Election Keeps No One Out Of Heaven

[quantumfaith]

If they(non-elect) were passed over the same way God chose His elect(before the foundation of the world), then how does the cross have any effect on the non-elect whatsoever??? They were born in an alredy condemned state(reprobation) not having done anything good or evil. So, in fact, the cross would have no effect on their condition, considering God actively passed over them, and left them in their already fallen state.



Actually, rejecting Jesus would be a moot point. They were already born in their condemned state, and God chose to pass over them before they had even taken their first breath. In y'alls stance, they have already rejected Christ(from the moment of birth, no less), and weren't even aware of it.




Now, I agree that everyone who truly wants to be saved, will be saved. Not one lost person, who calls out from the depths of a broken heart will be cast aside. We are in agreement here. The only ones who die lost are those who choose to reject Christ, those who will not humble theirselves under His tender hand of mercy, who want to live their life their way, IOW, thos who reject His calling to them.

Now Brother, please do not take this post as me being hateful or a smart aleck. I did not intend for it to come across that way. May God bless you, and your whole family!!!!

Spot on brother.

Their error is never ceasing. Calvin and Beza have done MUCH damage. Proof-texting kings they are, and thus their followers.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Spot on brother.

Their error is never ceasing. Calvin and Beza have done MUCH damage. Proof-texting kings they are, and thus their followers.

Oh really! You feel qualified to make this kind of statement do you? Thank God some of my brothers finally see the light. No more waisting time & spinning wheels.:applause::applause::applause:

 

[preacher4truth]

Oh really! You feel qualified to make this kind of statement do you? Thank God some of my brothers finally see the light. No more waisting time & spinning wheels.:applause::applause::applause:

Oh, the highest form of flattery to mimic me. Yet his statement and rebuttal is unsubstantiated nonsense. Perhaps he'll find a proof-text to "support" his fallacy! :laugh:

 

[quantumfaith]

Oh, the highest form of flattery to mimic me. Yet his statement and rebuttal is unsubstantiated nonsense. Perhaps he'll find a proof-text to "support" his fallacy! :laugh:

Once again, your interpretation is not entirely accurate.

 

[12strings]

Now, I agree that everyone who truly wants to be saved, will be saved. Not one lost person, who calls out from the depths of a broken heart will be cast aside. We are in agreement here. The only ones who die lost are those who choose to reject Christ, those who will not humble theirselves under His tender hand of mercy, who want to live their life their way, IOW, thos who reject His calling to them.

I hate bring this up again, but just so you can clarify your position, are you saying that those who never hear about Christ (and so don't reject him) are saved?

 

[preacher4truth]

I hate bring this up again, but just so you can clarify your position, are you saying that those who never hear about Christ (and so don't reject him) are saved?

They're already lost, condemned, and on way to hell prior to rejection of Christ.

 

[Iconoclast]

It's not ungodly thought. There are other ways to interpret Romans 9 that do not make God the author of sin, which is exactly what Calvinism does, despite protests to the contrary.

No....your misunderstanding of the teaching leads you to that conclusion.
No calvinist believes or teaches that God is the author of sin.

1._____ God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree.
( Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18; James 1:13; 1 John 1:5; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5 )

You see clearly how it is stated in the confession ,so you re-define it wrongly to state your claim.:thumbs:

 

[Iconoclast]

You appear to put more confidence in the reformers than you do in the plain teaching of the Word of God. This is all to common with Calvinism.

RS,
I am confident that God has always given pastors and teachers to His church,and i take care to sort through the teaching comparing it to scripture.

Anyone who makes this objection is either
1] uninformed

2]proud in spirit

3] ignorant of divine truth

4] too lazy to read and search out truth

No one here on the BB needs to re-invent the wheel. It sounds so spiritual to say....I just put my confidence in[in the plain teaching of the Word of God]

Evidently it is not plain to all or this would be the doctrines of grace board.

This statement is made as if the reformers never looked at"the plain teaching" of the word of God. As if they just made up any idea that came along.

Any reading of any of these men shows that they were word driven,and put the scriptures first.
You like many in here...just want to resist truth from scripture without offering any verses to support your wrong ideas.
When you make your false statements against calvinists and calvinism ...with no discussion or any counter -position it just strengthens the resolve of those who study.

 

[Van]

It is true, the Biblical Doctrine of Election keeps no one out of heaven. In fact Election is what puts people into heaven.

