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Iconoclast

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What translation is that?

Amyg

That is Youngs Literal translation....I get it from the www.biblegateway site.
It places the words in the order the greek text places the emphasis...it is not a smooth reading translation...but it is fairly accurate:wavey:
Amy..here is the whole chapter;
John 3

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)



John 3

1And there was a man of the Pharisees, Nicodemus his name, a ruler of the Jews,

2this one came unto him by night, and said to him, `Rabbi, we have known that from God thou hast come -- a teacher, for no one these signs is able to do that thou dost, if God may not be with him.'

3Jesus answered and said to him, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God;'

4Nicodemus saith unto him, `How is a man able to be born, being old? is he able into the womb of his mother a second time to enter, and to be born?'

5Jesus answered, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born of water, and the Spirit, he is not able to enter into the reign of God;

6that which hath been born of the flesh is flesh, and that which hath been born of the Spirit is spirit.

7`Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above;

8the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.'

9Nicodemus answered and said to him, `How are these things able to happen?'

10Jesus answered and said to him, `Thou art the teacher of Israel -- and these things thou dost not know!

11`Verily, verily, I say to thee -- What we have known we speak, and what we have seen we testify, and our testimony ye do not receive;

12if the earthly things I said to you, and ye do not believe, how, if I shall say to you the heavenly things, will ye believe?

13and no one hath gone up to the heaven, except he who out of the heaven came down -- the Son of Man who is in the heaven.

14`And as Moses did lift up the serpent in the wilderness, so it behoveth the Son of Man to be lifted up,

15that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during,

16for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.

17For God did not send His Son to the world that he may judge the world, but that the world may be saved through him;

18he who is believing in him is not judged, but he who is not believing hath been judged already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19`And this is the judgment, that the light hath come to the world, and men did love the darkness rather than the light, for their works were evil;

20for every one who is doing wicked things hateth the light, and doth not come unto the light, that his works may not be detected;

21but he who is doing the truth doth come to the light, that his works may be manifested, that in God they are having been wrought.'

22After these things came Jesus and his disciples to the land of Judea, and there he did tarry with them, and was baptizing;

23and John was also baptizing in Aenon, nigh to Salem, because there were many waters there, and they were coming and were being baptized --

24for John was not yet cast into the prison --

25there arose then a question from the disciples of John with [some] Jews about purifying,

26and they came unto John, and said to him, `Rabbi, he who was with thee beyond the Jordan, to whom thou didst testify, lo, this one is baptizing, and all are coming unto him.'

27John answered and said, `A man is not able to receive anything, if it may not have been given him from the heaven;

28ye yourselves do testify to me that I said, I am not the Christ, but, that I am having been sent before him;

29he who is having the bride is bridegroom, and the friend of the bridegroom, who is standing and hearing him, with joy doth rejoice because of the voice of the bridegroom; this, then, my joy hath been fulfilled.

30`Him it behoveth to increase, and me to become less;

31he who from above is coming is above all; he who is from the earth, from the earth he is, and from the earth he speaketh; he who from the heaven is coming is above all.

32`And what he hath seen and heard this he doth testify, and his testimony none receiveth;

33he who is receiving his testimony did seal that God is true;

34for he whom God sent, the sayings of God he speaketh; for not by measure doth God give the Spirit;

35the Father doth love the Son, and all things hath given into his hand;

36he who is believing in the Son, hath life age-during; and he who is not believing the Son, shall not see life, but the wrath of God doth remain upon him.'


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Don

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DON....
Sure...because the bible teaches that.....jn6:44....romans3;10-12

Sorry, dude; you and Tom are both calvinists, and you appear to disagree with each other. Shouldn't you be making sure that the cals aren't confusing the non-cals with seemingly contradictory viewpoints?
 

12strings

Active Member
Sorry, dude; you and Tom are both calvinists, and you appear to disagree with each other. Shouldn't you be making sure that the cals aren't confusing the non-cals with seemingly contradictory viewpoints?

To clarify, I think that most Cals would agree (they can correct me if I'm mistaken) that "whosoever will may come", and that "whosoever believes in him has eternal life," ...but that apart from God's effectual calling, which was preceded by his election, No one would will to come, no one would believe.

...and can we all agree that "whosoever" is just a fancy way of saying "whoever."
 

Aaron

Member
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One could ask a Cal why God did not elect and regenerate everyone, and show his great mercy on sinners who would not have otherwise accepted him.
Calvinists don't worry so much about the why of God's ways. They focus more on what He has done.

The primary concern of non-Calvinists is to reconcile God's ways with their own.
 

Van

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Reply to OP

1. For the Cal: How do you reconcile God's love for sinners with the fact that He damns millions to hell who he has apparently created as "vessels of wrath" and who were doomed from eternity never to believe? In other words, does God love his plan of election more than he loves sinners?

