What Did John mean By "Keeping the Commandments?"

[webdog]

except that what I say is either what the Bible states, or force other to face where their erronous viewpoints would take them!

...or the erroneous viewpoints are made up (as Don stated initially).

 

[HankD]

Hank,
We know that John cannot be teaching sinless perfection here because of 1John 1:8-10). So to suppose that John is saying, "He cannot sin" in the sense of never sinning, must be wrong. In Greek, the Present Tense usually has the sense of continuous action, so what John is saying here is that whilst we all fall short on many occasions (James 3:2a), someone who keeps on in a sin cannot be a Christian. If someone who is in an adulterous relationship says he is Christian but won't give up his affair, he is deceiving himself. If anyone says, "I am a Christian, but I won't stop doing that" whether "that" is stealing, lying, thieving, idolatry or anything else, he is simply deceiving himself. Now anyone may fall into sin for a period, but if he is one of Christ's sheep, the good Shepherd will bring him back. If He doesn't bring him back, the only explanation is that he is not one of Christ's sheep.

Christ's sheep are a special breed. They are distinguished by their ears and their feet. They hear Christ's voice and they follow Him (John 10:27). If someone is continually and deliberately not listening to our Lord's commands or obeying them, how can he be one of His sheep?

Steve

I understand Steve. I am wondering if FAL understands this as well.

Several of us have had an ongoing debate with him and while he admits that sin is possible in the life of a Christian he keeps saying he does not interpret the scripture while it is evident he has added another nuance to the English by adding "practice" to the passage of 1 John 3:7-9 which word clearly is not present in the koine.

Darby's Bible (1884) uses the word "practice" as a functional equivalent
perhaps because it is implied by the present participle of verse 8.

8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning.

"committeth sin" is a present participle form. So that is why I asked FAL to explain the difference between the simple present tense of the KJV and the present participle of the koine in verse 8.

Verse 8 sets up the venue that sinning in a continuous way in the sense of the participle is what the devil does "from the beginning" he always does from the beginning until now indicated by the present participle.

When we are born again the bond of sin in the continuing sense of the participle is broken "For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil".

Now we cannot sin in that same fashion as the devil because the Spirit of God dwells in us.

Also, we "cannot sin" does not mean we are incapable of a sin but in the way that Paul puts it we cannot sin without a present tense consequence:

1 Corinthians 10

20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.
21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.
22 Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he?​

Apparently these Corinthians had quenched/grieved the Spirit to the point that they had returned to their former ways of Pagan Temple worship while still fellowshipping in the local church at Corinth.​

And a host of other sins in which they were involved.​

HankD​

 

[freeatlast]

Might I remind you FAL that the word "practice" is not in the original language of this passage, you (or someone who taught you) added it and in reality you are intrepreting because that word (practice) is not "written" in the word of God in the original language.

1 John 3

7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.​

Now in an effort to translate from koine Greek to English or any language there are occasions when it is necessary to add words to carry the original thought into the receptor language.​

The KJV often does that usually putting it in italics but they did not add anything as you have done here.​

Why then do you add the word "practice" in parenthesis to the English translation of the word of God in this passage.​

What is the difference between:
"whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin" and
"whosoever is born of God doth not commit (practice) sin"

What is the difference between:
"he cannot sin" and
"he cannot (practice) sin"

HankD​

Hank it is true that the actual word "practice" is not in the Greek but the construction of the Greek requires the rendering of the word for our English to read properly. From the point of salvation God not only keeps us from losing that salvation he keeps us from returning to practicing sin. What we are left with is the battle to not sin at all. This is why John says IF we sin not when we sin. True believers do not practice sin. It is no longer their character to do so. From time to time we may fail in our struggle to walk with the Lord but there is confession and forsaking of the sin as we continue on in our daily walk to keep His commandments.

In keeping with the OP question it means that the commandments is what steers the believer on their daily walk continually.

 

[HankD]

Hank it is true that the actual word "practice" is not in the Greek but the construction of the Greek requires the rendering of the word for our English to read properly. From the point of salvation God not only keeps us from losing that salvation he keeps us from returning to practicing sin. What we are left with is the battle to not sin at all. This is why John says IF we sin not when we sin. True believers do not practice sin. It is no longer their character to do so. From time to time we may fail in our struggle to walk with the Lord but there is confession and forsaking of the sin as we continue on in our daily walk to keep His commandments.

