How Do baptists See/Define the Church of God?

[jbh28]

JBH....
you said;


we hear you say.....your assembly is still an assembly,when they are not assembled.

well, is that true? is your church(assembly) still considered a church(assembly) Monday morning when you are not together? Of course it is.

Most of this discussion is over a term. I believe we all believe that there are believers all over the world and we will all be together in the end. I use the term "church" as Christ used it in Matthew when he says he will build his church. You could say his assembly which will assemble in the last day.

 

[DHK]

well, is that true? is your church(assembly) still considered a church(assembly) Monday morning when you are not together? Of course it is.

And the company you and many others work for is still considered a company when it is closed during the weekend and on holidays, and after business hours. We are talking about the present, not the future.

Most of this discussion is over a term. I believe we all believe that there are believers all over the world and we will all be together in the end.

Someday. At another time; in another place; each of us having different bodies; in different circumstances, etc.

I use the term "church" as Christ used it in Matthew when he says he will build his church. You could say his assembly which will assemble in the last day.

Jesus was not using the word "assembly" (ekklesia) in a heavenly or spiritual sense, so you are not using it the way that Jesus was using it.

 

[Iconoclast]

well, is that true? is your church(assembly) still considered a church(assembly) Monday morning when you are not together? Of course it is.

Most of this discussion is over a term. I believe we all believe that there are believers all over the world and we will all be together in the end. I use the term "church" as Christ used it in Matthew when he says he will build his church. You could say his assembly which will assemble in the last day.

Yes...on the last day all saints will assemble,everyone for whom Jesus died to purchase.....

JBH........an un -assembled, assembly is not a church.....when the members ...assemble for worship, or service ,it is a church .

If 5 members get together at a softball game....no one will identify it as "the church"

 

[jbh28]

Irrelevant? How? You say you have posted Scripture that supports the universal church theory.

I have posted Scripture that uses the term "church" or "assembly" and it's not referring to one specific local assembly.

I said I haven't seen any Scripture posted that supports the universal church theory.

do you or do you not believe that there is a body of Christ that will assemble together in the last day? If you do, then you believe just as I do. I'm not going to waste my time or your time over a term.

He never mentioned their church? Wrong! he did. Yes the church was mentioned by name, singular because it was the church at Ephesus, and the teaching was applied specifically to the church at Ephesus. There is no such thing as "the entire church." You are reading into the passage your own theory instead of allowing the Scripture to speak for itself.

Remember, I didn't originally use this passage. I used the Ephesians passage and the one from Matthew.

God shed his blood for that assembly, the one at Ephesus. That is what it says. It goes directly contrary to what you want to believe, but that is what the Scripture says. You can't read into the Scriptures your own beliefs. Christ shed his blood for the Ephesian assembly. That is what Paul said and taught them. How else were the Ephesian elders to take Paul's words?

It has nothing to do with what I believe. We believe the same. you are just upset over the term that I use.

Your exact quote:

I don't know where you came up with that or why you said it.
But that is why I gave you the conclusions that I did.

Again, you are going after my term and not my believe(which is the same as yours.) That's why I said what I said. You answered that you do believe that all believers will assemble together, so we believe the same.

Someday the Antichrist and false prophet will enter onto the stage of the earth. So do you also conclude that we are now in the Tribulation. A future event does not cause a present event. Again, a logical breakdown.
There will be a universal church/assembly in heaven--when all believers will be able to assemble in one place together. That cannot happen now. It is not a present reality, it is a future event. In the present it should be evident that an unassembled assembly is an impossibility--the adjective contradicting the noun.

Of course. And are you a member of the universal church you just mentioned? Yes. You have been baptized(spirit) into that universal church/assembly that will meet together.

Let's take your last statement and state it using proper terminology.
Just because the universal assembly which cannot assemble will gather together in the end, doesn't mean we cannot call it an assembly that cannot assemble today.
It doesn't make sense.

Is your local assembly(church) still an assembly(church) on monday? Yes or no?


Ignoring the rest. You are being picky over a term and I don't want to waste my time or your time over a term. I want to play some Call of Duty.

I'm using the term as Jesus used it when he said he is building his church. I'm a member of that church. You are a member of that church Today, we see a manifestation of the universal church in the local church. Obviously, the universal church isn't meeting yet. We are only members of it(believers) and should be members of a local assembly(which I am and believe you are as well, only of another local assembly). both of us are members of the universal church and you and I will assemble together on day in heaven with Christ!

Jesus was not using the word "assembly" (ekklesia) in a heavenly or spiritual sense, so you are not using it the way that Jesus was using it.

Jesus wasn't using it as a specific local church. He was building his church which will assemble together in the last day. That's exactly how he was using it.

Again, not going to keep worrying about a term. It's silly.

 

[jbh28]

[/B]

Yes...on the last day all saints will assemble,everyone for whom Jesus died to purchase.....

