Election Keeps No One Out Of Heaven

Kudos on your gracious manner of disagreement.

 

Close but not close enough.
From Van,

---So I think I might have it (maybe not) :tonofbricks:
...You are saying that the Arminian idea of "Prevenient grace" (defined as a quickening of the Holy Spirit to make one able to respond who was otherwise incapable of doing so...even though this is applied in Arminian thought to everyone, some of whom then respond in belief) is not necessary.
Rather, the drawing spoken of by Jesus is the lovingkindess of God expressed in the gospel itself...that the gospel itself is the power of salvation, that even fallen men are able to respond to it, but not all do.

...Close?

 

Iconoclast, I did change my avatar because of you, not because I considered a painting of Christ an idol. I do not bow down or worship any image.

Back to election. 2 Tim 1:9 does not support your view, because it again says "in Christ". Rom 16:7 shows Paul was not in Christ until his lifetime.

So again, how can we be chosen in him before the foundation of the world? Foreknowlege answers this question. God in his foreknowledge knew those in Christ before they were in Christ in time. I also showed you scripture that shows we are not known of God in a personal intimate relationship until we believe in time. Again foreknowlege is the answer, God could know us in this personal relationship before it actually occured.

I have read a few Ref/Cal creeds and they always insist that foreknowledge cannot mean foreseen faith. Why? Where is scripture that states this?

Show me why foreknowledge cannot mean foreseen faith from scripture.

I believe when a person looks at all scripture that it is clear that God could foresee our future faith, and chose those persons according to his foreknowledge. No scripture is contradicted by this.

However, your view contradicts Rom 16:7.

 

QF,
I am not here to harm anyone....I would rather help:thumbs:

Some of these topics can get heated and sometimes a bit personal.Ideally they should not, but they do.I have several times allowed myself to get caught up in this from time to time.....but that is not my first choice.

In person this happens much less because as we discussed one time...you can see if the other person is joking, serious, overly emotional,hurting,maybe somewhat limited,etc.

I figure that if someone dishes it out..they should be ready to take some return fire in a DEBATE forum.....this is not the coffee shop:laugh::laugh:

I am home tonight and a bit more rested...so maybe a bit more What I believe the scripture teaches is clear.I know others do not see it.I can only be faithful to what I know as truth.
All will not agree,God will not allow all to see.That is between each person and God.
I have met many more persons like Archangel who has said he was a total non-cal...who having learned greek could no longer resist the truth of the Grace of God.
There are some who say they at one time believed what is called Calvinism...
but everytime I meet one of them or listen to one of their sermons..they never give an accurate portrayal of calvinism.
That tells me they never really grasped it to begin with.I believe that under the right conditions that many more would see it ..if they were given an accurate portrayal of it.
Some will never "see it"....because to them it is not given.

 

Winman,

in Romans 8:29
29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.


Winman........WHOM.....not what

Whom is people....

what would be forseen faith....


forseen faith...is not whom


it does not say; for what he did foreknow

it says ...for whom he did foreknow


whom speaks of the people:thumbs::thumbsup::thumbs:

look at the word order...whom, them.whom them.whom them.....predestined,called, justified, glorified....it is persons...not forseen faith

ps.....i did not think you worshi[ an idol...but we are not to make the image itself...that is a RC error.....Winman...that is why I am the BB iconoclast.....I need to live up to the name....thank for the change!!!

 

Saying you want to help people comes across as arrogant and condescending. You assume you are correct and that others are in error when the exact reverse might be the real truth. This seems to have never occured to you. Nobody is asking for your help. Perhaps it is you that needs help.

 

I showed you from scripture that we are not known of God in a personal way until we believe. (Gal 4:9) How can you say you know a person if you know nothing about them?

So, this is a ridiculous argument.

 

Election Keeps No One Out Of Heaven, is not quite true!

The final event that gets you into heaven is not the election process itself, but rather, the Electoral College! :smilewinkgrin:

Sorry, but I thought a little levity would be appreciated at this juncture in the post!

 

Winman,
[QUOTESaying you want to help people comes across as arrogant and condescending. You assume you are correct and that others are in error when the exact reverse might be the real truth. This seems to have never occured to you. Nobody is asking for your help. Perhaps it is you that needs help.
__________________
][/QUOTE]


[QUOTEPerhaps it is you that needs help.
__________________
][/QUOTE]

I have received much help in my life. Sheep do not mind helping or being helped. Goats do not like it though.

......doing good is not arrogant and condescending...it is commanded in scripture.

