Election Keeps No One Out Of Heaven

What do you mean by this? Surely you aren't saying that unless a person adds that they are blessed to be saved, they end up in hell. Or, is this a new Calvinistic doctrine someone discovered hidden in the Institutes!

 

I don't avoid election, you seem to think (or so I understand) that you feel I just erase election, not so. I simply do not see that doctrine through the same lens that you do. You and I have spoken before on such and I mentioned that find myself much more in line with the likes of Jack Cottrell and others. Unfortunately I cannot "play" much, as I have been assigned an upper level calculus class to teach, which I have not done in over 20 years, so much time must be given to that at the moment. I think (emphasis on think) that YOU understand, my beef is not with the position that you or others hold, that I respect and respectfully (often) disagree with. My beef is the manner (matter of fact) way which disagreement is handled. Nothing wrong with confidence in one's position, we all have that.

 

Robert....I'm done talking to you.

 

You are smitten with wisdom my brother. :thumbs:

 

[QUOTENow, here is the $64,000 question. Why would He choose some, and leave the rest? Jesus atoned for every sin via His death. If He atoned for their sins as well, then why would He do this? His paying the sin debt in full, means all sins were atoned for, don't you think? ][/QUOTE]

7The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:

8But because the LORD loved you,

 

:thumbs: ON DA MONEY!

 

fair enough...it just seems as if you were getting somewhat fiesty about it lately and leaning much in solid opposition. maybe sometime we can meet with open bibles and see how close we can get...or at least understand each other better.:thumbs::thumbs:

 

Reply to 12Strings

In your above quote I highlighted "apart from the Holy Spirit" because that is not what I am saying. John 6:44 clearly teaches no one comes to the Father unless they are drawn by God. So I have no idea why you added that to my view.

Your second statement completely misses what I said. I said the Arminians are in error because they believe (1) God chose foreseen individuals before creation; and (2) they believe the fall resulted in all people being unable in their fallen state to seek and believe in God.

 

You make a ignorant statement to which I ask for an explanation. If this hurt your feelings, I'm sorry. But, I don't think you play the victim very well.

As far as taking to me is concerned, you don't say much worth listening to anyway, so there's really no great loss.

 

Without the elect there would no one sent out to show the love of God for the world and His desire wanting all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. Their would be no one else included, but because of the elect and God working through them there will be amount saved that can't be counted. He did not send them out alone, but with the Holy Spirit and the words of life.

 

Please don't misunderstand me. I do hold differently than you concerning election (theology in general). I am not "fiesty" about people (us) holding different positions, that is NOT my point. I attended a Baptist College for two years and had several professors who were beacons and mentors in my life. Most (if not all) would be classified as "non-calvinists". My point here being that there are intelligent, scholarly persons who are convinced that the pages of scripture do not Necessarily paint the "reformed" (calvinist) picture of theology. Currently I am reading, albeit slowly, The Mission of God by Christopher JH Wright.

 

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

Reply to Psalms 109:31

While the above is completely true, it sidesteps when God chose "us" individually. I believe scripture is clear, He chose "us" corporately before creation, and chose "us" individually during our lifetime based on accepting our faith in Him.

 

:laugh::laugh::laugh: you dont listen to writing....you read it! Perhaps you need to start there! Anyway, I could care less what you think. We are done here Robert. Your just a rude individual.

 

There is an elect chosen before the foundation of the world like the prophets, the disciple's of Jesus the twelve. To prepare the way for Christ and to prepare the way of the Holy Spirit. I believe the same way as Calvinist do for these people. There will be not one who would seek God without a first fruit to spread the message.

Then through them God is including others grafting them in when they heard the Gospel of their salvation having believed.

Ephesians 1:
11 In him we were also chosen,[Or were made heirs] having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.


Included means they were not there from the beginning, because of being in Christ we are chosen before the foundation of the word, not apart from Him. He is the reason we are saved and what He did.

That before the return of the corporate Holy Spirit I believed as the Calvinist believe. Now that the Holy Spirit has been poured upon the earth, there is no excuse for one not to come to Jesus and God made us the messenger of this.

 

You call it rudeness, I call it responding to an attack.

You made a statement I did not understand. I asked you for an explanation and now this? Wouldn't it have been simpler to explain what you meant. If I misunderstood what you were saying, show me. Actually, I thought you misspoke, but wanted to know for sure. If this upsets you then you are really having a bad day.

 

come on.....are we always to respond thus? I sincerely hope not & I know you know better. Cant continue in that walk if we sincerely are trying to come (eventually) to a place of perfection. I just dont see either side conducting ourselves that way as being any way Christian.

 

-Once more, so I understand you, Are you saying that people ARE able in their fallen state to seek and believe in God, but only because he draws them?

 

If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and has the DNA of a duck, then it's a duck, no matter how much you want to call it a fish.

The reformed confessions are illogical and unbiblical on this point. They rightly recognize the inability to reconcile a belief that God is the author of sin with Scripture, so they simply proclaim by fiat that God isn't, even as the rest of the theological framework points to it.

One example of a Calvinist basically making this point is R. C. Sproul, Jr., who said that "God created sin" in Almighty Over All. Of course he would probably deny that God is the "author" of sin, despite this logic.

 

My apologies; almost forgot I posted in this thread.

You are comforted that you were elected to be saved; you do see the elitism in that statement, don't you?