2 opposing questions:

Amyg

That is Youngs Literal translation....I get it from the www.biblegateway site.
It places the words in the order the greek text places the emphasis...it is not a smooth reading translation...but it is fairly accurate:wavey:
Amy..here is the whole chapter;

 

Another reason why I like the NKJV and NASB! :laugh:

 

Sorry, dude; you and Tom are both calvinists, and you appear to disagree with each other. Shouldn't you be making sure that the cals aren't confusing the non-cals with seemingly contradictory viewpoints?

 

Calvinists don't worry so much about the why of God's ways. They focus more on what He has done.

The primary concern of non-Calvinists is to reconcile God's ways with their own.

 

Reply to OP

Although not addressed to me, a non-Calvinist, I will present my answer to both questions.

God did create fallen mankind as "vessels of wrath" Ephesians 2:3. But no one was doomed from eternity, for no ones name was entered into the Lamb's book of life or not written either, before the foundation of the world, Revelation 13:8;17:8. God did choose to redeem us corporately before the foundation of the world(Ephesians 1:4) but He chooses us individually during our lifetime based on accepting our faith in the truth, 2 Thessalonians 2:13. God loves the world in this way, He gave His one of a kind Son, so that anyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life, and God did not limit our spiritual ability to the degree we cannot seek God and believe in Him, John 3:16.

Second question, why does God allow us to make autonomous choices which add to the pain, suffering and death of this world? The answer is that God created us to glory Him, and when we make an autonomous choice to repent from going our way to choosing to trust in God, we bring glory to God. Therefore, our ability to exercise our will autonomously from the will of God is necessary to fulfill God's purpose in creating us in the first place. Now for those of us who do not choose to trust in God, God provides, in the afterlife, perfect justice, which again demonstrates His love for us in that we receive no malice, but just punishment for our misdeeds.

 

I wish this were true, but in reality you avoid what God has done and follow close on the heels of John Calvin!

The primary concern of bible-believers is to exalt what God has done, not exalt one form of theology over another, like many Calvinists do.

We are to glory in the cross, not glory in the fact that somehow we are selected over those who do not believe.

 

Really? Look at the questions posed in this thread? They're all "why?"

Exactly. That's what I just said. Calvinists are more concerned with what God has done than with the why of what He has done.

Buddy, there's truth, and then there's error. You bet we'll exalt truth over error.

You have to know what the Cross is, to glory in it. But isn't the fact that you do better than nonbelievers your boast? No Calvinist boasts in himself.

 

He fails to see in his disdain for Calvinism that he is exalting his theology, whatever it is, over the truths of Calvinism.

 

the Gospel message is " real", preached and taken to ALL peoples. it just that ONLY the elect of God will be able to decide to receive jesus and be saved, rest falls upon "dead and deaf' ears!

 

Reply to Jesusfan

This assertion is false doctrine, Calvinism 101 and utterly unbiblical. 1 Corinthians 2:14-3:3 teaches men of flesh can understand the milk of the gospel. QED

Matthew 23:13 teaches that men of flesh were entering heaven, yet were turned aside by false teaching. Therefore both the doctrines of "total spiritual inability" and "irresistible grace" are unbiblical.

Matthew 13 teaches that some men have so hardened themselves they cannot understand the gospel, but other men receive the gospel with joy, yet are not regenerated, for they fall away when the going gets difficult.

Verse after verse after verse clearly demonstrates Calvinism is false doctrine, and all the Calvinists do is say "taint so." LOL

 

No, it teaches they cannot.

 

I agree with you that most cals would agree on this; but again, this is circular logic. In this explanation, "whosoever" doesn't mean "whosoever." It means, "whoever God has elected." So it still comes out to God saying, "whosoever believeth" but meaning "whosoever is elected." So one must reconcile why God would appear to be offering to all, but really meaning only those He's already chosen.

 

you shot your own theory out of the water as the author of the op is a calvinist :laugh:

 

I suspect you wouldn't know the primary concern of a real non-Calvinist, since the only one you've ever engaged is the one you have erected in your own mind. :type:

 

Hello Don,
Sometimes cals seem to disagree but usually it comes down to how a discussion or a post is worded. That is a limitation of this format...

in other words, in a face to face conversation if i mis-speak, or word something poorly the other person can stop me and offer correction....it takes twice as long on these threads to get it done.

Which post was it that we seem to differ on...let me see if i am off and need to re word my post?

Don....I believe with many who say they are non cals here...most of it could be settled with a few short bible studies.That is my belief....it might be somewhat optimistic but I have learned over time what Archangel posted to be true....that most disagreements are over a caricature...and not the real teaching.

 

Hey Don,

Don....the scripture teaches this group is one and the same.....

If you can get a non elect to believe the gospel go ahead and get all you can!

 

Depends on which Calvinist you are talking to. I think John 3:16 debunks some so-called "Calvinists" today who have "out-Calvined John Calvin" and tend toward "hyperism."

I think, as Calvin, that John 3:16 teaches, "that faith in Christ brings life to all, and that Christ brought life, because the Heavenly Father loves the human race, and wishes that they should not perish." Don't you?

 

...this coming from someone who on this very thread stated what he reads from the non cal side is science fiction. The passive aggressive approach of iconoclast continues.

Also, its mighty haughty to think you can undo countless hours of Bible study and prayer merely by sitting across a table with Bibles open over a "few short studies".