Are We Born With Sin natures, or receive One When We First Choose To Sin?

[freeatlast]

I do not believe men have a sin nature, that is a word others use. I am only using it so that we can understand each other. I believe man is "flesh". The flesh has natural lusts and desires. These lusts and desires are not sinful, as the flesh has no will, it cannot decide to do good or evil. It is the soul/spirit of man that makes the decision process. If a man obeys the lust of the flesh when it is contrary to God's laws, at that point a man sins and becomes a sinner. He becomes sinful.

I do believe the flesh can become "accustomed" to sin. Accustomed means learned behavior or habit. No one is born a junky, and probably no person is a junky if they try heroin once. But if they continue to take heroin they can become addicted to it. So, a person becomes more and more corrupt as they practice sin. The more a person practices sin, the weaker they become in resisting sin.

And this is what God said in Gen 6:12

Gen 6:12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.

Look up the word "corrupt" in any dictionary. It means to go from a state of good to bad or evil. Leave a banana on the kitchen counter for a week or so and it will corrupt. It will go from a good banana to a rotten banana.

And this is what God says of men. They corrupted themselves. They went from a state of good to evil.

Psa 14:3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

This is the verse Paul was quoting in Romans. Notice that it says man has "become" filthy. Man did not start out filthy, but chose to sin and became depraved.

If you understand this, then Ecc 7:29 makes perfect sense.

Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

God did not make Adam and Eve sinful. They were flesh and had lusts and desires, but they also had free will and the ability to choose to do right or wrong. When they chose to do evil they "became" filthy. They became corrupt.

But this verse is not speaking of Adam and Eve only, but all men. "They" is plural and shows this verse applies to all men.

The problem is that Eve did not have any desire for the tree until an outside source deceived her and Adam is never said to have had any desire for it. In other words the desire that Eve experienced was not because of herself or even the tree. If it was then she would have had the desire all along, but it is clear she did not. Until the serpent tricked her into believing a lie she had no sinful desire. It is reasonable to conclude that without the serpent's lie she would have never desired and never ate. She did not eat out of some sin nature already present. She ate from volition because of deception. She evidently was completely content to obey the command with no inward desire for the tree, but ate because she was deceived.

 

[HankD]

The problem is that Eve did not have any desire for the tree until an outside source deceived her and Adam is never said to have had any desire for it. In other words the desire that Eve experienced was not because of herself or even the tree. If it was then she would have had the desire all along, but it is clear she did not. Until the serpent tricked her into believing a lie she had no sinful desire. It is reasonable to conclude that without the serpent's lie she would have never desired and never ate. She did not eat out of some sin nature already present. She ate from volition because of deception. She evidently was completely content to obey the command with no inward desire for the tree, but ate because she was deceived.

Hi FAL,

The question still remains, was human nature altered when death entered because of disobedience though it came through deception and an outside influence?

Did Adam and Eve then become the progenitors of the ability and/or the inclination to sin and pass it on to the adamic seed as Romans 5:12 seems to indicate?

As Levi paid tithes to Melchisedec in Abraham (Hebrews 7:9) are we all counted as sinners in Adam (Romans 5:12)?

Or do each and every one of us act out our own Eden apart from Adam and what we received from him?

HankD

 

[Winman]

The problem is that Eve did not have any desire for the tree until an outside source deceived her and Adam is never said to have had any desire for it. In other words the desire that Eve experienced was not because of herself or even the tree. If it was then she would have had the desire all along, but it is clear she did not. Until the serpent tricked her into believing a lie she had no sinful desire. It is reasonable to conclude that without the serpent's lie she would have never desired and never ate. She did not eat out of some sin nature already present. She ate from volition because of deception. She evidently was completely content to obey the command with no inward desire for the tree, but ate because she was deceived.

So what? Let me ask you a question, how does advertising work? You are watching TV and a Pizza Hut commercial comes on. They show a large steaming pizza loaded with pepperoni, onions, peppers, mushrooms... Man, I want a pizza right now!

Did that commercial have some sort of magical powers? Did it infuse lust into me? No, it simply excited my natural fleshly lusts that were already present in my flesh.

And this is what Satan did, he appealed to Eve's natural desires. He told her the tree would make her wise, she would be like God. This appealed to her pride, all men desire knowledge, wisdom, and greatness.

How did Satan tempt Jesus? Did he infuse hunger into Jesus? No, Jesus was naturally hungry because he had not eaten for 40 days. Satan simply suggested that Jesus turn a stone into bread. Satan is smart, he attacks our weaknesses.

