Election Keeps No One Out Of Heaven

[Winman]

What is unscriptural is you are suggesting God elected people based on who or what they were ,or according to something in them that distinguished them from others , when the scripture is clear that God does not work that way.
You along with Van...completely mis-understand these verses.

Oh, I see, when I take God's word as literal I err? I need someone like you to explain what these verses really mean?

I think you should spend more time reading the scriptures and less time listening to reformed teachers who explain away scripture.

 

[Benjamin]

Oh, I see, when I take God's word as literal I err? I need someone like you to explain what these verses really mean?

I think you should spend more time reading the scriptures and less time listening to reformed teachers who explain away scripture.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:






:smilewinkgrin:

 

[quantumfaith]

I'm not comforted by the thought that I was elected to be saved. I'm comforted by the thought that I am saved.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[Iconoclast]

Oh, I see, when I take God's word as literal I err? I need someone like you to explain what these verses really mean?I think you should spend more time reading the scriptures and less time listening to reformed teachers who explain away scripture.

Winman....I am content let you remain in your error if you want to remain unteachable. This is a free country you can do as you please.
For you to casually set aside reformed brethren...who have gotten it right....and suggest that I need to ignore verses offered by Dagg, the reformers, puritans, apostles.......to listen to you, Van, webdog, and a few others instead is almost like something on the sci-fi channel.

So all the reformers,and all the confessing church is in error???? only heretics like finney and pelagius got it right....yes...i see very clearly now:laugh::laugh:

It is because I read the scripture ...as these other men did, that we believe these truths found in the scripture. This you cannot seem to believe and yet almost everyone says the same thing.

 

[StefanM]

This is ungodly thought that Paul anticipated and refuted in Romans 9. Romans 9 makes no sense unless God's election is just as the calvinist understands it.
God does not sin or cause sin, the scripture is clear on this as is every calvinistic confession.

It's not ungodly thought. There are other ways to interpret Romans 9 that do not make God the author of sin, which is exactly what Calvinism does, despite protests to the contrary.

 

[Iconoclast]

Oh, I see, when I take God's word as literal I err?

You can error taking something literally, or figuratively
If you take God's word literally why do you have a picture of a hippie knocking on a door in your avatar?? when literally we read this:

12And the LORD spake unto you out of the midst of the fire: ye heard the voice of the words, but saw no similitude; only ye heard a voice.

13And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

14And the LORD commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it.

15Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that the LORD spake unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire:

16Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female,

17The likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged fowl that flieth in the air,

18The likeness of any thing that creepeth on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the waters beneath the earth:

19And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which the LORD thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven.

what is that picture of the hippie,supposed to be??? a second commandment violation??

So your claim of taking something literally needs some explaining.

 

[Robert Snow]

Winman....I am content let you remain in your error if you want to remain unteachable. This is a free country you can do as you please.
For you to casually set aside reformed brethren...who have gotten it right....and suggest that I need to ignore verses offered by Dagg, the reformers, puritans, apostles.......to listen to you, Van, webdog, and a few others instead is almost like something on the sci-fi channel.

So all the reformers,and all the confessing church is in error???? only heretics like finney and pelagius got it right....yes...i see very clearly now:laugh::laugh:

It is because I read the scripture ...as these other men did, that we believe these truths found in the scripture. This you cannot seem to believe and yet almost everyone says the same thing.

You appear to put more confidence in the reformers than you do in the plain teaching of the Word of God. This is all to common with Calvinism.

 

[jbh28]

This does not negate that Calvinism believes God passes by many men and has not elected them to salvation.

You are left no other conclusion than God desires many men perish, else he would have elected them.

Could God have saved everyone if he chose to? Of course. The cross was sufficient for all. So there goes that argument. You are in the same boat.

You are correct, election keeps no one out of heaven, but non-election does.

Rejection of Christ and sin.

