Lordship salvation volume 3

[Alive in Christ]

Jesus fan...

I said

Originally Posted by Alive in Christ
Only if he chooses faith in Christ does he become one of the elect.

And you responded

Quote:
per the Bible...

God wants us to make our election and our calling secure and sure, by being found living and putting into practice in our new lives in Christ the things that He has ordained us to walk in!

I agree, but none of that has anything to do with getting saved, or staying saved.

Sounds like the elect of God shall be confirmed/shown as being such by the evidence of their faith in Christ and fruit, doesn't it?

No problem with that at all, but....if a believer should..for whatever reason..fall into inconsistant living, or go back to some bad things that he used to do as alost person, his salvation as a child of God is not disturbed in any way.

He was regenerated, and that is a (((FOREVER))) encounter. He has become an "unprofitable servant", and God will deal with him...but his standing as a child of God is permanant.

Amazing on how some here can take clear teaching of the Bible and make it seem to say something else, Eh?

Yep. Sure is.

 

[preacher4truth]

I have never said that repentance is not required. I have said that it is not taught in the epistles. The reason for that is that repentance is closely tied with faith. Repentance is the flip side of faith. You can't have one without the other.

Think of it. If "Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved," then what does that mean? Inherent in the word "call" is believe, have faith. When one puts their faith in the Lord Jesus Christ he shall be saved.
What is repentance? Repentance is a change of mind in respect to one's attitude toward God. Once a person was rebellious toward God. He repented. Now he is submissive to the will of God. That is repentance.
That is exactly what happens when one puts their faith in Christ. His life changes. Christ becomes Lord of his life. His old life is now changed. He has a new life, a new master. You see: faith and repentance are two sides of one coin. They go together. I never denied repentance. I said it is not taught in the epistles, because it doesn't have to be. Biblical faith encompasses repentance.

The above is a quote from DHK on Lordship Salvation Volume 2.

First thing, you have in the past taught against repentance, saying and implying it is not in the NT epistles, and is no longer commanded. That's untrue on both accounts, in that you say you've never believed this (when in fact you taught against it) and that it is not commanded any longer.

You're cherry-picking.

Repentance is an imperative.

We've shown it to you in Epistles and it is there. Your failure is in not knowing the epistles are in general instructions on living for the already saved. Thus the Gospel accounts, and Acts are all evangelistic in scope, and the repentance within them is to be preached and commanded today. Thus your false argument that it is not in the epistles misses the mark by miles, it's not a valid nor even an thought out argument. Someone taught it to you and you thought it sounded smart. Now you teach it too. You and whomever are in error here. Quit teaching it.

In a thread that has been closed a while back, you argued it (repentance) wasn't necessary or commanded, and an admininistrator came along and said that if it isn't part of the Gospel, it is incorrect and shut down the thread.

Now all of a sudden, after arguing that a believer can be saved and live in sin following this, that it's OK because we don't know their heart, and other nonsense, yet now you are arguing that their life does change?

At least you're starting to come along and change to truth. Get the repentance part down, your teaching there is off track.

 

[Luke2427]

There really is no debate. You confess Jesus Christ as Lord or you spend eternity in hell.
There is no salvation apart from yielding to the Lordship of Christ.


I don't know how one can be allowed to post on such a site as this who believes otherwise.

 

[HankD]

There really is no debate. You confess Jesus Christ as Lord or you spend eternity in hell.
There is no salvation apart from yielding to the Lordship of Christ.


I don't know how one can be allowed to post on such a site as this who believes otherwise.

The "argument" is not about the fact of the Lordship of Jesus Christ, even the lost will eventually acknowledge that fact.

We who are accused of "easy-believism" (well, this one anyway) believe that Jesus is Lord from the moment of the new birth.

That realization deepens as we walk by faith in the leading of the Spirit.

There is an even deeper relationship with God that no one has mentioned because we are presently stuck in the idea of the Lord-servant relationship in this ongoing dunnybrook.

God is our father, we are His sons.

Galatians 4

6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.​

We should not be serving Him out of a sense of servanthood duty but agape-love of our Father in heaven.​

1 John 4
15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.​

We should be walking in the Spirit because we love His fellowship and love to be with Him, walk with Him, talk with Him.​

We should be walking where He leads because we don't want to grieve the one we love.​

We do His will because we love Him who first loved us and laid down His life for us.​

If we are not perfected (matured) into this agape-love we are yet babes in Christ.​

NKJV 1 Corinthians
11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.​

Someone said that we should keep His commandments. The passage quoted was not about the commandments from the Law of Moses but Christ's commandments to those who love Him.​

1 John 4:21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.​

HankD​

 

[DHK]

There really is no debate. You confess Jesus Christ as Lord or you spend eternity in hell.
There is no salvation apart from yielding to the Lordship of Christ.


I don't know how one can be allowed to post on such a site as this who believes otherwise.

It should be a no brainer. But the LS advocates take the "discipleship" verses that Jesus commanded and make them requirements for salvation. This is what Paul Washer and Macarthur teaches.

For example, "He that forsaketh not all that he hath cannot be my disciple."
Since believer = disciple, you must forsake all that you have in order to be a believer. Dig deep enough in their lives and you find most of them to be hypocrites though, for they have never done this themselves.

 

[DHK]

The above is a quote from DHK on Lordship Salvation Volume 2.