JBH........an un -assembled, assembly is not a church.....when the members ...assemble for worship, or service ,it is a church .

If 5 members get together at a softball game....no one will identify it as "the church"

So is your local church a church today?(as in Tuesday night, assuming you are not meeting together right now)

 

[jbh28]

Universal vs local church

here's a nice article about the difference between the universal church and the local church.

http://www.gotquestions.org/universal-local-church.html

another one.
http://www.gotquestions.org/what-is-the-church.html

 

[Tom Butler]

DHK and Iconoclast have been doing a really good job in espousing the view which I share with them, so I've not contributed much. Here are some random observations:

Regarding Acts 20:28

Take heed therefore, unto yourselves, and all the flock, over which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to feed the church of God, over which he has made you overseers, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Let's take this apart.

The flock over which the Holy Spirit had made the elders overseers, is, of course, the local congregation at Ephesus.

Paul urged them to feed THE church of of God. The one over which the Holy Spirit had made them overseers. The local church. At Ephesus.

This is the same church which Jesus purchased with his own blood. THE church. At Ephesus.

Paul used this same description in his letter to the Ephesian when he used an analogy between a husbands love for his wife and Christ's love for the Church (5:25)

Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it

Not some universal invisible generic husband, but a real husband. And Christ loved THE church (Acts 20:28 feed THE church). Not some invisible entity, but a real specific church.
And Christ gave himself for it (Acts 20:28 purchased it with his own blood)

It is also worth nothing the Paul, in his first letter to the Corinthians used the same expression in his greeting

1:2 Unto THE church of God which is at Corinth.

This is the same congregation which Paul described as THE body of Christ.

12:28 Now YE are THE body of Christ....

This is the same body referred to in 12:13, a few verses earlier

In one spirit we are all baptized into THE BODY

This, by the way, is not Holy Spirit Baptism into the Universal Church. It is water baptism into the church at Corinth. The Greek en is more properly translated IN, rather than BY.

Otherwise,we have two different bodies in same chapter, in which Paul draws no distinction. The body in v.13 is the same body in v.28

And finally, when we use generic terms such as jury, family...and church, we understand that such terms have no meaning without expressing themselves in a real jury, a real family and a real, functioning, preaching, baptizing, worshiping, fellowshipping, evangelizing church.

Sorry for the partial post earlier. Hit the wrong button. This is now complete.

 

[Iconoclast]

So is your local church a church today?(as in Tuesday night, assuming you are not meeting together right now)

My local assembly is not an assembly today....they next assemble weds night at 7pm
jbh....I am an unassembled member.I am still a member of the Kingdom of God everyday.....I am a member who assembles at stated times when i am home.

the church is a specific identity that comes to gether for a specific purpose regulated by God's word.

JBH...could I just walk into your local church and take the pulpit and teach and say...I am a member of the church?

 

[jbh28]

My local assembly is not an assembly today....they next assemble weds night at 7pm

So you would say today you are not a member of a church? Based on what you just said, your church(assembly) doesn't exist today.

jbh....I am an unassembled member.I am still a member of the Kingdom of God everyday.....I am a member who assembles at stated times when i am home.

the church is a specific identity that comes to gether for a specific purpose regulated by God's word.

and the universal church will gather together with Christ in heaven.

JBH...could I just walk into your local church and take the pulpit and teach and say...I am a member of the church?

No, not sure what you are getting at with this?

 

[jbh28]

DHK and Iconoclast have been doing a really good job in espousing the view which I share with them, so I've not contributed much. Here are some random observations:

Regarding Acts 20:28


Let's take this apart.

The flock over which the Holy Spirit had made the elders overseers, is, of course, the local congregation at Ephesus.

Paul urged them to feed THE

so Tom, what church is Jesus building in Matthew 16:18?

 

[Tom Butler]

so Tom, what church is Jesus building in Matthew 16:18?

Again, sorry for the partial post.

Jesus is building the church he had already established at the beginning of his earthly ministry. He had already picked the first material of his church when he called the twelve disciples. he had ordained them (Mark3:14-15). He had given them marching orders. He sent out the seventy. They baptized. He gave them power over demons.

Jesus instructed them in church discipline (Matt 18:16).

By the day of Pentecost, the twelve had grown to at least 120.

By then it had the ordinances, it had a Head, and it had a commission to take the gospel beyond Israel to all the world.

Jesus was building a local congregation.

Ooh, it's late. I'm done for the night. See y'all tomorrow.

 

[David Lamb]

David,

[What word or phrase would you suggest to mean "every born-again sinner - everyone in the whole world who is truly 'in Christ'?"

David...I think of that as the kingdom of God.When the church is not assembled locally it is the kingdom of God in this world. At the end unbelievers and those who offend are seperated out of it.

Here is that description from matthew 13.Individual christians are living stones who as they assemble under the preaching of the word are the church.

