Are We Born With Sin natures, or receive One When We First Choose To Sin?

[DHK]

That is not really accurate. I have 8 kids, how many have you? So, I think I know a little about children.

Children are bluntly honest in reality, they are loving, they are forgiving, they are trusting.

No one is "bluntly honest." They are deceptively evil in their nature from birth. They are selfish not wanting to share. They are self-centered. The world revolves around them. They are very selfish individuals. They have to learn how to tell the truth, how to behave properly. Those traits are not inbred, but evil is.

Do children sin? Yes, they are not perfect, but they are not the evil monsters some here portray them as. Jesus picked up small children and said of such is the kingdom of heaven, hardly something he would say of wicked sinners.

Jesus was referring to the faith of the children, not the children themselves. Children trust their parents in simple faith, as we should trust God in simple faith. Unsaved man has the ability to believe and sin. Small children have the ability to make decisions--wrong ones--due to their evil nature.

It is when a child grows and matures having knowledge of good and evil he becomes a sinner when he knowingly sins.

That is nonsense.
One does not become a sinner. That sounds the Oberlin theology that Charles Finney taught. We all are sinners; we don't become sinners. If that notion were true then it would be possible for a man to go through life without sin, wouldn't it. That seriously contradicts what John said:

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. (1 John 1:8)
If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. (1 John 1:10)
--How long can a child go without sin (assuming they don't have a sin nature)? 8 years? 10 years? 15 years? 20 years? 30 years? 50 years?
How long from birth can a person go without sinning?

You are in denial of Romans 3:23 that "all have sinned," (even 3 year olds), and that declaring such people have no sin you deceive yourself and the truth is not in you.
[At least those that believe in that manner must come to such conclusions].

Adam and Eve were flesh, they had fleshly desires as described in Gen 3:6. But they did not become sinners until they broke God's known commandment.

Adam and Eve were created not born. They were part of God's perfect creation, like Lucifer and all the angels. Lucifer and one third of all the angels fell (without flesh). The (like Adam) fell because they rebelled against God out of their own free will.

Children have fleshly desires as well, they also do not become sinners until they understand sin before God and willingly break a known commandment.

--They are born sinners. They sin because they have the nature to sin; the leopard has spots and not stripes. He is born that way. The Ethiopian has black skin and not white. He is born that way. We are all born sinners. That is what the Bible teaches (Jer.13:23).

 

[percho]

That is not really accurate. I have 8 kids, how many have you? So, I think I know a little about children.

Children are bluntly honest in reality, they are loving, they are forgiving, they are trusting.

Do children sin? Yes, they are not perfect, but they are not the evil monsters some here portray them as. Jesus picked up small children and said of such is the kingdom of heaven, hardly something he would say of wicked sinners.

It is when a child grows and matures having knowledge of good and evil he becomes a sinner when he knowingly sins.

Adam and Eve were flesh, they had fleshly desires as described in Gen 3:6. But they did not become sinners until they broke God's known commandment.

Children have fleshly desires as well, they also do not become sinners until they understand sin before God and willingly break a known commandment.

That is the very fruit Mom and Dad ate for us. The knowledge of good and evil. Their creator did not want them to have this knowledge. They would not know what to do with it. Their children would grow up and kill one or another. Who did Cain learn to do this from? He was just a grown up baby.
Wasn't a whole lot of folks around.

 

[Winman]

That is the very fruit Mom and Dad ate for us. The knowledge of good and evil. Their creator did not want them to have this knowledge. They would not know what to do with it. Their children would grow up and kill one or another. Who did Cain learn to do this from? He was just a grown up baby.
Wasn't a whole lot of folks around.

The knowledge of good and evil did not cause them to sin, they sinned before they had this knowledge. The knowledge they acquired made them accountable, and thus they died.

Satan and the fallen angels did not have a sin nature, they were created perfect, and yet they sinned.

The cause of sin is our free will to obey or disobey, not our flesh that tempts us.

 

[HankD]

The knowledge of good and evil did not cause them to sin, they sinned before they had this knowledge. The knowledge they acquired made them accountable, and thus they died.

Satan and the fallen angels did not have a sin nature, they were created perfect, and yet they sinned.

The cause of sin is our free will to obey or disobey, not our flesh that tempts us.

Hi winman,

Here is a thought.

Adam and Eve were also created perfect.
So I don't see the connection.

But it's an interesting observation because satan and his angels don't reproduce (yes, I know some people believe they can) so we can't observe their offspring to test your statement (don't know if I would want to observe them).