In keeping with the OP question it means that the commandments is what steers the believer on their daily walk continually.

Thanks FAL, I believe we are closing in on an agreement which I felt we had all along but semantics being what they are sometimes we need to hash things out.

Hebrews 12

28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
29 For our God is a consuming fire.​

HankD

 

[JesusFan]

Jesusfan...



I have been noticing that for quite a while now. I have much MUCH less disagreements with you, in many areas, than with, for example, Freeatlast or Iconoclast.

Might be because I would not been seen as being a 'real" cal maybe, as fall under heading of being a n "Amraldist"

From my experience I would say yes.


Btw, I think the *abreviated* version of Lordship Salvation is "LS".

Every time I see your "LDS" I automatically think "Latter Day Saints". :wavey: (Mormons)

Think that we all need to remember on this that once saved by grace of God, we are secured/anchored by the Cross, so behaviour should indeed reflect our new life in Christ, but odedience to the law did not save us, nor odedience keeps us saved, its in the Grace extended from God towards ud in the Cross!

 

[DHK]

Hank it is true that the actual word "practice" is not in the Greek but the construction of the Greek requires the rendering of the word for our English to read properly. From the point of salvation God not only keeps us from losing that salvation he keeps us from returning to practicing sin. What we are left with is the battle to not sin at all. This is why John says IF we sin not when we sin. True believers do not practice sin. It is no longer their character to do so. From time to time we may fail in our struggle to walk with the Lord but there is confession and forsaking of the sin as we continue on in our daily walk to keep His commandments.

In keeping with the OP question it means that the commandments is what steers the believer on their daily walk continually.

In the OT God said: "Man looks on the outward appearance; God looks on the heart." That is still true today, and well worth remembering. No matter how a Christian is living one cannot see the heart, and only God can judge that person, not man. This is where LS theology fails miserably.

If Lot had lived amongst us today he would be condemned as a wicked and vile sinner of the worst sort. No way could ever be called a believer! Why, he offered his own two virgin daughters to be abused all night long by a homosexual crowd. Not even decent unsaved people do that! He is just a wretch that deserves jail time IMO. But God's opinion is different. He called him just and righteous. God looks at the heart, not the outward appearance.

What about the thief on the cross. No LS there either! If it were not for John's witness to the facts here, Christianity everywhere would have condemned this man saying, "he got what he deserved, that wicked thief!" "A common criminal, he had it coming to him." "He'll burn in hell now!" And the condemnatory epithets would have gone on and on. But John, being close to the cross, witnessed something else, something he could tell to the world. He heard a thief call out to Christ:
Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. (Luke 23:42)
But wait? Where are the works? Where is the fruit of the LS? He is just a common thief! He doesn't deserve salvation; he is not qualified. He hasn't done his fair share of following after Jesus in order to be his disciple, and therefore cannot be saved. He is not a disciple (which equals believer) and thus cannot be saved (according to LS advocates), but not according to Jesus.
Had Luke not recorded those words the world, even the Christian world, would have sent him to hell. It is God that knows the heart, not man.

Recently a man got up in our church and gave this testimony:
Many of you don't know me. I was saved and baptized here by the pastor of this church 20 years ago. I trusted Christ as my Savior. But i didn't live like it. I went off and lived in sin. I got into drink, and got messed up in drugs. My lifestyle was one that wicked and far away from God. I am thankful (he said through tears) for this pastor who led me to the Lord that day 20 years ago, and for the counsel that he gave me. I was a miserable person though I lived in sin. God had never left me, and one month ago I made things right with Him. I have started holding Bible Studies in the area where I am working where there is no church. And God is blessing. I owe my salvation to God, but I am thankful to the one who brought me to Him.
--Man looks on the outward appearance; God looks on the heart.
29 years of carnality.
20 years of being a backslidden Christian. (The concept is taught in the Bible though the word is not found).
20 years of living in sin after he found Christ, and Christ found him.
20 years of chastisement from God--he was miserable during that time.