One more time, God CANNOT be tempted. You can attempt to tempt God, but it will have no effect on him whatsoever. Eve could be tempted. Why? Because she was flesh and had lusts and desires that could be appealed to.

Why is this so mysterious to everyone? Every TV commercial you ever saw is an attempt to appeal to either the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, or the pride of life. Why does someone spend 60 grand on a BMW? It is true they are very well built cars, but most folks want a car like this because it appeals to their pride. They will look far more successful to their friends and really anyone who sees the car.

This is really not that complicated as many wish to make it.

 

[freeatlast]

Hi FAL,

The question still remains, was human nature altered when death entered because of disobedience though it came through deception and an outside influence?

Yes I believe it was.

Did Adam and Eve then become the progenitors of the ability and/or the inclination to sin and pass it on to the adamic seed as Romans 5:12 seems to indicate?

I think what they passed on was the deadness towards God with the nature to live to or please self (sinful nature)

As Levi paid tithes to Melchisedec in Abraham (Hebrews 7:9) are we all counted as sinners in Adam (Romans 5:12)?

There is no question that all who are in Adam are sinners, just like all who are in Christ are righteous.

Or do each and every one of us act out our own Eden apart from Adam and what we received from him?

That would be no. God has only made the statement "in the day you eat you will die" about one commandment and that was about the tree. The tree is gone and the sin cannot be replicated. That one command and sin of Adam is what caused the human race to be separated from God and one act of a righteous Man Christ Jesus causes us to be joined to Him. No person since Adam has ever caused their one lost condition as we are all born in sin. We are first Sinners by birth and then sinners by practice.

 

[freeatlast]

So what? Let me ask you a question, how does advertising work? You are watching TV and a Pizza Hut commercial comes on. They show a large steaming pizza loaded with pepperoni, onions, peppers, mushrooms... Man, I want a pizza right now!

Did that commercial have some sort of magical powers? Did it infuse lust into me? No, it simply excited my natural fleshly lusts that were already present in my flesh.

And this is what Satan did, he appealed to Eve's natural desires. He told her the tree would make her wise, she would be like God. This appealed to her pride, all men desire knowledge, wisdom, and greatness.

How did Satan tempt Jesus? Did he infuse hunger into Jesus? No, Jesus was naturally hungry because he had not eaten for 40 days. Satan simply suggested that Jesus turn a stone into bread. Satan is smart, he attacks our weaknesses.

One more time, God CANNOT be tempted. You can attempt to tempt God, but it will have no effect on him whatsoever. Eve could be tempted. Why? Because she was flesh and had lusts and desires that could be appealed to.

Why is this so mysterious to everyone? Every TV commercial you ever saw is an attempt to appeal to either the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, or the pride of life. Why does someone spend 60 grand on a BMW? It is true they are very well built cars, but most folks want a car like this because it appeals to their pride. They will look far more successful to their friends and really anyone who sees the car.

This is really not that complicated as many wish to make it.

[SIZE=+0]You are trying to compare natural desires against the commands of God. I have no command not to eat pizza nor did Eve. Both Adam and Eve could do what ever else they so desired as there was no other command against anything else. The one command with consequences was about a particular tree and like I said it is clear that she had no desire towards the tree prior to the serpents deception.

God's command not to eat did not excite her. She was, because of her creation, totally obedient if left alone. However she was deceived and ate.

I said it before. You are trying to come to a conclusion on this by using your current fallen fleshly desires as the example. Those desires are part of the result of Adam's sin not what God created. Adam brought on man the nature to disobey. The law now excites us to sin while lost, and obediance after salvation, but Adam and Eve did not have desires to disobey in their created state.

The sin of Adam was the result of volition, not a flaw in the creation. God did not create these two with sinful natures/tendencies that we have today. Adam's sin against God was also a sin against us all. We not only inherit the consequences of his sin, death, separation from God, but we inherit his heart, willful rebellion against God(a sin nature)as no one has ever been born with a heart for God. By the way which is put to death at the cross if we come to Christ. It is impossible to have two natures. We are not in a state of rebellion and a state of repentance at the same time. We either have a sin nature or a new nature. A nature of rebellion or a nature of submission. What we now wrestle against is the flesh not a sin nature as we are not still in rebllion.
[/SIZE]

 

[DHK]

You should be ashamed, now you sound like others who personally attack those who disagree with you.