So why the misconception? The answer is in the Calvinist doctrine of pre-temporal individual election for salvation. This mistaken view creates the impression that God keeps folks out of heaven because unless a person was elected, they cannot seek God and believe in Him. Arminians try to address this issue by inventing prevenient grace which allows all men to seek God and believe in Him. But this too is not biblical.

The Bible is clear, God corporately chose "us" the redeemed before the foundation of the world, and individually chose "us" the redeemed during our lifetime based on God's acceptance of our faith in Christ.

God Bless

 

[Iconoclast]

Could God have saved everyone if he chose to? Of course. The cross was sufficient for all. So there goes that argument. You are in the same boat.
Rejection of Christ and sin.
Well, you need to get out more. But really, we teach that no non-elect person will want to come to Christ and be saved.

JBH28

If you look at Winmans objection ...at the heart of it he denies the goodness and wisdom of God.
All of these objectors speak boldly as if God has to do what they think...rather than what God in all His Holy Wisdom has purposed to do,and is accomplishing as we speak.
Each objection against election is a rejection of God's Divine attributes.
They all will deny it when put to them this way....nevertheless it is so!
That is how Paul answered every objection in Romans 9
[QUOTE19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?][/QUOTE]

Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

[QUOTE21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?][/QUOTE]


Most every BB objector fails the romans 9 quiz Paul has given:type::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbs:

 

[12strings]

The answer is in the Calvinist doctrine of pre-temporal individual election for salvation. This mistaken view creates the impression that God keeps folks out of heaven because unless a person was elected, they cannot seek God and believe in Him. Arminians try to address this issue by inventing prevenient grace which allows all men to seek God and believe in Him. But this too is not biblical.

The Bible is clear, God corporately chose "us" the redeemed before the foundation of the world, and individually chose "us" the redeemed during our lifetime based on God's acceptance of our faith in Christ.

So to clarify Van, are you saying the following:

1. Our Election is based on our faith in Christ, which is a choice any sinner can make apart from any Holy Spirit drawing.

2. That Arminians are in error not becuase they value free will too much, but because they do not value free will enough, and so feel the need to say that God's grace was involved in drawing sinners?

 

[Iconoclast]

Willis,

Brother, with all due respect, Romans 9 is talking about the Israelites and Gentiles. God hardened their(Israellites) hearts due to continual rebellion towards Him, and He then turned to us, the Gentiles.

Willis ....Paul uses national Israel and their apostasy as a backdrop to explain why and how gentiles are coming into the body of Christ in droves.
It is not just speaking of nations however...but clearly individuals who come in one person at a time, living stones being added to the NT church.

If they(non-elect) were passed over the same way God chose His elect(before the foundation of the world), then how does the cross have any effect on the non-elect whatsoever???

The cross rejected seals the doom of any who reject it. Any and all sin has already condemned them. Any who come to the cross will be saved as we know.
Many have lived and died without the any knowledge of the cross and will eternally suffer for it.

 

[jbh28]

Now Brother, please do not take this post as me being hateful or a smart aleck. I did not intend for it to come across that way. May God bless you, and your whole family!!!!

Thanks. I've have my first child coming in February btw!

If they(non-elect) were passed over the same way God chose His elect(before the foundation of the world), then how does the cross have any effect on the non-elect whatsoever??? They were born in an alredy condemned state(reprobation) not having done anything good or evil. So, in fact, the cross would have no effect on their condition, considering God actively passed over them, and left them in their already fallen state.

Election is because God knows that no one will come to him. The sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the Cross is sufficient for every person that has ever lived or will ever live. The cross is only efficient to those that believe and repent. I look at the non-election side and say that God is passing over them as well. He's doing the exact same thing to them. He has an offer of salvation, they reject and he sends them to hell because of their sin. What's different is that I see God electing some to salvation. I don't believe that election to salvation is in the same way as not election. In other words, Everyone is on a path to hell because all are sinners. God knows that all will reject him. He elects some. I also realize that God could have done nothing to anyone and he would have been perfectly just to do so. But he sent Christ do die on the cross.

Actually, rejecting Jesus would be a moot point. They were already born in their condemned state, and God chose to pass over them before they had even taken their first breath. In y'alls stance, they have already rejected Christ(from the moment of birth, no less), and weren't even aware of it.

No, rejection of Christ has everything to do with it. It's not a moot point at all. If I rejected the sufficiency of the atonement, then you would have a point. But because they are a sinner and have rejected Christ, they are going to go to hell. Remember, God passes over them as well in the non-Calvinistic system.

