Election Keeps No One Out Of Heaven

[quantumfaith]

Winman,
Thank you for changing your avatar:thumbs::thumbs:
Thank you for offering scriptures with your reply.
Thank you for acknowledging that election is scriptural

I do not think the scriptures you offered are being used correctly and as a matter of fact.....I think they show clearly that calvinism has it quite correctly.

Kudos on your gracious manner of disagreement.

 

[12strings]

Close but not close enough.
From Van,

People are able in their fallen state to seek and believe in God. This is supported by 1 Corinthians 2:14-3:3. Men of flesh, i.e. fallen people, are able to understand the milk of the gospel.

But unless they hear the gospel with understanding, they will not believe in Him.

The OT tells us how God draws people, by lovingkindness. So when we hear with understanding the gospel - which includes God sending His one of a kind Son to save us, we are drawn to God by His lovingkindness. No one comes to God unless drawn by understanding the gospel.

So "drawing" is not code for "irresistible grace." It is the attraction God provides through our awareness of His lovingkindness. Everyone "drawn" is not saved, see Matthew 13.

---So I think I might have it (maybe not) :tonofbricks:
...You are saying that the Arminian idea of "Prevenient grace" (defined as a quickening of the Holy Spirit to make one able to respond who was otherwise incapable of doing so...even though this is applied in Arminian thought to everyone, some of whom then respond in belief) is not necessary.
Rather, the drawing spoken of by Jesus is the lovingkindess of God expressed in the gospel itself...that the gospel itself is the power of salvation, that even fallen men are able to respond to it, but not all do.

...Close?

 

[Winman]

Iconoclast, I did change my avatar because of you, not because I considered a painting of Christ an idol. I do not bow down or worship any image.

Back to election. 2 Tim 1:9 does not support your view, because it again says "in Christ". Rom 16:7 shows Paul was not in Christ until his lifetime.

So again, how can we be chosen in him before the foundation of the world? Foreknowlege answers this question. God in his foreknowledge knew those in Christ before they were in Christ in time. I also showed you scripture that shows we are not known of God in a personal intimate relationship until we believe in time. Again foreknowlege is the answer, God could know us in this personal relationship before it actually occured.

I have read a few Ref/Cal creeds and they always insist that foreknowledge cannot mean foreseen faith. Why? Where is scripture that states this?

Show me why foreknowledge cannot mean foreseen faith from scripture.

I believe when a person looks at all scripture that it is clear that God could foresee our future faith, and chose those persons according to his foreknowledge. No scripture is contradicted by this.

However, your view contradicts Rom 16:7.

 

[Iconoclast]

[/I][/B]

Kudos on your gracious manner of disagreement.

QF,
I am not here to harm anyone....I would rather help:thumbs:

Some of these topics can get heated and sometimes a bit personal.Ideally they should not, but they do.I have several times allowed myself to get caught up in this from time to time.....but that is not my first choice.

In person this happens much less because as we discussed one time...you can see if the other person is joking, serious, overly emotional,hurting,maybe somewhat limited,etc.

I figure that if someone dishes it out..they should be ready to take some return fire in a DEBATE forum.....this is not the coffee shop:laugh::laugh:

I am home tonight and a bit more rested...so maybe a bit more What I believe the scripture teaches is clear.I know others do not see it.I can only be faithful to what I know as truth.
All will not agree,God will not allow all to see.That is between each person and God.
I have met many more persons like Archangel who has said he was a total non-cal...who having learned greek could no longer resist the truth of the Grace of God.
There are some who say they at one time believed what is called Calvinism...
but everytime I meet one of them or listen to one of their sermons..they never give an accurate portrayal of calvinism.
That tells me they never really grasped it to begin with.I believe that under the right conditions that many more would see it ..if they were given an accurate portrayal of it.
Some will never "see it"....because to them it is not given.

 

[Iconoclast]

Winman,

I have read a few Ref/Cal creeds and they always insist that foreknowledge cannot mean forseen faith. Why? Where is scripture that states this?

Show me why foreknowledge cannot mean forseen faith from scripture.

in Romans 8:29
29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.


Winman........WHOM.....not what

Whom is people....

what would be forseen faith....


forseen faith...is not whom


it does not say; for what he did foreknow

it says ...for whom he did foreknow


whom speaks of the people:thumbs::thumbsup::thumbs:

look at the word order...whom, them.whom them.whom them.....predestined,called, justified, glorified....it is persons...not forseen faith

ps.....i did not think you worshi[ an idol...but we are not to make the image itself...that is a RC error.....Winman...that is why I am the BB iconoclast.....I need to live up to the name....thank for the change!!!