I am not ashamed, and I did not personally attack you. Go back and read what you said:

Gen 3:6 proves Eve had what many call a "sin nature" before she sinned.

You claim that God created Eve with a sin nature!!
What is it? Did God lie when he pronounced all his creation "very good," meaning without sin, corruption, or defilement?
Or was he a failure in that he couldn't create a perfect creation? Which one, Winman? Please choose. Or do you still maintain that it was God that created a sinful Eve making God the first cause of sin?
--This is not a personal attack. I am trying to figure out your beliefs and why you would say that God would create Eve with a sin nature?????

I don't even like the term sin nature. I prefer the scriptural term "flesh". It is clear that Adam and Eve were created flesh and that Eve displayed the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life in Gen 3:6.

You may not like the term "trinity" either. Deal with it.
"Flesh" is a confusing term because it has many meanings depending on the context in which it is used. How much is your flesh worth on today's market? Want me to figure it out for you? You will have to send me some pertinent details first. j/k The fact is in our corrupted society today our actual "flesh" the elements that make up our body, has value. Flesh, at times in the Bible, is used in precisely that way. But not always.
Sometimes flesh is used in the sense that it includes the mind (whether it be regenerated or unregenerated).
Sometimes flesh is used as to indicate the body plus the soul, but does not include the Spirit. What did Jesus mean when he said "The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak." It wasn't the chemical compounds that make up the arms and legs that were weak. It was the soul/mind that was weak. The spirit (that aspect that communicates with God) was willing.
--Flesh is used in different contexts and only the context can define the meaning. Therefore "sin nature" is a more accurate term to use. Follow the Westminster Confession if you have trouble.

Satan can only suggest sin, he cannot compel. Adam and Eve sinned of their own free will. God cannot be tempted or sin, this proves Adam and Eve did not have God's nature.

Again, God lied (according to you) when he said he would make them in his own image and likeness.
They certainly didn't have God's nature physically. God is a spirit.
Jesus came in the flesh. He was tempted. Does that mean he had a sin nature. Please answer. You said he could not be tempted, but he was.

They were very good, they were absolutely sinless. It is not our nature that makes us sinful, it is our actions.

If they were very good why have you been accusing Eve as being created as a sinful being?
Adam and Eve were created in Innocence. They had their own choices to make. Adam chose to rebel without a sin nature. But in the curse that was brought upon all mankind was an inherited sin nature that we all receive.

Jesus came in the flesh and had the same nature as the seed of Abraham and was tempted in all points as we are, yet without sin.

Abraham had Adam's nature. He had a sin nature.
Jesus was born of a virgin, unlike Abraham. Being born of a virgin he escaped having a sin nature. If he had Adam's sin nature he would have been disqualified as being a sinless sacrifice for us. We are sinners both by birth and by action. Study out carefully Psalm 51:5. You haven't replied to me on that yet. The virgin birth is the only way he could avoid inheriting the sin nature.

No, a dog cannot be tempted to do wrong, because a dog cannot understand what right and wrong are. Dogs are not moral creatures, man is.

Can you tell a dog if it eats from the tree of knowledge of good and evil in that day it will surely die?

Adam and Eve were not animals. You sound like an evolutionist.

I am not an evolutionist. Save the above subject for another debate.

 

[Winman]

Hi FAL,

The question still remains, was human nature altered when death entered because of disobedience though it came through deception and an outside influence?

Yes I believe it was.

Did Adam and Eve then become the progenitors of the ability and/or the inclination to sin and pass it on to the adamic seed as Romans 5:12 seems to indicate?

I think what they passed on was the deadness towards God with the nature to live to or please self (sinful nature)

As Levi paid tithes to Melchisedec in Abraham (Hebrews 7:9) are we all counted as sinners in Adam (Romans 5:12)?

There is no question that all who are in Adam are sinners, just like all who are in Christ are righteous.

Or do each and every one of us act out our own Eden apart from Adam and what we received from him?

That would be no. God has only made the statement "in the day you eat you will die" about one commandment and that was about the tree. The tree is gone and the sin cannot be replicated. That one command and sin of Adam is what caused the human race to be separated from God and one act of a righteous Man Christ Jesus causes us to be joined to Him. No person since Adam has ever caused their one lost condition as we are all born in sin. We are first Sinners by birth and then sinners by practice.

There are only two changes that would affect a person physically or psychologically shown.

First, man would return to the dust. So, corruption was introduced, the body began to age and break down. Disease was introduced. Would this affect the will? I am sure it can.