Of course, the Calvinist will say the unelect do not desire to go to heaven. This is so utterly false as to be absurd, I have never met anyone who did not want to go to heaven.

Well, you need to get out more. But really, we teach that no non-elect person will want to come to Christ and be saved.

 

[jbh28]

You appear to put more confidence in the reformers than you do in the plain teaching of the Word of God. This is all to[sic] common with Calvinism.

sorry, but this is totally uncalled for. No one is putting the teachings of men over the word of God. I'm saddened that you would say this about your brothers in Christ.

 

[convicted1]

This is ungodly thought that Paul anticipated and refuted in Romans 9. Romans 9 makes no sense unless God's election is just as the calvinist understands it.
God does not sin or cause sin, the scripture is clear on this as is every calvinistic confession.

Brother, with all due respect, Romans 9 is talking about the Israelites and Gentiles. God hardened their(Israellites) hearts due to continual rebellion towards Him, and He then turned to us, the Gentiles.

Romans 9
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.[/U]

We(Gentiles) were the "vessels of wrath fitted for destruction", even being referred to as dogs by the Jews. But when Jesus died, He tore down the middle wall of partition, so that now, there is no more Jew nor Greek, male nor female, but one Spirit. By this One Spirit, are we baptized into the One body, which is Jesus Christ the Lord.

Ephesians 2
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

You see here, Apostle Paul is telling them how Jesus grafted in the Gentiles by His death, burial, and resurrection. Those who were/are nigh are the Jews(God's chosen{elect} people), and the Gentiles were the ones who were afar off. When the veil of the Temple rent in twain upon Jesus' death, it signified the ending of the Law, and the ushering in of a New(Grace) Covenant. Now, Jesus is drawing all unto Him, but not all will come. Jesus stated in John 12:32,"If I be lifted up, I will draw all men unto me."

 

[convicted1]

Could God have saved everyone if he chose to? Of course. The cross was sufficient for all. So there goes that argument. You are in the same boat.

If they(non-elect) were passed over the same way God chose His elect(before the foundation of the world), then how does the cross have any effect on the non-elect whatsoever??? They were born in an alredy condemned state(reprobation) not having done anything good or evil. So, in fact, the cross would have no effect on their condition, considering God actively passed over them, and left them in their already fallen state.

Rejection of Christ and sin.

Actually, rejecting Jesus would be a moot point. They were already born in their condemned state, and God chose to pass over them before they had even taken their first breath. In y'alls stance, they have already rejected Christ(from the moment of birth, no less), and weren't even aware of it.

Well, you need to get out more. But really, we teach that no non-elect person will want to come to Christ and be saved.

Now, I agree that everyone who truly wants to be saved, will be saved. Not one lost person, who calls out from the depths of a broken heart will be cast aside. We are in agreement here. The only ones who die lost are those who choose to reject Christ, those who will not humble theirselves under His tender hand of mercy, who want to live their life their way, IOW, thos who reject His calling to them.

Now Brother, please do not take this post as me being hateful or a smart aleck. I did not intend for it to come across that way. May God bless you, and your whole family!!!!

 

[Winman]

Could God have saved everyone if he chose to? Of course. The cross was sufficient for all. So there goes that argument.

The cross is meaningless in your system for the unelect as Willis correctly pointed out.

You are in the same boat.
Rejection of Christ and sin.

In your system the unelect are born dead in sin and totally unable to accept Christ. It is like God punishing a person born blind because he cannot see. Horrendous, how can any thinking person accept such doctrine?

Well, you need to get out more. But really, we teach that no non-elect person will want to come to Christ and be saved.

Oh, I understand perfectly what you believe and it is horrible.

And many years ago there was a famous country song that sang, "everybody wants to go to heaven, but nobody wants to die". Maybe it is you that needs to get out of that Reformed library.

 

[Winman]

You can error taking something literally, or figuratively
If you take God's word literally why do you have a picture of a hippie knocking on a door in your avatar?? when literally we read this:




what is that picture of the hippie,supposed to be??? a second commandment violation??

