Election Keeps No One Out Of Heaven

[Robert Snow]

you should add..."And Blessed to be"....without that, your in hell.

What do you mean by this? Surely you aren't saying that unless a person adds that they are blessed to be saved, they end up in hell. Or, is this a new Calvinistic doctrine someone discovered hidden in the Institutes!

 

[quantumfaith]

QF
Wrong on several counts. Not all Israel was of Israel to begin with.God had His elect remnant. The Apostles spoke of our knowing our election.
Individual election is a great blessing...not something to be avoided.
QF I do not understand this obsession to avoid this area. P4T has pointed out it is everywhere in scripture.
Could you list your main objections to the teaching?

I don't avoid election, you seem to think (or so I understand) that you feel I just erase election, not so. I simply do not see that doctrine through the same lens that you do. You and I have spoken before on such and I mentioned that find myself much more in line with the likes of Jack Cottrell and others. Unfortunately I cannot "play" much, as I have been assigned an upper level calculus class to teach, which I have not done in over 20 years, so much time must be given to that at the moment. I think (emphasis on think) that YOU understand, my beef is not with the position that you or others hold, that I respect and respectfully (often) disagree with. My beef is the manner (matter of fact) way which disagreement is handled. Nothing wrong with confidence in one's position, we all have that.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

What do you mean by this? Surely you aren't saying that unless a person adds that they are blessed to be saved, they end up in hell. Or, is this a new Calvinistic doctrine someone discovered hidden in the Institutes!

Robert....I'm done talking to you.

 

[preacher4truth]

Robert....I'm done talking to you.

You are smitten with wisdom my brother. :thumbs:

 

[Iconoclast]

[QUOTENow, here is the $64,000 question. Why would He choose some, and leave the rest? Jesus atoned for every sin via His death. If He atoned for their sins as well, then why would He do this? His paying the sin debt in full, means all sins were atoned for, don't you think? ][/QUOTE]

7The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:

8But because the LORD loved you,

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

T
Election is because God knows that no one will come to him. The sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the Cross is sufficient for every person that has ever lived or will ever live. The cross is only efficient to those that believe and repent. I look at the non-election side and say that God is passing over them as well. He's doing the exact same thing to them. He has an offer of salvation, they reject and he sends them to hell because of their sin. What's different is that I see God electing some to salvation. I don't believe that election to salvation is in the same way as not election. In other words, Everyone is on a path to hell because all are sinners. God knows that all will reject him. He elects some. I also realize that God could have done nothing to anyone and he would have been perfectly just to do so. But he sent Christ do die on the cross.

_______________________________________________


right. The point of this thread is to address this one point. Election isn't about keeping people out of hell. Without election, all would have rejected Christ's atonement and been in hell.

:thumbs: ON DA MONEY!

 

[Iconoclast]

I don't avoid election, you seem to think (or so I understand) that you feel I just erase election, not so. I simply do not see that doctrine through the same lens that you do. You and I have spoken before on such and I mentioned that find myself much more in line with the likes of Jack Cottrell and others. Unfortunately I cannot "play" much, as I have been assigned an upper level calculus class to teach, which I have not done in over 20 years, so much time must be given to that at the moment. I think (emphasis on think) that YOU understand, my beef is not with the position that you or others hold, that I respect and respectfully (often) disagree with. My beef is the manner (matter of fact) way which disagreement is handled. Nothing wrong with confidence in one's position, we all have that.

fair enough...it just seems as if you were getting somewhat fiesty about it lately and leaning much in solid opposition. maybe sometime we can meet with open bibles and see how close we can get...or at least understand each other better.:thumbs::thumbs:

 

[Van]

Reply to 12Strings

So to clarify Van, are you saying the following:

1. Our Election is based on our faith in Christ, which is a choice any sinner can make [apart from any Holy Spirit drawing].

2. That Arminians are in error not because they value free will too much, but because they do not value free will enough, and so feel the need to say that God's grace was involved in drawing sinners?

In your above quote I highlighted "apart from the Holy Spirit" because that is not what I am saying. John 6:44 clearly teaches no one comes to the Father unless they are drawn by God. So I have no idea why you added that to my view.

Your second statement completely misses what I said. I said the Arminians are in error because they believe (1) God chose foreseen individuals before creation; and (2) they believe the fall resulted in all people being unable in their fallen state to seek and believe in God.

 

[Robert Snow]

Robert....I'm done talking to you.

You make a ignorant statement to which I ask for an explanation. If this hurt your feelings, I'm sorry. But, I don't think you play the victim very well.

As far as taking to me is concerned, you don't say much worth listening to anyway, so there's really no great loss.

 

[psalms109:31]

Without the elect there would no one sent out to show the love of God for the world and His desire wanting all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. Their would be no one else included, but because of the elect and God working through them there will be amount saved that can't be counted. He did not send them out alone, but with the Holy Spirit and the words of life.