The second is the knowledge of good and evil. This could simply mean that Adam and Eve now knew sin by experience and the downsides to sin. But I do believe there was more. I believe before the fall, Adam and Eve were very innocent and naive, much like little children. Sinful thoughts simply do not occur to them because they have no knowledge of sin. But once a person has experience and knowledge, I believe men have the ability to use their imaginations, they can INVENT evil. This to me is what Ecc 7:29 seems to say.

Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.


In previous threads, Skandelon has often asked who was the first person to think of molesting a child. That is an awful thing to think about, but he has a point. Someone, somewhere had to be the first to think of this awful sin. So, with the knowledge of good and evil I do believe man was enabled to imagine sin for the first time.

Nevertheless, having a sinful thought is not sin unless we act on it. If a sinful thought enters our mind and we immediately put it away from us, I do not believe that is sin. If we dwell on this sinful imagination and enjoy it, then I would say that has crossed over the threshold of sin. This is a very difficult area to distinguish.

But as to your question about bearing Adam's sin, God makes it perfectly clear in Ezekiel 18 (and elsewhere) that the son shall not bear the iniquity of his father.

Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I am not ashamed, and I did not personally attack you. Go back and read what you said:

You claim that God created Eve with a sin nature!!
What is it? Did God lie when he pronounced all his creation "very good," meaning without sin, corruption, or defilement?
Or was he a failure in that he couldn't create a perfect creation? Which one, Winman? Please choose. Or do you still maintain that it was God that created a sinful Eve making God the first cause of sin?
--This is not a personal attack. I am trying to figure out your beliefs and why you would say that God would create Eve with a sin nature?????

You may not like the term "trinity" either. Deal with it.
"Flesh" is a confusing term because it has many meanings depending on the context in which it is used. How much is your flesh worth on today's market? Want me to figure it out for you? You will have to send me some pertinent details first. j/k The fact is in our corrupted society today our actual "flesh" the elements that make up our body, has value. Flesh, at times in the Bible, is used in precisely that way. But not always.
Sometimes flesh is used in the sense that it includes the mind (whether it be regenerated or unregenerated).
Sometimes flesh is used as to indicate the body plus the soul, but does not include the Spirit. What did Jesus mean when he said "The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak." It wasn't the chemical compounds that make up the arms and legs that were weak. It was the soul/mind that was weak. The spirit (that aspect that communicates with God) was willing.
--Flesh is used in different contexts and only the context can define the meaning. Therefore "sin nature" is a more accurate term to use. Follow the Westminster Confession if you have trouble.

Again, God lied (according to you) when he said he would make them in his own image and likeness.
They certainly didn't have God's nature physically. God is a spirit.
Jesus came in the flesh. He was tempted. Does that mean he had a sin nature. Please answer. You said he could not be tempted, but he was.

If they were very good why have you been accusing Eve as being created as a sinful being?
Adam and Eve were created in Innocence. They had their own choices to make. Adam chose to rebel without a sin nature. But in the curse that was brought upon all mankind was an inherited sin nature that we all receive.

Abraham had Adam's nature. He had a sin nature.
Jesus was born of a virgin, unlike Abraham. Being born of a virgin he escaped having a sin nature. If he had Adam's sin nature he would have been disqualified as being a sinless sacrifice for us. We are sinners both by birth and by action. Study out carefully Psalm 51:5. You haven't replied to me on that yet. The virgin birth is the only way he could avoid inheriting the sin nature.

I am not an evolutionist. Save the above subject for another debate.

Here brother, you have nothing to be ashamed of!

Go with God...:thumbs:

 

[freeatlast]

There are only two changes that would affect a person physically or psychologically shown.

First, man would return to the dust. So, corruption was introduced, the body began to age and break down. Disease was introduced. Would this affect the will? I am sure it can.

The second is the knowledge of good and evil. This could simply mean that Adam and Eve now knew sin by experience and the downsides to sin. But I do believe there was more. I believe before the fall, Adam and Eve were very innocent and naive, much like little children. Sinful thoughts simply do not occur to them because they have no knowledge of sin. But once a person has experience and knowledge, I believe men have the ability to use their imaginations, they can INVENT evil. This to me is what Ecc 7:29 seems to say.

Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.


In previous threads, Skandelon has often asked who was the first person to think of molesting a child. That is an awful thing to think about, but he has a point. Someone, somewhere had to be the first to think of this awful sin. So, with the knowledge of good and evil I do believe man was enabled to imagine sin for the first time.