So your claim of taking something literally needs some explaining.

Your avatar is a graven image too. Apparently, you must worship yourself if your interpretation be true.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I'm not comforted by the thought that I was elected to be saved. I'm comforted by the thought that I am saved.

you should add..."And Blessed to be"....without that, your in hell.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

On the contrary...it can also make a person neurotic in doubting one's salvation. Why? ....here's why: how can a person be absolutely certain that he/she is elect? How can you know you are not being deceived?

Bottom line--it comes down to experiential elements. You believe you are genuinely saved because of evidence of sanctification...just like Arminians/non-Calvinists.

Unconditional election only brings comfort if you have absolute certainty that you are elect.

I would say then that your the neurotic type who cant put faith in Gods saving Grace & Love. Anyone who wants salvation already has it! Sorry but I dont buy your explanation.

 

[quantumfaith]

It's not ungodly thought. There are other ways to interpret Romans 9 that do not make God the author of sin, which is exactly what Calvinism does, despite protests to the contrary.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

Thank you Stefan for clarifying that any (perhaps all of us) may "get it" wrongly no matter how pridefully we may claim otherwise.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Winman....I am content let you remain in your error if you want to remain unteachable. This is a free country you can do as you please.
For you to casually set aside reformed brethren...who have gotten it right....and suggest that I need to ignore verses offered by Dagg, the reformers, puritans, apostles.......to listen to you, Van, webdog, and a few others instead is almost like something on the sci-fi channel.

So all the reformers,and all the confessing church is in error???? only heretics like finney and pelagius got it right....yes...i see very clearly now:laugh::laugh:

It is because I read the scripture ...as these other men did, that we believe these truths found in the scripture. This you cannot seem to believe and yet almost everyone says the same thing.

CONGRATULATIONS! or as the motto goes "Post Tenebras Lux/ after darkness, light":thumbs::applause:

 

[preacher4truth]

On the contrary...it can also make a person neurotic in doubting one's salvation. Why? ....here's why: how can a person be absolutely certain that he/she is elect? How can you know you are not being deceived?

Bottom line--it comes down to experiential elements. You believe you are genuinely saved because of evidence of sanctification...just like Arminians/non-Calvinists.

Unconditional election only brings comfort if you have absolute certainty that you are elect.

Concerning your "neurotic" implications, not true. It looks to me you have a problem with the Biblical term and theology concerning the elect and election, and/or just don't like it. It's all over the Bible, get used to it.

A person knows they are elect, Paul speaks about it to the churches he wrote to telling them they are elect/chosen, and we know these things to be true simply because we have been drawn to Christ and have been subsequently regenerated.

No need to then wonder if we are "elect" as this is synonymous with being His people, saved, regenerated &c in it's result.

Unconditional election brought comfort to the reipients of the Epistles. We, (the elect today) happen to also be recipients of this living Word of God.

 

[preacher4truth]

Winman....I am content let you remain in your error if you want to remain unteachable. This is a free country you can do as you please.
For you to casually set aside reformed brethren...who have gotten it right....and suggest that I need to ignore verses offered by Dagg, the reformers, puritans, apostles.......to listen to you, Van, webdog, and a few others instead is almost like something on the sci-fi channel.

So all the reformers,and all the confessing church is in error???? only heretics like finney and pelagius got it right....yes...i see very clearly now:laugh::laugh:

It is because I read the scripture ...as these other men did, that we believe these truths found in the scripture. This you cannot seem to believe and yet almost everyone says the same thing.

Spot on brother. :thumbsup:

Their error is never ceasing. Finney and Pelagius have done MUCH damage. Proof-texting kings they are, and thus their followers.

 

[quantumfaith]

The only ones to ever "KNOW" they were elect was the nation of Israel and the particular individuals that God called to fulfill roles in the guidance, encouragement and correction in that national, ethnic and spiritual obligation.