 

[Winman]

QF,
I am not here to harm anyone....I would rather help:thumbs:

Some of these topics can get heated and sometimes a bit personal.Ideally they should not, but they do.I have several times allowed myself to get caught up in this from time to time.....but that is not my first choice.

In person this happens much less because as we discussed one time...you can see if the other person is joking, serious, overly emotional,hurting,maybe somewhat limited,etc.

I figure that if someone dishes it out..they should be ready to take some return fire in a DEBATE forum.....this is not the coffee shop:laugh::laugh:

I am home tonight and a bit more rested...so maybe a bit more What I believe the scripture teaches is clear.I know others do not see it.I can only be faithful to what I know as truth.
All will not agree,God will not allow all to see.That is between each person and God.
I have met many more persons like Archangel who has said he was a total non-cal...who having learned greek could no longer resist the truth of the Grace of God.
There are some who say they at one time believed what is called Calvinism...
but everytime I meet one of them or listen to one of their sermons..they never give an accurate portrayal of calvinism.
That tells me they never really grasped it to begin with.I believe that under the right conditions that many more would see it ..if they were given an accurate portrayal of it.
Some will never "see it"....because to them it is not given.

Saying you want to help people comes across as arrogant and condescending. You assume you are correct and that others are in error when the exact reverse might be the real truth. This seems to have never occured to you. Nobody is asking for your help. Perhaps it is you that needs help.

 

[Winman]

Winman,



in Romans 8:29
29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.


Winman........WHOM.....not what

Whom is people....

what would be forseen faith....


forseen faith...is not whom


it does not say; for what he did foreknow

it says ...for whom he did foreknow


whom speaks of the people:thumbs::thumbsup::thumbs:

look at the word order...whom, them.whom them.whom them.....predestined,called, justified, glorified....it is persons...not forseen faith

ps.....i did not think you worshi[ an idol...but we are not to make the image itself...that is a RC error.....Winman...that is why I am the BB iconoclast.....I need to live up to the name....thank for the change!!!

I showed you from scripture that we are not known of God in a personal way until we believe. (Gal 4:9) How can you say you know a person if you know nothing about them?

So, this is a ridiculous argument.

 

[righteousdude2]

Election Keeps No One Out Of Heaven, is not quite true!

The final event that gets you into heaven is not the election process itself, but rather, the Electoral College! :smilewinkgrin:

Sorry, but I thought a little levity would be appreciated at this juncture in the post!

 

[Iconoclast]

Winman,
[QUOTESaying you want to help people comes across as arrogant and condescending. You assume you are correct and that others are in error when the exact reverse might be the real truth. This seems to have never occured to you. Nobody is asking for your help. Perhaps it is you that needs help.
__________________
][/QUOTE]


[QUOTEPerhaps it is you that needs help.
__________________
][/QUOTE]

I have received much help in my life. Sheep do not mind helping or being helped. Goats do not like it though.

But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased.

......doing good is not arrogant and condescending...it is commanded in scripture.

Your non response to Romans 8;29-30 shows where you are in this.

Once again ....you do not want help...just to be contentious...
the verse in gal4.....that you do not understand also teach God's grace. Paul highlights by saying..rather you are known by God.

You do not seem to comprehend what you read. I cannot help you as you do not want any help. That is fine winman...I will not lose any sleep over it.

A blind man cannot see a rainbow even if it is right in front of Him.He needs eyes to see.
Someone who gets every verse wrong needs eye sight spiritually. They are sincere but it does not help them if they do not have eyes to see.
Tommorow many mormons will look at a bible and not see truth.
If someone tells them the truth trying to help them...would they be arrogant and condescending?
Winman...you do not have to respond...I will leave you to your unique"views" and "insights":thumbs:

 

[Don]

You've completely dismissed the testimony of Scripture and have instead ran to the secular political correctivism of our world as a defense, and on a completely different subject.

Your cheerleaders will now blindly carry you on their shoulders to your fallacious, unthought victory.

Congrats.

Carry on.

So am I to assume that you cannot explain that rejection using scripture? And have thus resorted to throwing around unfounded character assassination by stating I reject scripture?

If you have nothing worthwhile to bring to the discussion, perhaps it's best that you do let others "carry on."