Nevertheless, having a sinful thought is not sin unless we act on it. If a sinful thought enters our mind and we immediately put it away from us, I do not believe that is sin. If we dwell on this sinful imagination and enjoy it, then I would say that has crossed over the threshold of sin. This is a very difficult area to distinguish.

But as to your question about bearing Adam's sin, God makes it perfectly clear in Ezekiel 18 (and elsewhere) that the son shall not bear the iniquity of his father.

Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

You are not getting it by quoting Eze 18:20 and taking it out of context. Tell me who does not die? Who is righteous and who is wicked? We are all born sinners because of one man's sin. And we can be born again righteous because of one Man's work on the cross.

 

[Winman]

You are not getting it by quoting Eze 18:20 and taking it out of context. Tell me who does not die? Who is righteous and who is wicked? We are all born sinners because of one man's sin. And we can be born again righteous because of one Man's work on the cross.

Eze 18 is speaking of spiritual death, not physical. Note God repeatedly speaks of men's souls. In verse 18 he says a wicked man shall die IN HIS INIQUITY. In vs. 24 he says if a righteous man turns and commits iniquity, in his sin that he hath sinned, IN THEM he shall die. In vs. 26 he again speaks of a righteous man turning and commiting iniquity, and dieth IN THEM. In vs. 27 he says if a wicked man turns to righteousness, HE SHALL SAVE HIS SOUL ALIVE. Then in vs. 30 God says he will JUDGE every one according to his ways.

This chapter is speaking of spiritual death and judgment, not physical death. Read carefully and see for yourself.

 

[DHK]

Eze 18 is speaking of spiritual death, not physical. Note God repeatedly speaks of men's souls. In verse 18 he says a wicked man shall die IN HIS INIQUITY. In vs. 24 he says if a righteous man turns and commits iniquity, in his sin that he hath sinned, IN THEM he shall die. In vs. 26 he again speaks of a righteous man turning and commiting iniquity, and dieth IN THEM. In vs. 27 he says if a wicked man turns to righteousness, HE SHALL SAVE HIS SOUL ALIVE. Then in vs. 30 God says he will JUDGE every one according to his ways.

This chapter is speaking of spiritual death and judgment, not physical death. Read carefully and see for yourself.

I read carefully; do you?

Two verses earlier, in verse 18 it says:

As for his father, because he cruelly oppressed, spoiled his brother by violence, and did that which is not good among his people, lo, even he shall die in his iniquity. (Ezekiel 18:18)
--This is civil law. The father will die if he cruelly oppresses and spoils his brother by violence. This is physical death by capital punishment. There is not a word here about spiritual death.

The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. (Ezekiel 18:20)
--As in verse 18 so it is in verse 20; the law of the land.
If you commit murder you also will die. Your son won't die for your sin (such as murder), but you will. The father won't bear the iniquity of the son. It is speaking of civil law. There is no spiritual death spoken of here.

 

[Winman]

Well commentators like JF&B and Matthew Henry agree with me, and disagree with you. In his introduction to this chapter, Henry said (snipped for brevity only)

... but this chapter, at first view, appears highly and nearly to concern us all, very highly, very nearly, for without reference to Judah and Jerusalem, it lays down the rule of judgment according to which God will deal with the children of men in determining them to their everlasting state...

Read for yourself, Matthew Henry (and JF&B) agree with my interpretation that this chapter is speaking of judgment and spiritual life or death, not civil law as you believe.

Check for yourself, I challenge you to do so.

 

[righteousdude2]

According to the Word, WE ARE ALL.....

.....DOA (dead on arrival). The only hope for this condition is salvation and our choice to accept it! :thumbs:

 

[percho]

The nature of man?

Is the flesh nature of the man Adam and up to and including ourselves and as to why he was created as such relative to the angels and Satan and his demons
being spirit beings? Why was Adam created as he was relative to verses as these? John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh,
Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels. Why?
for the suffering of death,
that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Heb 2:14 that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

Was this done by some type of hybrid 100% God 100% man or was it done by the man child of God which allowed this next verse to be made by the same Holy God?

Heb 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
That is said of the resurrected man child Jesus the Christ. It is how Satan will be ultimately destroyed.

Heb 2:13 I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

Is it not through the flesh made man who was the figure of him to come that God set about to destroy Satan and his works?

 

[Winman]

The nature of man?