But I just can't get past Romans chapter 5 and especially 5:12 winman:

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:​

man = anthropos In this passage sin entered the world via Adam not satan. Adam is given position of progenitor of the human race.​

Note the key verbs in the passage they agree in tense, voice and mood.​

sin "entered" - past tense (Aorist active indicative).
death "passed" - past tense (Aorist active indicative).
all have "sinned" - past tense (Aorist active indicative).​

Scripturally speaking it seems to be saying that these things happened simultaneously.​

Were sin in humanity not timeless, not universal and unlearned then your proposition would be plausible.​

But we all sin without exception and that without having to learn how.​

The apple tree is still an apple tree even before it matures enough to bear fruit.​

HankD​

 

[quantumfaith]

Hi winman,

Here is a thought.

Adam and Eve were also created perfect.
So I don't see the connection.

But it's an interesting observation because satan and his angels don't reproduce (yes, I know some people believe they can) so we can't observe their offspring to test your statement (don't know if I would want to observe them).

But I just can't get past Romans chapter 5 and especially 5:12 winman:

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:​

man = anthropos In this passage sin entered the world via Adam not satan. Adam is given position of progenitor of the human race.​

Note the key verbs in the passage they agree in tense, voice and mood.​

sin "entered" - past tense (Aorist active indicative).
death "passed" - past tense (Aorist active indicative).
all have "sinned" - past tense (Aorist active indicative).​

Scripturally speaking it seems to be saying that these things happened simultaneously.​

Were sin in humanity not timeless, not universal and unlearned then your proposition would be plausible.​

But we all sin without exception and that without having to learn how.​

The apple tree is still an apple tree even before it matures enough to bear fruit.​

HankD​

Hank, I am with you in that I am convinced we definitely have an inherited nature bent on sin, rebellion and bent toward ourselves. However, I am not certain that we can say Adam and Eve were created "perfect". Does "good" or "very good" in the hebrew indicate perfection, or rather perhaps innocence (without guilt)?

 

[webdog]

sin "entered" - past tense (Aorist active indicative).
death "passed" - past tense (Aorist active indicative).
all have "sinned" - past tense (Aorist active indicative).

Yes, all are past tense but not all are describing the same event.

Romans 5:12 is always isolated from the surrounding text...

12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, in this way death spread to all men, because all sinned. [c] 13 In fact, sin was in the world before the law, but sin is not charged to one's account when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who did not sin in the likeness of Adam's transgression. He is a prototype of the Coming One.

 

[convicted1]

Hi winman,

Here is a thought.

Adam and Eve were also created perfect.
So I don't see the connection.

But it's an interesting observation because satan and his angels don't reproduce (yes, I know some people believe they can) so we can't observe their offspring to test your statement (don't know if I would want to observe them).

But I just can't get past Romans chapter 5 and especially 5:12 winman:

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:​

man = anthropos In this passage sin entered the world via Adam not satan. Adam is given position of progenitor of the human race.​

Note the key verbs in the passage they agree in tense, voice and mood.​

sin "entered" - past tense (Aorist active indicative).
death "passed" - past tense (Aorist active indicative).
all have "sinned" - past tense (Aorist active indicative).​

Scripturally speaking it seems to be saying that these things happened simultaneously.​

Were sin in humanity not timeless, not universal and unlearned then your proposition would be plausible.​

But we all sin without exception and that without having to learn how.​

The apple tree is still an apple tree even before it matures enough to bear fruit.​

HankD​

Well, Brother, look at it like this. When Adam sinned in the Garden, the "death sentence" was pronounced upon them, and on everyone who would ever be born in the flesh. No matter how saved we are, our flesh WILL die. We can not escape this death.

Now, the soul of man dies when it sins(separation from God). To say the soul is created in an already fallen state because of sin lays the blame solely on God. We are conceived in sin, correct. But was is conceived in conception? Our fleshly bodies. The soul comes from God(Ecc. 12:7).

We are under God's Grace(under His blood also) until the time God imputes sin unto us. When we willfully(and knowingly) sin before God, He then imputes sin unto us.

 

[DHK]

Yes, all are past tense but not all are describing the same event.

Romans 5:12 is always isolated from the surrounding text...

12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, in this way death spread to all men, because all sinned. [c] 13 In fact, sin was in the world before the law, but sin is not charged to one's account when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who did not sin in the likeness of Adam's transgression. He is a prototype of the Coming One.

sin is not charged to one's account when there is no law.

That is a fact, and it must be taken in the context in which it is written, not misunderstood or other axioms eisigeted out of the same passage.
For example, The passage does not say there was no law from Adam to Moses. That is far from the truth. There was much law: "Thou shalt not eat of the fruit of the tree on the knowledge of good and evil," was one such law. Genesis 6:9 states the law of capital punishment. There was plenty of law before Moses and plenty of death. Read Genesis chapters 5 and 10 "...and they died."
"Sin is not charged to one's account when there is no law."
But there was law; sin was charged, and there was death.

 

[JesusFan]

sin is not charged to one's account when there is no law.

That is a fact, and it must be taken in the context in which it is written, not misunderstood or other axioms eisigeted out of the same passage.
For example, The passage does not say there was no law from Adam to Moses. That is far from the truth. There was much law: "Thou shalt not eat of the fruit of the tree on the knowledge of good and evil," was one such law. Genesis 6:9 states the law of capital punishment. There was plenty of law before Moses and plenty of death. Read Genesis chapters 5 and 10 "...and they died."
"Sin is not charged to one's account when there is no law."
But there was law; sin was charged, and there was death.

Didn't the curse/judgement by God against Sin of Adam though go to humanity?

So every person born since Adam was a sinner, regardless IF there was a law given by God yet or not?

Did God either have it before the law that people were 'a law unto themselves" as paul stated in Romans? were judged by their means to keep Law they help in themselves?

Or did God forbade His judgement against their Sin, as via Paul in Acts?
that God "overlooked" sins, but now ALL called to repent, as coming promised messiah finally arrived, jesus?

 

[DHK]

Didn't the curse/judgement by God against Sin of Adam though go to humanity?

Yes, not only all humanity, but the entire creation is under the curse. The woman gives birth in pain. The ground gives forth thorns and thistles. The man must toil by the sweat of his brow. And the children grow up with a sin nature and eventually die. Everything falls to the second law of thermodynamics, is in a perpetual state of decay. There is nothing "innocent" in this world. All mankind and nature itself is under this terrible curse. It will only be lifted when Christ comes to set up his Kingdom.

So every person born since Adam was a sinner, regardless IF there was a law given by God yet or not?

Every person has been affected by the curse and God's law which by the very least has been written on their hearts and in their consciences. They know by nature the difference between right and wrong. They are without excuse (Rom.1:20; 2:14,15).

Did God either have it before the law that people were 'a law unto themselves" as paul stated in Romans? were judged by their means to keep Law they help in themselves?

God had given laws to Adam, and even more laws as time passed on.
--the law not to eat of the fruit of that tree.
--the law not to be angry.
--the law not to kill thy brother.
--the law to bring regular sacrifices of a specific kind to the Lord (which seemed to be carried on well after the Fall by the descendants of Adam.
--the law against polygamy--Lamech having two wives.
--the law against staying together instead of spreading abroad and populating the earth, and thus the condemnation of the tower of Babel and the confusion of languages.
--As far back as Genesis 7 "the heart of every man was evil continually." They rebelled against God, and God brought a flood upon them. They knew God's laws and rebelled against them anyway. The light of God had been made known to them. Noah preached 120 years to them.

Or did God forbade His judgement against their Sin, as via Paul in Acts?

God always judges sin.

that God "overlooked" sins, but now ALL called to repent, as coming promised messiah finally arrived, jesus?

God doesn't overlook sin.

Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity: wherefore lookest thou upon them that deal treacherously, and holdest thy tongue when the wicked devoureth the man that is more righteous than he? (Habakkuk 1:13)

And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead. (Acts 17:30-31)

30. the times of this ignorance God winked at--literally (and far better), "overlooked," that is, bore with, without interposing to punish it, otherwise than suffering the debasing tendency of such worship to develop itself (compare Ac 14:16, and see on Cmt. on Ro 1:24, &c.).

(Jamieson, Faucett and Brown.

--To overlook is not to condone or even ignore. It is to tolerate for this particular time, perhaps to delay the punishment thereof.

Verse 31 gives the evident context. There is a day coming when God will judge the world in righteousness. It is not apparent to them that their sin will not be judged, but it will; if not now, then certainly later.

 

[JesusFan]

[

QUOTE=DHK;1731631]Yes, not only all humanity, but the entire creation is under the curse. The woman gives birth in pain. The ground gives forth thorns and thistles. The man must toil by the sweat of his brow. And the children grow up with a sin nature and eventually die. Everything falls to the second law of thermodynamics, is in a perpetual state of decay. There is nothing "innocent" in this world. All mankind and nature itself is under this terrible curse. It will only be lifted when Christ comes to set up his Kingdom.

yes, as paul stated in Romans, all creation now 'groaning" under effects of the Curse, waiting to be 'redeemed" by jesus at time of His Second Coming!