 

[quantumfaith]

QF,
I am not here to harm anyone....I would rather help:thumbs:

Some of these topics can get heated and sometimes a bit personal.Ideally they should not, but they do.I have several times allowed myself to get caught up in this from time to time.....but that is not my first choice.

In person this happens much less because as we discussed one time...you can see if the other person is joking, serious, overly emotional,hurting,maybe somewhat limited,etc.

I figure that if someone dishes it out..they should be ready to take some return fire in a DEBATE forum.....this is not the coffee shop:laugh::laugh:

I am home tonight and a bit more rested...so maybe a bit more What I believe the scripture teaches is clear.I know others do not see it.I can only be faithful to what I know as truth.
All will not agree,God will not allow all to see.That is between each person and God.
I have met many more persons like Archangel who has said he was a total non-cal...who having learned greek could no longer resist the truth of the Grace of God.
There are some who say they at one time believed what is called Calvinism...
but everytime I meet one of them or listen to one of their sermons..they never give an accurate portrayal of calvinism.
That tells me they never really grasped it to begin with.I believe that under the right conditions that many more would see it ..if they were given an accurate portrayal of it.
Some will never "see it"....because to them it is not given.

I disagree (graciously) with your sentiment here. I understand your attempt to imply that only those who "see" calvinism and accept it are the ones "who are "enabled to see".

 

[Winman]

Winman,
[QUOTESaying you want to help people comes across as arrogant and condescending. You assume you are correct and that others are in error when the exact reverse might be the real truth. This seems to have never occured to you. Nobody is asking for your help. Perhaps it is you that needs help.
__________________
]

[QUOTEPerhaps it is you that needs help.
__________________
][/QUOTE]

I have received much help in my life. Sheep do not mind helping or being helped. Goats do not like it though.
......doing good is not arrogant and condescending...it is commanded in scripture.
Your non response to Romans 8;29-30 shows where you are in this.
Once again ....you do not want help...just to be contentious...
the verse in gal4.....that you do not understand also teach God's grace.
You do not seem to comprehend what you read. I cannot help you as you do not want any help. That is fine winman...I will not lose any sleep over it.
A blind man cannot see a rainbow even if it is right in front of Him.He needs eyes to see.
Someone who gets every verse wrong needs eye sight spiritually. They are sincere but it does not help them if they do not have eyes to see.
Tommorow many mormons will look at a bible and not see truth.
If someone tells them the truth trying to help them...would they be arrogant and condescending?
Winman...you do not have to respond...I will leave you to your unique"views" and "insights":thumbs:[/QUOTE]
Obviously what I said went in one ear and out the other. If you want to present your personal views, that is fine, but drop the "I'm trying to help you" insults . And that is exactly what they are, insults.

You seem to believe that you alone understand scripture!

Pride goeth before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall.

 

[Iconoclast]

I disagree (graciously) with your sentiment here. I understand your attempt to imply that only those who "see" calvinism and accept it are the ones "who are "enabled to see".

QF,

All spiritual truth must be Spiritually revealed. that is why we are given the Spirit....

9But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

10But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 11For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

Yes I see what is called calvinism as the truth revealed in this way.
The scripture itself teaches that God reveals and conceals His truth.

11He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

Quantum...I do not think there are any half way measures here....it is all or nothing

 

[Iconoclast]

Winman, I said this to quantum;

I am not here to harm anyone....I would rather help

you twisted it to this;

Obviously what I said went in one ear and out the other. If you want to present your personal views, that is fine, but drop the "I'm trying to help you" insults . And that is exactly what they are, insults.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs: have a nice day my friend:thumbsup:

 

[Winman]

So am I to assume that you cannot explain that rejection using scripture? And have thus resorted to throwing around unfounded character assassination by stating I reject scripture?

If you have nothing worthwhile to bring to the discussion, perhaps it's best that you do let others "carry on."

Exactly. Instead of addressing scripture presented to refute their view, they insult. Very childish.

 

[Winman]

Winman, I said this to quantum;


you twisted it to this;



:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs: have a nice day my friend:thumbsup:

Give me a break, you just implied I was a goat and not saved, compared me to Mormons, and a blind man who cannot see a rainbow. This is NORMAL behavior for you, you have insulted myself and others MANY times in the past. As you are oblivious to the fact that you think you alone understand scripture, you are also oblivious to your constant personal insults.

As for Rom 8:29-30, these verses do not refute my view. They simply say that whom God did foreknow, he also did predestinate.