2. For the non-cal: Why Doesn't God love us enough to overcome our free will and save us? If my son was running out into the street in front of a truck, I would call after him, preaching "repentance" and begging him to stop, but if he didn't, I would simply grab him and pull him back, against his will, because my love for his life is stronger than my love for allowing him to exercise his free will?
Does God love the idea of free will more than he loves sinners?

Although not addressed to me, a non-Calvinist, I will present my answer to both questions.

God did create fallen mankind as "vessels of wrath" Ephesians 2:3. But no one was doomed from eternity, for no ones name was entered into the Lamb's book of life or not written either, before the foundation of the world, Revelation 13:8;17:8. God did choose to redeem us corporately before the foundation of the world(Ephesians 1:4) but He chooses us individually during our lifetime based on accepting our faith in the truth, 2 Thessalonians 2:13. God loves the world in this way, He gave His one of a kind Son, so that anyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life, and God did not limit our spiritual ability to the degree we cannot seek God and believe in Him, John 3:16.

Second question, why does God allow us to make autonomous choices which add to the pain, suffering and death of this world? The answer is that God created us to glory Him, and when we make an autonomous choice to repent from going our way to choosing to trust in God, we bring glory to God. Therefore, our ability to exercise our will autonomously from the will of God is necessary to fulfill God's purpose in creating us in the first place. Now for those of us who do not choose to trust in God, God provides, in the afterlife, perfect justice, which again demonstrates His love for us in that we receive no malice, but just punishment for our misdeeds.
 

Robert Snow

New Member
Calvinists don't worry so much about the why of God's ways. They focus more on what He has done.

I wish this were true, but in reality you avoid what God has done and follow close on the heels of John Calvin!

The primary concern of non-Calvinists is to reconcile God's ways with their own.

The primary concern of bible-believers is to exalt what God has done, not exalt one form of theology over another, like many Calvinists do.

We are to glory in the cross, not glory in the fact that somehow we are selected over those who do not believe.
 

Aaron

Member
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I wish this were true . . .
Really? Look at the questions posed in this thread? They're all "why?"



The primary concern of bible-believers is to exalt what God has done,
Exactly. That's what I just said. Calvinists are more concerned with what God has done than with the why of what He has done.

not exalt one form of theology over another, like many Calvinists do.
Buddy, there's truth, and then there's error. You bet we'll exalt truth over error.

We are to glory in the cross, not glory in the fact that somehow we are selected over those who do not believe.
You have to know what the Cross is, to glory in it. But isn't the fact that you do better than nonbelievers your boast? No Calvinist boasts in himself.
 

preacher4truth

Active Member
Really? Look at the questions posed in this thread? They're all "why?"



Exactly. That's what I just said. Calvinists are more concerned with what God has done than with the why of what He has done.

Buddy, there's truth, and then there's error. You bet we'll exalt truth over error.

You have to know what the Cross is, to glory in it. But isn't the fact that you do better than nonbelievers your boast? No Calvinist boasts in himself.

He fails to see in his disdain for Calvinism that he is exalting his theology, whatever it is, over the truths of Calvinism.
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
To clarify, I think that most Cals would agree (they can correct me if I'm mistaken) that "whosoever will may come", and that "whosoever believes in him has eternal life," ...but that apart from God's effectual calling, which was preceded by his election, No one would will to come, no one would believe.

...and can we all agree that "whosoever" is just a fancy way of saying "whoever."


the Gospel message is " real", preached and taken to ALL peoples. it just that ONLY the elect of God will be able to decide to receive jesus and be saved, rest falls upon "dead and deaf' ears!
 

Van

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Reply to Jesusfan

the Gospel message is " real", preached and taken to ALL peoples. it just that ONLY the elect of God will be able to decide to receive jesus and be saved, rest falls upon "dead and deaf' ears!

This assertion is false doctrine, Calvinism 101 and utterly unbiblical. 1 Corinthians 2:14-3:3 teaches men of flesh can understand the milk of the gospel. QED

Matthew 23:13 teaches that men of flesh were entering heaven, yet were turned aside by false teaching. Therefore both the doctrines of "total spiritual inability" and "irresistible grace" are unbiblical.

Matthew 13 teaches that some men have so hardened themselves they cannot understand the gospel, but other men receive the gospel with joy, yet are not regenerated, for they fall away when the going gets difficult.