Now, I agree that everyone who truly wants to be saved, will be saved. Not one lost person, who calls out from the depths of a broken heart will be cast aside. We are in agreement here. The only ones who die lost are those who choose to reject Christ, those who will not humble theirselves under His tender hand of mercy, who want to live their life their way, IOW, thos who reject His calling to them.

right. The point of this thread is to address this one point. Election isn't about keeping people out of hell. Without election, all would have rejected Christ's atonement and been in hell.

This is what I remember of an example that I heard.

Many who object to election see it this way: Jesus is at the gate of heaven and many are coming to him. He chooses some and sends the rest away.

This is not election. Instead it's like this:

Jesus is at the gate. All are going away and will not repent. He elects some of these to heaven and leaves the rest to do exactly as they wish.

 

[convicted1]

I hate bring this up again, but just so you can clarify your position, are you saying that those who never hear about Christ (and so don't reject him) are saved?

No, no one is saved apart from Christ. However, if someone is on a deserted island, and God reveals Himself to that person, they can be saved. The Gospel IS God's power to save, Rom. 1:16. If they are saved in this manner, they are placed in Christ because God chose to reveal Himself to them.

 

[Iconoclast]

The only ones to ever "KNOW" they were elect was the nation of Israel and the particular individuals that God called to fulfill roles in the guidance, encouragement and correction in that national, ethnic and spiritual obligation.

QF
Wrong on several counts. Not all Israel was of Israel to begin with.God had His elect remnant. The Apostles spoke of our knowing our election.
Individual election is a great blessing...not something to be avoided.
QF I do not understand this obsession to avoid this area. P4T has pointed out it is everywhere in scripture.
Could you list your main objections to the teaching?

 

[Robert Snow]

sorry, but this is totally uncalled for. No one is putting the teachings of men over the word of God. I'm saddened that you would say this about your brothers in Christ.

If no one is "putting the teachings of men over the word of God," then this should apply to no one here. Then, why would this sadden you?

On the other hand, if what I said is true, which unfortunately I believe is true, this is what should really sadden you.

 

[convicted1]

Thanks. I've have my first child coming in February btw!

Congrats and blessings my dear Brother!! :thumbs:!!

Election is because God knows that no one will come to him.

True.

The sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the Cross is sufficient for every person that has ever lived or will ever live.

Correct.

The cross is only efficient to those that believe and repent.

Nutter correct!!

I look at the non-election side and say that God is passing over them as well. He's doing the exact same thing to them.

I can not find where it specifically states that He passes over some. Could you please elaborate?

He has an offer of salvation, they reject and he sends them to hell because of their sin.

I agree.

What's different is that I see God electing some to salvation. I don't believe that election to salvation is in the same way as not election. In other words, Everyone is on a path to hell because all are sinners. God knows that all will reject him. He elects some. I also realize that God could have done nothing to anyone and he would have been perfectly just to do so. But he sent Christ do die on the cross.

Again, please show me with scripture, where He passes over some.

No, rejection of Christ has everything to do with it. It's not a moot point at all. If I rejected the sufficiency of the atonement, then you would have a point. But because they are a sinner and have rejected Christ, they are going to go to hell. Remember, God passes over them as well in the non-Calvinistic system.

Some Cals state that Jesus never died for the non-elect, so if He didn't, the cross was not intended for them in the first place. That is why I stated the cross would be a moot point.

right. The point of this thread is to address this one point. Election isn't about keeping people out of hell. Without election, all would have rejected Christ's atonement and been in hell.

I agree.

This is what I remember of an example that I heard.

Many who object to election see it this way: Jesus is at the gate of heaven and many are coming to him. He chooses some and sends the rest away.

This is not election. Instead it's like this:

Jesus is at the gate. All are going away and will not repent. He elects some of these to heaven and leaves the rest to do exactly as they wish.

Now, here is the $64,000 question. Why would He choose some, and leave the rest? Jesus atoned for every sin via His death. If He atoned for their sins as well, then why would He do this? His paying the sin debt in full, means all sins were atoned for, don't you think?

 

[Iconoclast]

I hate bring this up again, but just so you can clarify your position, are you saying that those who never hear about Christ (and so don't reject him) are saved?

I read it the same way, good question:thumbsup:

 

[convicted1]

I read it the same way, good question:thumbsup:

Please read my post, it's #54. My God bless you richly, my Brother.

 

[Iconoclast]

Your avatar is a graven image too. Apparently, you must worship yourself if your interpretation be true.

nice try...but no one heard my voice from heaven as the texts states.