That agrees with my view, I believe God knows that personal relationship he has with believers before that person believes in time. That is what the "fore" in foreknowledge means.

In Gal 4:9 Paul says "now" that ye have known God. This can only mean a new believer. But then Paul says, "or rather are known of God". Even you would admit God knows all things from eternity, so this is speaking of knowing believers in a personal, intimate sense.

Therefore, Rom 8:29 is speaking of God foreknowing this personal relationship before time, though he does not actually know them personally until they believe in time.

It is not difficult.

 

[Don]

Following the illustration of God standing in a door, arms outstretched, offering His salvation; yet the masses stumble blindly by, so He starts choosing one here, one there ...

Don...this illustration does not fit the biblical truth at all

This is exactly the illustration used in the article linked in the OP, supporting calvinism. If it is not biblical truth, then we have yet another example of the confusion within the calvinist camp. Is it no wonder that non-cals cannot understand what the cals here are attempting to explain?

All men were considered as dead and fallen in Adam. The world is condemned already. if God does not intervene all perish.
God was not caught by surprise at mans fall into the realm of sin and death.

On this, Calvin and Arminius are in agreement.

God's covenant is His provision for all believers throughout time. it is certain because God has elected out from all fallen mankind those He Has designed to save. He did not have to save anyone. He saved all He could wisely save according to His eternal purpose.
he does not try and save.....he saves all he plans to....not one is lost.
If God passes over others...he has a Holy and just reason to do so.
the fact that we see in scripture that multitudes perish ...as well as multitudes being saved...is God's revelation to us and we are to understand why it is Just and righteous .

This is where Arminius and Calvin departed ranks. I completely understand that not all--not even a large number, relatively speaking with regard to an earlier post by JesusFan--will see heaven, and that the result is eternal damnation, and that such a judgment is Holy and just.

The part where Arminius and Calvin split is on the subject of "He saves all He plans to." We can provide scripture that supports "believers are the elect"; but I have yet to see scripture that supports "He does not try and save" or "He saves all He plans to." Please enlighten me.

 

[Iconoclast]

Hello Don,

The part where Arminius and Calvin split is on the subject of "He saves all He plans to." We can provide scripture that supports "believers are the elect"; but I have yet to see scripture that supports "He does not try and save" or "He saves all He plans to." Please enlighten me[/QUOTE]

thanks for your response and good question
this question deals with the scope of the atonement
most directly;

11For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, 12Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.

13And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.
14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

15And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

16For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

hebrews 10

14For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
15Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

19Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

Don there are many verses like this that speak of Jesus taking on Him the seed of Abraham.....not the seed of Adam...in a salvation context.

9And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.

10For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

the seeking and saving that which was lost comes from the good shepherd of Ezkiel 34...he seeks and saves His Sheep[elect] ..not goats

6My sheep wandered through all the mountains, and upon every high hill: yea, my flock was scattered upon all the face of the earth, and none did search or seek after them.

7Therefore, ye shepherds, hear the word of the LORD;

8As I live, saith the Lord GOD, surely because my flock became a prey, and my flock became meat to every beast of the field, because there was no shepherd, neither did my shepherds search for my flock, but the shepherds fed themselves, and fed not my flock;

9Therefore, O ye shepherds, hear the word of the LORD;

10Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against the shepherds; and I will require my flock at their hand, and cause them to cease from feeding the flock; neither shall the shepherds feed themselves any more; for I will deliver my flock from their mouth, that they may not be meat for them.

11For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I, even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out.

12As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day.

13And I will bring them out from the people, and gather them from the countries, and will bring them to their own land, and feed them upon the mountains of Israel by the rivers, and in all the inhabited places of the country.

14I will feed them in a good pasture, and upon the high mountains of Israel shall their fold be: there shall they lie in a good fold, and in a fat pasture shall they feed upon the mountains of Israel.

15I will feed my flock, and I will cause them to lie down, saith the Lord GOD.

16I will seek that which was lost, and bring again that which was driven away, and will bind up that which was broken, and will strengthen that which was sick: but I will destroy the fat and the strong; I will feed them with judgment.

17And as for you, O my flock, thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I judge between cattle and cattle, between the rams and the he goats.

18Seemeth it a small thing unto you to have eaten up the good pasture, but ye must tread down with your feet the residue of your pastures? and to have drunk of the deep waters, but ye must foul the residue with your feet?