Verse after verse after verse clearly demonstrates Calvinism is false doctrine, and all the Calvinists do is say "taint so." LOL
 

Don

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To clarify, I think that most Cals would agree (they can correct me if I'm mistaken) that "whosoever will may come", and that "whosoever believes in him has eternal life," ...but that apart from God's effectual calling, which was preceded by his election, No one would will to come, no one would believe.
I agree with you that most cals would agree on this; but again, this is circular logic. In this explanation, "whosoever" doesn't mean "whosoever." It means, "whoever God has elected." So it still comes out to God saying, "whosoever believeth" but meaning "whosoever is elected." So one must reconcile why God would appear to be offering to all, but really meaning only those He's already chosen.
 
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12strings

Active Member
This may be a case where a single verse simply cannot be interpreted without the rest of Scripture. If you take John 3:16 all by itself, phrase by phrase, without taking other scriptures into account, you could interpret it any number of ways:

"For God so loved the world...
-Who is God?
-Which god?
-What does he mean by "the world"? People in the world, the whole of physical creation?

"that he gave his only begotten son..."
-are we to understand begotten in the normal sense or do other scriptures give us reason to think that maybe God the father did not give birth to God the son?

"that whosoever believeth in him..."
-who is the whosoever (obviously from this verse those who believe in him.
-What does it mean to believe? are all who believe saved? what about the demons who believe?

"should not perish but have everlasting life."
-what kind of death is this talking about?
-Does this mean i can live forever in this life and not die...it sounds like it?


Regarding all of the "whosoever" arguments. I don't think they prove the point for either cals or non-cals. Even in Revelation, "whosoever will, let him come" obviously excludes fallen angels, or it would violate James 2:19.

So already, the arminian would have to admit that they are qualifying "whosoever" so that it does not, in fact, mean "whosoever"... it means "whosoever is a human being, not a demon" may come.
 

Skandelon

<b>Moderator</b>
Calvinists don't worry so much about the why of God's ways. They focus more on what He has done.

The primary concern of non-Calvinists is to reconcile God's ways with their own.

I suspect you wouldn't know the primary concern of a real non-Calvinist, since the only one you've ever engaged is the one you have erected in your own mind. :type:
 

Iconoclast

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Sorry, dude; you and Tom are both calvinists, and you appear to disagree with each other. Shouldn't you be making sure that the cals aren't confusing the non-cals with seemingly contradictory viewpoints?

Hello Don,
Sometimes cals seem to disagree but usually it comes down to how a discussion or a post is worded. That is a limitation of this format...

in other words, in a face to face conversation if i mis-speak, or word something poorly the other person can stop me and offer correction....it takes twice as long on these threads to get it done.

Which post was it that we seem to differ on...let me see if i am off and need to re word my post?

Don....I believe with many who say they are non cals here...most of it could be settled with a few short bible studies.That is my belief....it might be somewhat optimistic but I have learned over time what Archangel posted to be true....that most disagreements are over a caricature...and not the real teaching.
 

Iconoclast

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I agree with you that most cals would agree on this; but again, this is circular logic. In this explanation, "whosoever" doesn't mean "whosoever." It means, "whoever God has elected." So it still comes out to God saying, "whosoever believeth" but meaning "whosoever is elected." So one must reconcile why God would appear to be offering to all, but really meaning only those He's already chosen.

Hey Don,

In this explanation, "whosoever" doesn't mean "whosoever." It means, "whoever God has elected." So it still comes out to God saying, "whosoever believeth" but meaning "whosoever is elected.

Don....the scripture teaches this group is one and the same.....

If you can get a non elect to believe the gospel go ahead and get all you can!
 

Skandelon

<b>Moderator</b>
Regarding all of the "whosoever" arguments. I don't think they prove the point for either cals or non-cals.

Depends on which Calvinist you are talking to. I think John 3:16 debunks some so-called "Calvinists" today who have "out-Calvined John Calvin" and tend toward "hyperism."

I think, as Calvin, that John 3:16 teaches, "that faith in Christ brings life to all, and that Christ brought life, because the Heavenly Father loves the human race, and wishes that they should not perish." Don't you?
 

webdog

Active Member
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Hello Don,
Sometimes cals seem to disagree but usually it comes down to how a discussion or a post is worded. That is a limitation of this format...

in other words, in a face to face conversation if i mis-speak, or word something poorly the other person can stop me and offer correction....it takes twice as long on these threads to get it done.

Which post was it that we seem to differ on...let me see if i am off and need to re word my post?

Don....I believe with many who say they are non cals here...most of it could be settled with a few short bible studies.That is my belief....it might be somewhat optimistic but I have learned over time what Archangel posted to be true....that most disagreements are over a caricature...and not the real teaching.

...this coming from someone who on this very thread stated what he reads from the non cal side is science fiction. The passive aggressive approach of iconoclast continues.

Also, its mighty haughty to think you can undo countless hours of Bible study and prayer merely by sitting across a table with Bibles open over a "few short studies".
 
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