We have this discussion from time to time.
Who are the pastors and deacons of the invisible church. Where does it minister? where does it meet? :wavey:

I hope you didn't read too much into my earlier post, Iconoclast. Your last paragraph seems to show that you may have done .

I am certainly not condoning the belief that says, "I belong to the universal church and that is all I need. I don 't see local church membership as important." (I have actually heard people say things like that when challenged about local church membership!) If you thought I was condoning such a belief, it seems to me that the term "universal church" must mean different things to different people. The baptist confessions of faith I have access to do use the phrase. For example:

1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith, Chapter 26, part 1:
The catholic or universal church, which (with respect to the internal work of the Spirit and truth of grace) may be called invisible, consists of the whole number of the elect, that have been, are, or shall be gathered into one, under Christ, the head thereof; and is the spouse, the body, the fulness of Him that filleth all in all.
Heb. 12:23; Col. 1:18; Eph. 1:10, 22-23; 5:23, 27, 32


"We Believe" - 1966 Baptist Affirmation of Faith:
The Nature of the Church
WE BELIEVE that the Universal Church is the innumerable company of God's elect in every age, who have been, are, or will be called out of the power of Satan to God, regenerated by the Holy Spirit, and redeemed from sin through the blood of Christ. This Church will endure to the end, and will be complete and perfect in the day of Christ.
Matt. 16.:18; John 17:24 Ephesians 3:14-15; Acts 2:47; 26:18; Eph. 5:25-27; Phil. 1:6; Col. 1:12-14; Hebrews 12:23; Rev. 7:9-17

It is the duty of all believers, walking in the fear of the Lord, to unite with local churches, for their own sanctification, and the maintenance of gospel witness.

Such churches, having the presence of Christ as head, are responsible to him for their own administra­tion, and in this respect are independent of every other form of control, whether of Church or State. They have the fulness of God, and to them is committed the stewardship of the Gospel, the defence of the truth, the discipline of disorderly members, the appointment of officers, and the administration of the ordinances.
Mat. 18:15-20; Eph. 1:22-23; Acts 13:1-4; 1 Cor. 5; 2 Thess. 3:6; 1 John 4:1; Rev. 2 and 3.
​

Thanks for your reply, and God bless you!

 

[Tom Butler]

As a practical matter, the local church is the vehicle through which the Great Commission is carried out. In fact, I can't think of a thing the so-called U-Church does to justify its existence.

 

[JesusFan]

As a practical matter, the local church is the vehicle through which the Great Commission is carried out. In fact, I can't think of a thing the so-called U-Church does to justify its existence.

except that God sees the believers as ALL united by the HS in the SAME Body/Bride of Christ, which we call the Church of God!

 

[DHK]

except that God sees the believers as ALL united by the HS in the SAME Body/Bride of Christ, which we call the Church of God!

Why do keep on with this rant, when we show you it is not Biblical. At least support it with Scripture.
1. All believers do belong to the Bride. No objection to calling all believers the Bride of Christ, the family of God, the Kingdom.
2. But they are not The Church. You have no Scriptural support for this.

 

[JesusFan]

Why do keep on with this rant, when we show you it is not Biblical. At least support it with Scripture.
1. All believers do belong to the Bride. No objection to calling all believers the Bride of Christ, the family of God, the Kingdom.

2. But they are not The Church. You have no Scriptural support for this.

the church is made up of ALL those who are elected in Christ, redeemed, dead and living...

per the Apostle paul...

God sees ONLY 1 Church/Bride/Body and those who are in there are placed there by the Holy Spirit once saved in/by Christ!

 

[Tom Butler]

except that God sees the believers as ALL united by the HS in the SAME Body/Bride of Christ, which we call the Church of God!

Except that we are not all united. We do profess a common faith, but then we head out in all directions. If we were united, everybody would be a Baptist.

Except that even we Baptists can't agree. If we were united, the Baptist Board would have no reason to exist. Well, maybe the Fellowship Forums would still be around.

The "Church" you advocate for, is fractured, divided, and filled with people who believe error at best, heresy at worst.

The Holy Spirit has obviously not guided all of us into all truth. (See John 16:13). And He definitely has not united all believers.

 

[Tom Butler]

I will repeat an earlier question. What does the Universal Church DO? What is its function?

Okay, that's two questions.

Okay, that's one question asked two different ways.

 

[JesusFan]

I will repeat an earlier question. What does the Universal Church DO? What is its function?

Okay, that's two questions.

Okay, that's one question asked two different ways.

It "purpose' is that it is the Body of Christ in heaven and upon the earth!

In heaven its the Assembly of the First Born, and here on earth it is scattered throughout local churches/denominations/lone ranger Christians etc!

 

[DHK]

the church is made up of ALL those who are elected in Christ, redeemed, dead and living...

You keep saying this, over and over and over again.
It is your opinion. You don't have any Scriptural basis for it.
If you believe it to be true then why not back it up with Scripture.