 

[quantumfaith]

fair enough...it just seems as if you were getting somewhat fiesty about it lately and leaning much in solid opposition. maybe sometime we can meet with open bibles and see how close we can get...or at least understand each other better.:thumbs::thumbs:

Please don't misunderstand me. I do hold differently than you concerning election (theology in general). I am not "fiesty" about people (us) holding different positions, that is NOT my point. I attended a Baptist College for two years and had several professors who were beacons and mentors in my life. Most (if not all) would be classified as "non-calvinists". My point here being that there are intelligent, scholarly persons who are convinced that the pages of scripture do not Necessarily paint the "reformed" (calvinist) picture of theology. Currently I am reading, albeit slowly, The Mission of God by Christopher JH Wright.

 

[quantumfaith]

Without the elect there would no one sent out to show the love of God for the world and His desire wanting all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. Their would be no one else included, but because of the elect and God working through them there will be amount saved that can't be counted. He did not send them out alone, but with the Holy Spirit and the words of life.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[Van]

Reply to Psalms 109:31

Without the elect there would no one sent out to show the love of God for the world and His desire wanting all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. Their would be no one else included, but because of the elect and God working through them there will be amount saved that can't be counted. He did not send them out alone, but with the Holy Spirit and the words of life.

While the above is completely true, it sidesteps when God chose "us" individually. I believe scripture is clear, He chose "us" corporately before creation, and chose "us" individually during our lifetime based on accepting our faith in Him.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

You make a ignorant statement to which I ask for an explanation. If this hurt your feelings, I'm sorry. But, I don't think you play the victim very well.

As far as taking to me is concerned, you don't say much worth listening to anyway, so there's really no great loss.

:laugh::laugh::laugh: you dont listen to writing....you read it! Perhaps you need to start there! Anyway, I could care less what you think. We are done here Robert. Your just a rude individual.

 

[psalms109:31]

While the above is completely true, it sidesteps when God chose "us" individually. I believe scripture is clear, He chose "us" corporately before creation, and chose "us" individually during our lifetime based on accepting our faith in Him.

There is an elect chosen before the foundation of the world like the prophets, the disciple's of Jesus the twelve. To prepare the way for Christ and to prepare the way of the Holy Spirit. I believe the same way as Calvinist do for these people. There will be not one who would seek God without a first fruit to spread the message.

Then through them God is including others grafting them in when they heard the Gospel of their salvation having believed.

Ephesians 1:
11 In him we were also chosen,[Or were made heirs] having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.


Included means they were not there from the beginning, because of being in Christ we are chosen before the foundation of the word, not apart from Him. He is the reason we are saved and what He did.

That before the return of the corporate Holy Spirit I believed as the Calvinist believe. Now that the Holy Spirit has been poured upon the earth, there is no excuse for one not to come to Jesus and God made us the messenger of this.

 

[Robert Snow]

:laugh::laugh::laugh: you dont listen to writing....you read it! Perhaps you need to start there! Anyway, I could care less what you think. We are done here Robert. Your just a rude individual.

You call it rudeness, I call it responding to an attack.

You made a statement I did not understand. I asked you for an explanation and now this? Wouldn't it have been simpler to explain what you meant. If I misunderstood what you were saying, show me. Actually, I thought you misspoke, but wanted to know for sure. If this upsets you then you are really having a bad day.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

You call it rudeness, I call it responding to an attack.

You made a statement I did not understand. I asked you for an explanation and now this? Wouldn't it have been simpler to explain what you meant. If I misunderstood what you were saying, show me. Actually, I thought you misspoke, but wanted to know for sure. If this upsets you then you are really having a bad day.

come on.....are we always to respond thus? I sincerely hope not & I know you know better. Cant continue in that walk if we sincerely are trying to come (eventually) to a place of perfection. I just dont see either side conducting ourselves that way as being any way Christian.

 

[12strings]

In your above quote I highlighted "apart from the Holy Spirit" because that is not what I am saying. John 6:44 clearly teaches no one comes to the Father unless they are drawn by God. So I have no idea why you added that to my view.

Your second statement completely misses what I said. I said the Arminians are in error because they believe (1) God chose foreseen individuals before creation; and (2) they believe the fall resulted in all people being unable in their fallen state to seek and believe in God.

-Once more, so I understand you, Are you saying that people ARE able in their fallen state to seek and believe in God, but only because he draws them?

 

[StefanM]

No....your misunderstanding of the teaching leads you to that conclusion.
No calvinist believes or teaches that God is the author of sin.


You see clearly how it is stated in the confession ,so you re-define it wrongly to state your claim.:thumbs:

If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and has the DNA of a duck, then it's a duck, no matter how much you want to call it a fish.

The reformed confessions are illogical and unbiblical on this point. They rightly recognize the inability to reconcile a belief that God is the author of sin with Scripture, so they simply proclaim by fiat that God isn't, even as the rest of the theological framework points to it.

One example of a Calvinist basically making this point is R. C. Sproul, Jr., who said that "God created sin" in Almighty Over All. Of course he would probably deny that God is the "author" of sin, despite this logic.

 

[Don]

I am comforted knowing that God elected me before the world was,and came into the creation to die for me as the elect Servant of The Lord.
I am comforted that there would be no salvation if not for the Decreed purpose of God being unfolded in time.

My apologies; almost forgot I posted in this thread.

You are comforted that you were elected to be saved; you do see the elitism in that statement, don't you?