Your non response to Romans 8;29-30 shows where you are in this.

Once again ....you do not want help...just to be contentious...
the verse in gal4.....that you do not understand also teach God's grace. Paul highlights by saying..rather you are known by God.

You do not seem to comprehend what you read. I cannot help you as you do not want any help. That is fine winman...I will not lose any sleep over it.

A blind man cannot see a rainbow even if it is right in front of Him.He needs eyes to see.
Someone who gets every verse wrong needs eye sight spiritually. They are sincere but it does not help them if they do not have eyes to see.
Tommorow many mormons will look at a bible and not see truth.
If someone tells them the truth trying to help them...would they be arrogant and condescending?
Winman...you do not have to respond...I will leave you to your unique"views" and "insights":thumbs:

 

So am I to assume that you cannot explain that rejection using scripture? And have thus resorted to throwing around unfounded character assassination by stating I reject scripture?

If you have nothing worthwhile to bring to the discussion, perhaps it's best that you do let others "carry on."

 

I disagree (graciously) with your sentiment here. I understand your attempt to imply that only those who "see" calvinism and accept it are the ones "who are "enabled to see".

 

[QUOTEPerhaps it is you that needs help.
__________________
][/QUOTE]

I have received much help in my life. Sheep do not mind helping or being helped. Goats do not like it though.
......doing good is not arrogant and condescending...it is commanded in scripture.
Your non response to Romans 8;29-30 shows where you are in this.
Once again ....you do not want help...just to be contentious...
the verse in gal4.....that you do not understand also teach God's grace.
You do not seem to comprehend what you read. I cannot help you as you do not want any help. That is fine winman...I will not lose any sleep over it.
A blind man cannot see a rainbow even if it is right in front of Him.He needs eyes to see.
Someone who gets every verse wrong needs eye sight spiritually. They are sincere but it does not help them if they do not have eyes to see.
Tommorow many mormons will look at a bible and not see truth.
If someone tells them the truth trying to help them...would they be arrogant and condescending?
Winman...you do not have to respond...I will leave you to your unique"views" and "insights":thumbs:[/QUOTE]
Obviously what I said went in one ear and out the other. If you want to present your personal views, that is fine, but drop the "I'm trying to help you" insults . And that is exactly what they are, insults.

You seem to believe that you alone understand scripture!

Pride goeth before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall.

 

QF,

All spiritual truth must be Spiritually revealed. that is why we are given the Spirit....

Yes I see what is called calvinism as the truth revealed in this way.
The scripture itself teaches that God reveals and conceals His truth.

Quantum...I do not think there are any half way measures here....it is all or nothing

 

Winman, I said this to quantum;

you twisted it to this;

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs: have a nice day my friend:thumbsup:

 

Exactly. Instead of addressing scripture presented to refute their view, they insult. Very childish.

 

Give me a break, you just implied I was a goat and not saved, compared me to Mormons, and a blind man who cannot see a rainbow. This is NORMAL behavior for you, you have insulted myself and others MANY times in the past. As you are oblivious to the fact that you think you alone understand scripture, you are also oblivious to your constant personal insults.

As for Rom 8:29-30, these verses do not refute my view. They simply say that whom God did foreknow, he also did predestinate.

That agrees with my view, I believe God knows that personal relationship he has with believers before that person believes in time. That is what the "fore" in foreknowledge means.

In Gal 4:9 Paul says "now" that ye have known God. This can only mean a new believer. But then Paul says, "or rather are known of God". Even you would admit God knows all things from eternity, so this is speaking of knowing believers in a personal, intimate sense.

Therefore, Rom 8:29 is speaking of God foreknowing this personal relationship before time, though he does not actually know them personally until they believe in time.

It is not difficult.

 

This is exactly the illustration used in the article linked in the OP, supporting calvinism. If it is not biblical truth, then we have yet another example of the confusion within the calvinist camp. Is it no wonder that non-cals cannot understand what the cals here are attempting to explain?

On this, Calvin and Arminius are in agreement.

This is where Arminius and Calvin departed ranks. I completely understand that not all--not even a large number, relatively speaking with regard to an earlier post by JesusFan--will see heaven, and that the result is eternal damnation, and that such a judgment is Holy and just.

The part where Arminius and Calvin split is on the subject of "He saves all He plans to." We can provide scripture that supports "believers are the elect"; but I have yet to see scripture that supports "He does not try and save" or "He saves all He plans to." Please enlighten me.

 

Hello Don,