Is the flesh nature of the man Adam and up to and including ourselves and as to why he was created as such relative to the angels and Satan and his demons
being spirit beings? Why was Adam created as he was relative to verses as these? John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh,
Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels. Why?
for the suffering of death,
that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Heb 2:14 that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

Was this done by some type of hybrid 100% God 100% man or was it done by the man child of God which allowed this next verse to be made by the same Holy God?

Heb 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
That is said of the resurrected man child Jesus the Christ. It is how Satan will be ultimately destroyed.

Heb 2:13 I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

Is it not through the flesh made man who was the figure of him to come that God set about to destroy Satan and his works?

Percho, I do not say this to be cruel, I read your posts all the time, but I never understand what you are trying to say. Try presenting a premise that is direct and easy to understand, then maybe a scripture or two to support it, and a brief explanation as to how these scriptures support what you are trying to say.

I don't know if others have the same difficulty as me, but I cannot understand your posts.

 

[Winman]

.....DOA (dead on arrival). The only hope for this condition is salvation and our choice to accept it! :thumbs:

Please show those scriptures that say we are born dead in sin, I would be very interested in seeing them.

 

[Winman]

You are not getting it by quoting Eze 18:20 and taking it out of context. Tell me who does not die? Who is righteous and who is wicked? We are all born sinners because of one man's sin. And we can be born again righteous because of one Man's work on the cross.

You are correct, we can be born again because of Jesus's work on the cross, but it is CONDITIONAL, we must believe.

This is your error in Romans 5:18, you are saying sin is unconditionally imputed to all men because of Adam (and this is the error), while the righteousness of Christ is imputed to us conditionally when we believe (this is correct)

You cannot say the first statement is unconditional, but the second is conditional as the words EVEN SO show both statements must be applied equally. They are either both unconditional, or they are both conditional.

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; EVEN SO by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

This verse is the conclusion of verses 12-17 as shown by the word "therefore". Please note Paul is not at all speaking of physical death, but judgment, condemnation, righteousness, and justification of life. Paul is speaking of spiritual death and life in this passage, not physical.

 

[freeatlast]

You are correct, we can be born again because of Jesus's work on the cross, but it is CONDITIONAL, we must believe.

This is your error in Romans 5:18, you are saying sin is unconditionally imputed to all men because of Adam (and this is the error), while the righteousness of Christ is imputed to us conditionally when we believe (this is correct)

You cannot say the first statement is unconditional, but the second is conditional as the words EVEN SO show both statements must be applied equally. They are either both unconditional, or they are both conditional.

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; EVEN SO by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

This verse is the conclusion of verses 12-17 as shown by the word "therefore". Please note Paul is not at all speaking of physical death, but judgment, condemnation, righteousness, and justification of life. Paul is speaking of spiritual death and life in this passage, not physical.

You said;
"You are correct, we can be born again because of Jesus's work on the cross, but it is CONDITIONAL, we must believe."

Let me say if this is what a person does they remain lost. Sadly this is what many are doing and being told they are saved. It takes repentance towards God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved.

As to Romans 5:18 the passage is dealing with who we are in. Adam or Christ. We are all born in Adam and so death is on all men and all became sinners, v.19.
Because of your bent to reject that we are born in sin you are missing what scripture says. In verse 17 it says:
For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

We all receive the results of Adam's deeds but we must make a choice to receive the results of Christ's deed. If you put all the passages together we see clearly that we all are born in sin and must be born again to escape the wrath to come.
We are born as sinners in Adam and we must be born again as righteous in Christ Jesus. One is thrust on us and the other is chosen.

 

[Winman]

Are you denying that it is conditional to be saved? A person must believe or trust in Christ to be saved, that is a condition.

So, I do not quite follow what you are saying.

As to our views, we will have to agree to disagree. But if you would like a good read on Romans 5, google Barnes Notes Romans 5. He discusses this passage in some detail, but it is simple and straightforward. He discusses verse 12 in particular. I think you will enjoy it.

 

[freeatlast]

Are you denying that it is conditional to be saved? A person must believe or trust in Christ to be saved, that is a condition.

So, I do not quite follow what you are saying.

As to our views, we will have to agree to disagree. But if you would like a good read on Romans 5, google Barnes Notes Romans 5. He discusses this passage in some detail, but it is simple and straightforward. He discusses verse 12 in particular. I think you will enjoy it.

I am saying what scripture says. It is conditional to being lost and conditional to being saved. The condition for being lost is being in the line of Adam. The condition for being saved is being in the line of Christ.
And no person is not saved by just believing or trusting. It takes repentance towards God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. We are born sinners,Romans 3:23