19And as for my flock, they eat that which ye have trodden with your feet; and they drink that which ye have fouled with your feet.

20Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD unto them; Behold, I, even I, will judge between the fat cattle and between the lean cattle.

21Because ye have thrust with side and with shoulder, and pushed all the diseased with your horns, till ye have scattered them abroad;

22Therefore will I save my flock, and they shall no more be a prey; and I will judge between cattle and cattle.

23And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd.

24And I the LORD will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the LORD have spoken it.

25And I will make with them a covenant of peace, and will cause the evil beasts to cease out of the land: and they shall dwell safely in the wilderness, and sleep in the woods.

26And I will make them and the places round about my hill a blessing; and I will cause the shower to come down in his season; there shall be showers of blessing.
27And the tree of the field shall yield her fruit, and the earth shall yield her increase, and they shall be safe in their land, and shall know that I am the LORD, when I have broken the bands of their yoke, and delivered them out of the hand of those that served themselves of them.

28And they shall no more be a prey to the heathen, neither shall the beast of the land devour them; but they shall dwell safely, and none shall make them afraid.

29And I will raise up for them a plant of renown, and they shall be no more consumed with hunger in the land, neither bear the shame of the heathen any more.

30Thus shall they know that I the LORD their God am with them, and that they, even the house of Israel, are my people, saith the Lord GOD.

31And ye my flock, the flock of my pasture, are men, and I am your God, saith the Lord GOD.

Don...there are many places this is taught....The great shepherd saves His sheep...not just make them savable.....but seeks and saves the lost sheep.

Just like in Jn 10

26But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

12Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

48And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed

 

[Don]

Hello Don,

The part where Arminius and Calvin split is on the subject of "He saves all He plans to." We can provide scripture that supports "believers are the elect"; but I have yet to see scripture that supports "He does not try and save" or "He saves all He plans to." Please enlighten me[/QUOTE]

thanks for your response and good question
this question deals with the scope of the atonement
most directly;


hebrews 10



Don there are many verses like this that speak of Jesus taking on Him the seed of Abraham.....not the seed of Adam...in a salvation context.

the seeking and saving that which was lost comes from the good shepherd of Ezkiel 34...he seeks and saves His Sheep[elect] ..not goats


Don...there are many places this is taught....The great shepherd saves His sheep...not just make them savable.....but seeks and saves the lost sheep.

Just like in Jn 10


[/B]

[/B]

Placing myself in your mindset, I see what you're trying to say; but it doesn't support your statement that God doesn't try to save; or that He saves all He plans to. In order for these verses to support that, one must start with that mindset.

In other words, if I have the mindset that the sheep represent only the elect; then it's easy to see that He only searches out His chosen.

But if you take the other side of the coin, that "whosoever" means "whosoever," then it's easy to come to the conclusion that He came to seek and to to save those that will believe; not those who were chosen to believe.

If I approach scripture with a completely open mind, I don't necessarily come to the same conclusion you have.

Please continue.

 

[Iconoclast]

Hello Don,

Placing myself in your mindset, I see what you're trying to say; but it doesn't support your statement that God doesn't try to save; or that He saves all He plans to. In order for these verses to support that, one must start with that mindset.

In other words, if I have the mindset that the sheep represent only the elect; then it's easy to see that He only searches out His chosen.

But if you take the other side of the coin, that "whosoever" means "whosoever," then it's easy to come to the conclusion that He came to seek and to to save those that will believe; not those who were chosen to believe.

If I approach scripture with a completely open mind, I don't necessarily come to the same conclusion you have.

Please continue.

I will do more tommorow as it is late...but for now two things to consider

the whosoever of jn 3:16 actually reads.....everyone believing

15that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during,

16for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.

Even if it did say...whosoever.....the fact is that no one seeks God psalm 14 :1-3-romans 3;10.

Plus this as long as it is in the bible shows it infallibly;

37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Don notice the same language of Hebrews 2...see also Isa 54;1-13 How many come to Jesus ...ALL THE FATHER GIVES...no more...no less

13And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

[B]Don....this is as clear and definate as it can be said....of all He has given me,I shall lose nothing

again...no more..no less[/B]

40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

41The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.

42And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?

43Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.

44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

This is true because it is the covenant of redemption made before the world was;

9Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began

45It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

verse45 is a quote from isa 54...the gentiles are coming into the kingdom in droves...those who are taught of God.....that would be the elect!
i will do more tommorow if you like must rest for the Lords day now:thumbs: