, so there is no choice.

You are correct about Eve, Satan appealed to her lust, but it was her own lust that tempted her to sin. The scriptures clearly say every man is tempted when he is drawn away of his OWN lust and enticed. If having lusts that tempt us is what people define as a sin nature, then Eve had a sin nature.

I disagree, I say she was flesh.

Win

That is what I also said. She was flesh. That is where the lust resides. In the flesh.
The flesh is corruptible and subject to the lust there of. In the conversation between Jesus and Nicodemus there isn't anything said about sin. It is the contrast between the flesh and the spirit.Because of the lust that was in her, Satan led her on and through her lust temptation came. I do not believe in a sin nature. I believe God made us a natural flesh being with desires of the flesh.

Even if we were sinless we would still have to be born again to enter, inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[percho]

And much more...

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

HankD​

Amen Hank and the manifestion of that is at the resurrection from the dead.

Romans 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
Luke 20:36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection
Thou art my Son this day have I begotten thee.
Who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all he might have the preeminence.
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren

 

[percho]

Calvinists do believe people are robots. The calvinist god has destined that some people are completely incapable of making a choice to believe. You say that people make "very willing choices". That's twisting of words. You may say that people make these choices, but of course the calvinist god shapes their desires and their choices are based upon those desires. So, ultimately, the calvinist god shapes (programs) their choices.

I'm sorry if you feel my post is unchristlike. I will not remove it. It's what I believe and I am not ashamed to believe it. I believe that the god of calvinism is not the God of the Bible. The God of the Bible allows all people to choose whether they will trust in Jesus Christ's redeeming work. The god of calvinism unmercifully sends people to hell and gives them no chance at redemption. The god of calvinism is a racist and saves more white people in America than brown people in the Middle East.

If you worship the God of the Bible, then praise be! I'm not here to tell you which god you worship.

Matt is the calvinist god the God of Abraham? Did Abram by faith seek out god/God or did God call Abram making him a sheep changing his name to Abraham
a believing one?

 

[seekingthetruth]

Matt is the calvinist god the God of Abraham? Did Abram by faith seek out god/God or did God call Abram making him a sheep changing his name to Abraham
a believing one?

Isn't the Islamic god also the "god of Abraham"?

Isn't the God of the Jews also the God of Abraham?

Isn't the god of the Mormons the "god of Abraham"?

I don't know the answer as to who will be in heaven, or how close to the Bible you actually have to believe.

But I don't believe that anyone will be in heaven that doesn't put his trust in the Grace of Jesus to get there, no matter what god he worships.

I believe in eternity security, but i can't say that folks that believe in conditional salvation aren't saved. I don't know. It seems to me that conditional trust is not real trust, but still, it is not up to me.

As far as the Calvinists, (the upper class if you will), I hope you are all pleasantly suprised to see some of us lower class believers up there.

I was born poor, I have lived middle class, and I will die poor. But I don't think for a second that it makes one difference in heaven. You elitists enjoy your upper class, superior existance here.....and hey, I hope you keep it in heaven, just don't be suprised to see me there licking up your scraps

John

 

[percho]

Isn't the Islamic god also the "god of Abraham"?

Isn't the God of the Jews also the God of Abraham?

Isn't the god of the Mormons the "god of Abraham"?

I don't know the answer as to who will be in heaven, or how close to the Bible you actually have to believe.

But I don't believe that anyone will be in heaven that doesn't put his trust in the Grace of Jesus to get there, no matter what god he worships.

I believe in eternity security, but i can't say that folks that believe in conditional salvation aren't saved. I don't know. It seems to me that conditional trust is not real trust, but still, it is not up to me.

As far as the Calvinists, (the upper class if you will), I hope you are all pleasantly suprised to see some of us lower class believers up there.

I was born poor, I have lived middle class, and I will die poor. But I don't think for a second that it makes one difference in heaven. You elitists enjoy your upper class, superior existance here.....and hey, I hope you keep it in heaven, just don't be suprised to see me there licking up your scraps

John

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

I believe the bible teaches that these chosen and predestinated are done so because of the faith of Christ not their faith in Christ. No where is the fate of anyone else spoken of. It just speaks of these being chosen for a specific purpose of God that carries with that purpose eternal life.

Stated about those above in Ephesians is this also.

Having made known unto us (the chosen the predestined) the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

And what it that?

That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; in him:

When is the dispensation of the fulness of times? Has it come and gone? Is it going on now? Is it sometime in the far distant future?
I have looked at the Greek interliner at Scripture4all.org and the Greek interliner from Westcott & Hort GNT - Literal Translation and the word things is not there.

I also see scripture speaking of being cast into outer darkness and resurrection to damnation/condemnation.

That is the very reason I think I will let God be the keeper of my soul for he still has some hidden things from me.