Every person has been affected by the curse and God's law which by the very least has been written on their hearts and in their consciences. They know by nature the difference between right and wrong. They are without excuse (Rom.1:20; 2:14,15).

Yes, all will be without excuse as they "know' God exists per their consciences and by general revelation in Creation!



God had given laws to Adam, and even more laws as time passed on.
--the law not to eat of the fruit of that tree.
--the law not to be angry.
--the law not to kill thy brother.
--the law to bring regular sacrifices of a specific kind to the Lord (which seemed to be carried on well after the Fall by the descendants of Adam.
--the law against polygamy--Lamech having two wives.
--the law against staying together instead of spreading abroad and populating the earth, and thus the condemnation of the tower of Babel and the confusion of languages.
--As far back as Genesis 7 "the heart of every man was evil continually." They rebelled against God, and God brought a flood upon them. They knew God's laws and rebelled against them anyway. The light of God had been made known to them. Noah preached 120 years to them.

God always judges sin.

God doesn't overlook sin.

Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity: wherefore lookest thou upon them that deal treacherously, and holdest thy tongue when the wicked devoureth the man that is more righteous than he? (Habakkuk 1:13)

And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead. (Acts 17:30-31)

That was the verse I had in mind!
Just was saying that God always knew the sins of man, but chose to fornad His "immediate" judgement upon their sins!



(Jamieson, Faucett and Brown.

--To overlook is not to condone or even ignore. It is to tolerate for this particular time, perhaps to delay the punishment thereof.

Verse 31 gives the evident context. There is a day coming when God will judge the world in righteousness. It is not apparent to them that their sin will not be judged, but it will; if not now, then certainly later.[/QUOTE]

 

[HankD]

Hello to all and thanks to those who responded to my post.

Rather than take each post and repond again, I'll leave it at that.

No is going to change thier minds.
My notes were just the more "reformed" interpretation of Romans Chapter 5. The whole chapter needs to be read and studied.

We can all agree that "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God".

Here is just one more observation:

If Levi being in the loins of Abraham paid tithes to Melkisedec, didn't you and I eat of the forbidden tree being in Adam's loins?

Hebrews 7

9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.
10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.​

HankD​

 

[Winman]

Original Sin is a theory. It is not proven by scripture. The fact is, that many dozens of theologians have argued and debated on what original sin is for centuries.

If anyone is truly interested in this ongoing debate, please google this excellent article on original sin and the many various theories on it.

Original Sin As Privation
An Inquiry into a Theology of Sin and Sanctification
by Leon O. Hynson

If anyone reads this detailed article on the origin and many various theories on Original Sin they will have to agree it is not even understood, much less proved by scriptures.

I think everyone should read this article before they label others heretics, or unknowledgeable. You will see for yourself that Original Sin is far from being established fact. The great theologians cannot agree on it.

 

[seekingthetruth]

Reformed?

HankD?

I am new here, and excuse me if I am wrong, but if Romans 5 is explained from a "reformed" prospective, then why do we need to bother to read it?

If you are one of the "elect" and i am one of the "unchosen", then what difference does it make? Why even bother to read the Bible if we are either "elect" or "not chosen"?

If I am not "predestined" and Jesus is going to reject my faith and trust no matter what, then what is the use of the Bible at all?

What a cruel joke God has played on us all by publishing this huge Bible for us to live by, and by promising eternal life to ALL that trust in Him?.

Church, the Bible, witnessing, evangelism, and the Great Commision are all a big waste of time if we have no choice. Even responding to your post is a waste of time if my destiny is already sealed before I even decide for myself.

If my fate is sealed by "election" and I cant do anything about either way, then why even try. According to "reformists", I can't avoid salvation if I am chosen, and I can't achieve salvation no matter how much I believe if I am not chosen.

Then why? Why are you on here? To rub it in the faces of those not chosen? To teach a gospel to people that you believe that will never be saved anyway?

Why do you even quote the Bible? If you are one of the "elect" anyway, then why do you need the Bible?

If you are completely sure that God chose you to go to heaven, even before you were born, then why bother with religion at all?......you already got it made?

John

 

[seekingthetruth]

Original Sin is a theory. It is not proven by scripture. The fact is, that many dozens of theologians have argued and debated on what original sin is for centuries.

If anyone is truly interested in this ongoing debate, please google this excellent article on original sin and the many various theories on it.

Original Sin As Privation
An Inquiry into a Theology of Sin and Sanctification
by Leon O. Hynson

If anyone reads this detailed article on the origin and many various theories on Original Sin they will have to agree it is not even understood, much less proved by scriptures.

I think everyone should read this article before they label others heretics, or unknowledgeable. You will see for yourself that Original Sin is far from being established fact. The great theologians cannot agree on it.

I didn't realize that Genesis 1 was just a theory.

How much of the rest of the Bible is just a theory?

How can I tell the truth from theory?

John

 

[Winman]

I didn't realize that Genesis 1 was just a theory.

How much of the rest of the Bible is just a theory?

How can I tell the truth from theory?

John

You need to study, the so-called fall occurs in Genesis 3.

And there is the problem, people who do not know scripture talking as if they were experts.

 

[percho]

The knowledge of good and evil did not cause them to sin, they sinned before they had this knowledge. The knowledge they acquired made them accountable, and thus they died.

Satan and the fallen angels did not have a sin nature, they were created perfect, and yet they sinned.

The cause of sin is our free will to obey or disobey, not our flesh that tempts us.

So God restricted this tree because he did not want them to have to be accountable? I personally believe Satan is the source of sin. We were made in weakness of flesh subject to deceit and temptation with the lust of the flesh.

James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

God did not temp them.

14. But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Satan played upon the lust in the created man and woman.

15. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Man was created in the image of God and he was created so that when Satan tempted him he would sin and die.

The purpose of God wasn't to save some and to send others to eternal punishment in hell fire. It was that through his created being he could destroy sin, death and him, the devil, Satan that had the power of death which is sin. Then man who was created in his image could be born again in the image of his only begotten (What ever that means.) Son Jesus the Christ.

 

[percho]

Hi winman,

Here is a thought.

Adam and Eve were also created perfect.
So I don't see the connection.

But it's an interesting observation because satan and his angels don't reproduce (yes, I know some people believe they can) so we can't observe their offspring to test your statement (don't know if I would want to observe them).

But I just can't get past Romans chapter 5 and especially 5:12 winman:

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:​

man = anthropos In this passage sin entered the world via Adam not satan. Adam is given position of progenitor of the human race.​

Note the key verbs in the passage they agree in tense, voice and mood.​

sin "entered" - past tense (Aorist active indicative).
death "passed" - past tense (Aorist active indicative).
all have "sinned" - past tense (Aorist active indicative).​

Scripturally speaking it seems to be saying that these things happened simultaneously.​

Were sin in humanity not timeless, not universal and unlearned then your proposition would be plausible.​

But we all sin without exception and that without having to learn how.​

The apple tree is still an apple tree even before it matures enough to bear fruit.​

HankD​

It entered through the lying deceit of Satan to the lust of the flesh. Satan knew what God was doing in creating man in the image of God. Satan and his demons want and wanted to be the sons of God and knew they never would be.
Hebrews 1:4,5 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? (the words this day are important here) And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

How did he inherit and just what is the more excellent name he inherited?

We, the universal church I might add are called heirs and joint heirs with Christ. Will we inherit this name also?

 

[jbh28]

If I am not "predestined" and Jesus is going to reject my faith and trust no matter what, then what is the use of the Bible at all?

That's not what Calvinist believe at all. No Calvinist(ok, maybe a few hypers would be an exception) would teach that God rejects someone's faith because they are not elect.

What a cruel joke God has played on us all by publishing this huge Bible for us to live by, and by promising eternal life to ALL that trust in Him?.

Calvinist believe all who believe will be saved.



The rest is purely ignorance of Calvinism. No need to comment on all of it. Read this article and it will help you understand what is really believed.
http://www.oldtruth.com/calvinism/avoidingconfusion.html

 

[seekingthetruth]

Forgive me Winman

You need to study, the so-called fall occurs in Genesis 3.

And there is the problem, people who do not know scripture talking as if they were experts.

I am not an expert, and clearly neither are you.


My bible knowledge is not as suspect as is my haste in responding.

I am aware of the chapter of the fall. I am also aware of where the story begins. If your only argument is that I may have misquoted a chapter, then you really don't have much of an argument at all.

And yes, I could use more study, just as you could use more understanding. Study will will never help you if you don't understand what you are studying.

How about posting some knowledge and facts with your "therories"

Do you feel better that you have corrected me?

John