God knows the heart. Man does not. Man cannot judge. He does not know. The only thing that man can do is counsel a man on a one-to-one basis, for everyone's experience is different; that is everyone's relationship with God is different. God knows the heart; not man.

 

[Iconoclast]

Think that we all need to remember on this that once saved by grace of God, we are secured/anchored by the Cross, so behaviour should indeed reflect our new life in Christ, but odedience to the law did not save us, nor odedience keeps us saved, its in the Grace extended from God towards ud in the Cross!

The grace of God is extended to us,and results in keeping all lawful commands.grace and law are not set against one against the other.

 

[Iconoclast]

--Man looks on the outward appearance; God looks on the heart.
29 years of carnality.
20 years of being a backslidden Christian. (The concept is taught in the Bible though the word is not found).
20 years of living in sin after he found Christ, and Christ found him.
20 years of chastisement from God--he was miserable during that time.

This might be his thinking on it.....but it is unbiblical,inaccurate, but people like that nowadays.

 

[HankD]

The grace of God is extended to us,and results in keeping all lawful commands.grace and law are not set against one against the other.

Not against one another Iconclast. But mercy overcomes the law.

i.e. as an analogy - The aerodynamic law of rotation overcomes the law of gravity, the law of mercy supercedes judgment.

John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.​

James 2:13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.​

Psalm 130:3 If thou, LORD, shouldest mark iniquities, O Lord, who shall stand?

HankD​

 

[JesusFan]

Not against one another Iconclast. But mercy overcomes the law.

i.e. as an analogy - The aerodynamic law of rotation overcomes the law of gravity, the law of mercy supercedes judgment.

John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.​

James 2:13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.​

Psalm 130:3 If thou, LORD, shouldest mark iniquities, O Lord, who shall stand?

HankD​

Anyone here remember that Hebrews makes it Real clear that we as Christians are all undera MUCH surer/better Covenant, and that we are saved by grace, and live by faith in that Grace extended by God towards us?

 

[Dr. Walter]

I understand what you are saying, but this is what is true;
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit (practice) sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot (practice) sin, because he is born of God

First, lost people ARE not righteous and neither indeed can DO righteousness in God's estimation or sight.

Jesus speaking to the Rich young ruler said:

"There is NONE GOOD but one and that is God"

Paul said of the lost Gentile and Jew (Rom. 3:9)

"There is none that doeth good, no, not one"


Therefore, in contrast to the unrighteous (lost) the righteous (saved) are the ONLY ONES who do righteousness.


Now, the question to determine is not whether the saved person does righteousness, as he is the only who does righteousness in God's sight but HOW MUCH righteousness does he do.



In regard to saved people they ARE righteous but the lost ARE NOT righteous:

1. Their inward man is created in true holiness and righteousness - regeneration
2. They are righteous by legal position - justification



They ARE righteous but, what about DOING righteousness according to God's Law?

1. Sin is coming short of "God's glory" - His perfect holiness
2. Sin is violation of ONE point of His law - James 2:10
3. ONE violation of His law violates EVERY point of his law - James 2:10
4. "be ye therefore perfect EVEN AS your Father in heaven is PERFECT" is the law's standard of righteousnes, the glory of God, which is keeping every point of the law without violating one point.

There is not a JUST man on the earth that sinneth not

If "we" say we have no sin we decieve ourselves and the truth is not in "us."


CONCLUSION: How much righteousness is done by saved people? NEVER what the law demands, NEVER what is the "glory of God. NEVER "every point" of the law kept. NEVER do saved people reach "perfect EVEN AS your Father" in this life. So the real question is what kind of righteous can the saved person "do" if it is not the Law's standard?

ANSWER: We have no ability to do any good works, just the willingness but not the power (Gal. 5:16). The power is supplied by the indwelling Holy Spirit ACCORDING TO the measure of grace and faith given to every child of God in keeping with those works God hath before ordained for each life.

"For we are his workmanship created in Christ Jesus UNTO good works which God hath before ordained that we should walk in." - Eph. 2:10

"For it is God that worketh in you both to WILL and to DO of His good pleasure"

"And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith."

"Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;"

CONCLUSION: Every child of God differs in the righteousness they "do" which is never more than according to the measure that God worketh in them, the measure of grace given them, the measure of faith given them. There are those among God's children that have no greater measure of grace given them.

So, we see in "Lot" a lower level of DOING righteousness than what we see in "Abraham." Both "do righteousness" but not at the same level or extent and none can do anything apart from empowerment of the Holy Spirit or "without me YE can DO NOTHING."



Christ is the author and the finisher of our faith. What God begins in us he shall perform. In God's house he has vessels of earth, silver, gold, etc., according to His good pleasure. Growth is a matter of timing and bestowment of grace.

Our response is to "walk after the Spirit" and not after the flesh according to the measure of grace and faith given us.

 

[JesusFan]

First, lost people ARE not righteous and neither indeed can DO righteousness in God's estimation or sight.

Jesus speaking to the Rich young ruler said:

"There is NONE GOOD but one and that is God"

Paul said of the lost Gentile and Jew (Rom. 3:9)

"There is none that doeth good, no, not one"


Therefore, in contrast to the unrighteous (lost) the righteous (saved) are the ONLY ONES who do righteousness.


Now, the question to determine is not whether the saved person does righteousness, as he is the only who does righteousness in God's sight but HOW MUCH righteousness does he do.



In regard to saved people they ARE righteous but the lost ARE NOT righteous:

1. Their inward man is created in true holiness and righteousness - regeneration
2. They are righteous by legal position - justification



They ARE righteous but, what about DOING righteousness according to God's Law?

1. Sin is coming short of "God's glory" - His perfect holiness
2. Sin is violation of ONE point of His law - James 2:10
3. ONE violation of His law violates EVERY point of his law - James 2:10
4. "be ye therefore perfect EVEN AS your Father in heaven is PERFECT" is the law's standard of righteousnes, the glory of God, which is keeping every point of the law without violating one point.

There is not a JUST man on the earth that sinneth not

If "we" say we have no sin we decieve ourselves and the truth is not in "us."


CONCLUSION: How much righteousness is done by saved people? NEVER what the law demands, NEVER what is the "glory of God. NEVER "every point" of the law kept. NEVER do saved people reach "perfect EVEN AS your Father" in this life. So the real question is what kind of righteous can the saved person "do" if it is not the Law's standard?

ANSWER: We have no ability to do any good works, just the willingness but not the power (Gal. 5:16). The power is supplied by the indwelling Holy Spirit ACCORDING TO the measure of grace and faith given to every child of God in keeping with those works God hath before ordained for each life.

"For we are his workmanship created in Christ Jesus UNTO good works which God hath before ordained that we should walk in." - Eph. 2:10

"For it is God that worketh in you both to WILL and to DO of His good pleasure"

"And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith."

"Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;"

CONCLUSION: Every child of God differs in the righteousness they "do" which is never more than according to the measure that God worketh in them, the measure of grace given them, the measure of faith given them. There are those among God's children that have no greater measure of grace given them.

So, we see in "Lot" a lower level of DOING righteousness than what we see in "Abraham." Both "do righteousness" but not at the same level or extent and none can do anything apart from empowerment of the Holy Spirit or "without me YE can DO NOTHING."



Christ is the author and the finisher of our faith. What God begins in us he shall perform. In God's house he has vessels of earth, silver, gold, etc., according to His good pleasure. Growth is a matter of timing and bestowment of grace.

Our response is to "walk after the Spirit" and not after the flesh according to the measure of grace and faith given us.

The JUST shall live by faith...

When is a person declared to be in such stae of rightousness by God?

At the time of salvation, when the Grace from/of the cross was directly and fully applied on his behalf?
Or after a probation period, too see if he had done enough/well enough to qualify to receive it?

First view is the Bible, later RCC!

 

[DHK]

This might be his thinking on it.....but it is unbiblical,inaccurate, but people like that nowadays.

It is not his "thinking" Icono, it was his testimony. Either you can believe him or call him a liar. There is no in between position. When a man gives a testimony of the grace of God, and how He has worked in his life, do you automatically dismiss him and say--"that's what YOU say--My God says you can't have that testimony!!"
:tonofbricks: