Election Keeps No One Out Of Heaven

[The Archangel]

In the "2 Opposing Questions" thread, I referenced this article by Mark Altrogge.

Here is a link to the article at the blog "The Blazing Center"

http://www.theblazingcenter.com/2011/09/election-keeps-no-one-out-of-heaven.html

It is an excellent article and an excellent articulation of a common and wide-spread misconception about election.

I'm sure many will agree and many will disagree. Please voice such agreements or disagreements below.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[psalms109:31]

After Christ

I am sorry i do not see any man worthy to be pulled away from the crowd. We are all dead to a point that God has turned His back on us.

That the only one worthy is Jesus for salvation, that He is the mediator between the dead and God.

Today is the day where the dead will hear His voice. Only in Christ are we chosen or worthy, apart from Christ we are nothing. We are worthy of the eternal fire.

 

[jbh28]

Election Keeps No One Out Of Heaven

It seems that most that argue against election believe that to be so. That's why you hear chants of "whosoever" "whosoever." Of course whosoever believes will be saved. Election is not about keeping people out of heaven.

 

[JesusFan]

Election Keeps No One Out Of Heaven

It seems that most that argue against election believe that to be so. That's why you hear chants of "whosoever" "whosoever." Of course whosoever believes will be saved. Election is not about keeping people out of heaven.

What the non cals here refuse to see from the bible is though while it is indeed true that "whosoever: wills to come to jesus can and well get saved, due to our sinfulness/depravity, ONLY those whom God has enable to come to Jesus will even will for it to happen!

 

[psalms109:31]

John 5:
24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. 25 Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.

John 6:63
The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.

1 Corinthians 3:16
Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in your midst?

2 Corinthians 5:16
So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer.
17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come:[ Or Christ, that person is a new creation.] The old has gone, the new is here! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God.

 

[quantumfaith]

What the non cals here refuse to see from the bible is though while it is indeed true that "whosoever: wills to come to jesus can and well get saved, due to our sinfulness/depravity, ONLY those whom God has enable to come to Jesus will even will for it to happen!

And the circle of election continues, this is reminiscent of the oscillatory nature of the Sin x and Cos x graphs.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

In the "2 Opposing Questions" thread, I referenced this article by Mark Altrogge.

Here is a link to the article at the blog "The Blazing Center"

http://www.theblazingcenter.com/2011/09/election-keeps-no-one-out-of-heaven.html

It is an excellent article and an excellent articulation of a common and wide-spread misconception about election.

I'm sure many will agree and many will disagree. Please voice such agreements or disagreements below.

Blessings,

The Archangel

I like this explaination Archangel ....thanks. Ive FWD it to several loved ones. BTW, this is how I see things.... note the signature below :thumbs:

 

[Winman]

It's a play on words as many Calvinist arguments are. Only the very simple are fooled.

Of course election keeps no one out of heaven, as the elect will be irresistably regenerated and desire to be saved.

This does not negate that Calvinism believes God passes by many men and has not elected them to salvation.

You are left no other conclusion than God desires many men perish, else he would have elected them.

You are correct, election keeps no one out of heaven, but non-election does.

Of course, the Calvinist will say the unelect do not desire to go to heaven. This is so utterly false as to be absurd, I have never met anyone who did not want to go to heaven.

 

[Iconoclast]

Election is a blessing unto God's people....
http://www.founders.org/library/dagg_vol1/bk7c4.html#sec1

It is full of comfort and grace to we who believe. Thanks for posting the link.

 

[Don]

Election is....full of comfort and grace to we who believe. Thanks for posting the link.

I'm not comforted by the thought that I was elected to be saved. I'm comforted by the thought that I am saved.

 

[webdog]

I'm not comforted by the thought that I was elected to be saved. I'm comforted by the thought that I am saved.

Well said!

 

[StefanM]

Election is a blessing unto God's people....
http://www.founders.org/library/dagg_vol1/bk7c4.html#sec1

It is full of comfort and grace to we who believe. Thanks for posting the link.

On the contrary...it can also make a person neurotic in doubting one's salvation. Why? ....here's why: how can a person be absolutely certain that he/she is elect? How can you know you are not being deceived?

Bottom line--it comes down to experiential elements. You believe you are genuinely saved because of evidence of sanctification...just like Arminians/non-Calvinists.

Unconditional election only brings comfort if you have absolute certainty that you are elect.

 

[Iconoclast]

I'm not comforted by the thought that I was elected to be saved. I'm comforted by the thought that I am saved.

I am comforted knowing that God elected me before the world was,and came into the creation to die for me as the elect Servant of The Lord.
I am comforted that there would be no salvation if not for the Decreed purpose of God being unfolded in time.

17Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:

18That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:

19Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;

20Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

7In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

8Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

9Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

10That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

 

[Winman]

Election is a blessing unto God's people....
http://www.founders.org/library/dagg_vol1/bk7c4.html#sec1

It is full of comfort and grace to we who believe. Thanks for posting the link.

That article is unscriptural. It is not a mystery why and whom God has chosen. In 1 Cor 2:26-29 the scriptures say God has chosen the foolish to confound the wise, the weak to confound the mighty, he has chosen those who are base and despised, that no flesh should glory in his presence. In Jam 2:5 the scriptures say God has chosen the poor of this world rich in faith.

This teaching that whom and why they are elected is a mystery is false and unscriptural.

 

[StefanM]

Here's the fundamental problem with the article:

Election isn't the problem--it's the limited scope of election combined with the reason the election was necessary.

The $64,000 Question: Who caused sin?

You really can't go back to Adam and Eve here--Satan already had fallen at that time. Satan tempted Eve; Eve tempted Adam. The question is this--why did Satan fall? After all, angels are created in a perfect state, dwelled in the very presence of the Almighty in his glory, and yet they fell. The first one to fall, however, would not have been tempted by anyone who was already sinful.

A person who believes in libertarian freedom believes that the fall could originate through an (unwise) act of the will, uncaused by another agent.

A person who is a determinist or a compatibilist has really no logical choice but to place the ultimate responsibility for sin on God. Of course, this argument is untenable, so individuals try to take a compatibilist route out by denying that God would be responsible for sin even if he created the circumstances that directly cause it. (This is different from creating the possibility of sin [even if foreknown] under a libertarian system because the moral agent would ultimately make the choice to sin without being caused to do so by an external agent.)


The problem with Calvinistic election is that it involves reprobation irrevocably caused by God (at least supralapsarians are consistent here) but blamed on humanity. It's one thing for God to save some. It's another thing for God to cause the fall of all (not permit) then only save some.

Election keeps no one out of heaven in the Calvinistic system, but reprobation (Election's ugly sister) sure does.

 

[Iconoclast]

On the contrary...it can also make a person neurotic in doubting one's salvation. Why? ....here's why: how can a person be absolutely certain that he/she is elect? How can you know you are not being deceived?

Bottom line--it comes down to experiential elements. You believe you are genuinely saved because of evidence of sanctification...just like Arminians/non-Calvinists.

Unconditional election only brings comfort if you have absolute certainty that you are elect.

Stefanm
God's work is certain....our relationship to it is what you are speaking about..see how Peter explains it here;
[QUOTE2 Peter 1

1Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

2Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,

3According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

4Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

5And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

6And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

7And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

8For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

10Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
11For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

12Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth.
][/QUOTE]

5Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
6But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

7Now I pray to God that ye do no evil; not that we should appear approved, but that ye should do that which is honest, though we be as reprobates.

Stefanm.....Our enjoyment subjectively of what is called "assurance of salvation" can fluctuate with our obedience or lack of it,
To have a scriptural assurance of our calling and election demands that we have the scriptural marks of such assurance.If we have the Spirit of God in us, he will be at work in us...to will and to do of His good pleasure,

Many false professors keep re-dedicating themselves because they are drifting away from their false profession. When God really gets a hold of someone they are busy seeking and serving Him .

Most calvinists i know are concerned with pleasing God in all that they do. They know that the elect all will persevere. Any declenscion is examined in earnest. True faith works,,it is not passive.


not everyone is going to heaven..the doctrine does not keep them out ..sin does

 

[Winman]

Iconoclast, have you ever heard of EVANESCENT GRACE?

Calvin taught that God can give men a false faith that is indistinguishable from true saving faith.

You can try to prove to yourself you have faith all you want, according to Calvin you could be deceived.

And Calvin taught this deception comes from God himself.

Look it up.

It is impossible to have real assurance of salvation if you truly believe Calvin's doctrine.

 

[Iconoclast]

Iconoclast, have you ever heard of EVANESCENT GRACE?

Calvin taught that God can give men a false faith that is indistinguishable from true saving faith.

You can try to prove to yourself you have faith all you want, according to Calvin you could be deceived.

And Calvin taught this deception comes from God himself.

Look it up.

It is impossible to have real assurance of salvation if you truly believe Calvin's doctrine.

Winman.....thanks ...but 2pet 1 is clear.....the fact that we are commanded to make our calling and election sure.....shows it is possible and preferable to have a true assurance of faith.... It also shows the fact of election I have not read calvin on this...I do not check in with him that often..
The teaching I believe comes from the word. If Calvin saw what I see or more..thats fine with me. I know he was very solid biblically.I would have to see this "quote" in context to see if and how he viewed this issue.

And Calvin taught this deception comes from God himself.

scripture speaks using this type of language sometimes;

11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Iconoclast]

That article is unscriptural. It is not a mystery why and whom God has chosen. In 1 Cor 2:26-29 the scriptures say God has chosen the foolish to confound the wise, the weak to confound the mighty, he has chosen those who are base and despised, that no flesh should glory in his presence. In Jam 2:5 the scriptures say God has chosen the poor of this world rich in faith.

This teaching that whom and why they are elected is a mystery is false and unscriptural.

What is unscriptural is you are suggesting God elected people based on who or what they were ,or according to something in them that distinguished them from others , when the scripture is clear that God does not work that way.
You along with Van...completely mis-understand these verses.

PS. Dagg is completely scriptural and you cannot even begin to refute his work here,

 

[Iconoclast]

Here's the fundamental problem with the article:

Election isn't the problem--it's the limited scope of election combined with the reason the election was necessary.

The $64,000 Question: Who caused sin?

You really can't go back to Adam and Eve here--Satan already had fallen at that time. Satan tempted Eve; Eve tempted Adam. The question is this--why did Satan fall? After all, angels are created in a perfect state, dwelled in the very presence of the Almighty in his glory, and yet they fell. The first one to fall, however, would not have been tempted by anyone who was already sinful.

A person who believes in libertarian freedom believes that the fall could originate through an (unwise) act of the will, uncaused by another agent.

A person who is a determinist or a compatibilist has really no logical choice but to place the ultimate responsibility for sin on God. Of course, this argument is untenable, so individuals try to take a compatibilist route out by denying that God would be responsible for sin even if he created the circumstances that directly cause it. (This is different from creating the possibility of sin [even if foreknown] under a libertarian system because the moral agent would ultimately make the choice to sin without being caused to do so by an external agent.)


The problem with Calvinistic election is that it involves reprobation irrevocably caused by God (at least supralapsarians are consistent here) but blamed on humanity. It's one thing for God to save some. It's another thing for God to cause the fall of all (not permit) then only save some.

Election keeps no one out of heaven in the Calvinistic system, but reprobation (Election's ugly sister) sure does.

This is ungodly thought that Paul anticipated and refuted in Romans 9. Romans 9 makes no sense unless God's election is just as the calvinist understands it.
God does not sin or cause sin, the scripture is clear on this as is every calvinistic confession.