First thing, you have in the past taught against repentance, saying and implying it is not in the NT epistles, and is no longer commanded. That's untrue on both accounts, in that you say you've never believed this (when in fact you taught against it) and that it is not commanded any longer.

As usual you don't read my posts very carefully. Neither do you read the Scriptures very carefully either. I have very carefully said that the epistles don't teach repentance as a requirement for the unsaved. You find that in the historical books of the Gospels and Acts, not in the doctrinal books of the epistles. There is a reason for that. That doesn't mean I am against repentance. That is only what you assumed. Again it is not commanded in the epistles. But there is a reason for that.

Repentance is an imperative.

I never said it wasn't. I said it wasn't taught in the epistles. I also said why, but you didn't listen to that. You were hung up only on one thing so you ignored why it wasn't taught.

We've shown it to you in Epistles and it is there.

NO, in fact, you never did. Every verse you quoted was directed was to believers. There wasn't one that was directed for an unbeliever to repent. There are many verses that teach that a man is justified by faith; saved by faith; etc. But not one that states that he needs to repent to be saved.

Your failure is in not knowing the epistles are in general instructions on living for the already saved.

The gospel is still in the epistles.
"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."
"Therefore being justified by faith we have peace with God."
--There are countless such verses found in the epistles. They all deal with faith, not with repentance.

Thus the Gospel accounts, and Acts are all evangelistic in scope, and the repentance within them is to be preached and commanded today.

The gospel accounts were pre-cross.
The Acts, much of the time were directed to Jews. It is a book of history dealing with the "acts" of the Apostles--a transitional book. It had a different purpose than laying down doctrine.

Thus your false argument that it is not in the epistles misses the mark by miles, it's not a valid nor even an thought out argument.

This is your opinion of one that has not thought things through.

Someone taught it to you and you thought it sounded smart. Now you teach it too. You and whomever are in error here.

No true.

Quit teaching it.

Does it bother you when I teach the truth, especially when you can't refute it.

In a thread that has been closed a while back, you argued it (repentance) wasn't necessary or commanded, and an admininistrator came along and said that if it isn't part of the Gospel, it is incorrect and shut down the thread.

He shut down the thread for another reason. I never stated that repentance isn't necessary. Repentance isn't commanded in the epistles but it is necessary. You just haven't figured it out yet. But if you had read my posts you would know by now.

Now all of a sudden, after arguing that a believer can be saved and live in sin following this, that it's OK because we don't know their heart, and other nonsense, yet now you are arguing that their life does change?

I have never changed my position. You don't read my posts very well.

At least you're starting to come along and change to truth. Get the repentance part down, your teaching there is off track.

Here is what I have maintained all along. Read carefully.

Repentance was preached in the gospels and in the book of Acts. John the Baptist preached a message of repentance. He demanded fruit of repentance before he would baptize them.

We don't see that in Acts 2. They believed. They were baptized. They accepted Christ as their Savior and they were baptized, and then they were discipled after they were saved.
That also is verified in the Great Commission. Teach the Gospel. They get saved. Then they are baptized. The teach them all things whatsoever I have commanded you (discipleship). Discipleship always follows salvation.

What is faith in Christ? When a man puts their faith in Christ, He accepts him as Lord of His life. He now has a new master. The object of his faith is Christ. His faith is no longer in the world; in sin. It is in Christ. He has become a new creature where the old things of this world are passed away and he is a new creature in Christ. He has believed in Christ as His Lord. (This is not Lordship salvation).

What is repentance? Repentance is a change of mind with respect to one's attitude toward God. When one gets saved his attitude toward God changes. He no longer has a rebellious attitude toward God as he formerly had, but now is submissive to God and his will. That is repentance.

You can't have faith without repentance. If you study the two definitions they are very close to each other. When a person puts their faith in Christ they have repented at the same time. Repentance is the other side of the coin of faith. When one puts their faith in Christ they must at the same time repent.
Thus in the epistles "repentance" is not commanded because it doesn't have to be. It is implied in the word "faith." You cannot "believe" without repenting. It is impossible to do so.

 

[Luke2427]

The "argument" is not about the fact of the Lordship of Jesus Christ, even the lost will eventually acknowledge that fact.

We who are accused of "easy-believism" (well, this one anyway) believe that Jesus is Lord from the moment of the new birth.

That realization deepens as we walk by faith in the leading of the Spirit.

There is an even deeper relationship with God that no one has mentioned because we are presently stuck in the idea of the Lord-servant relationship in this ongoing dunnybrook.

God is our father, we are His sons.

Galatians 4

6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.​

We should not be serving Him out of a sense of servanthood duty but agape-love of our Father in heaven.​

1 John 4
15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.​

We should be walking in the Spirit because we love His fellowship and love to be with Him, walk with Him, talk with Him.​

We should be walking where He leads because we don't want to grieve the one we love.​

We do His will because we love Him who first loved us and laid down His life for us.​

If we are not perfected (matured) into this agape-love we are yet babes in Christ.​

NKJV 1 Corinthians
11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.​

Someone said that we should keep His commandments. The passage quoted was not about the commandments from the Law of Moses but Christ's commandments to those who love Him.​

1 John 4:21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.​

HankD​

Hank, I know you mean well, and I know that this feels very right to you, but what you are saying is bad wrong.

It is not that there are not other relationships with God that we enjoy besides that defined by his Lordship. There are. It is not that you are wrong about these relationships existing and being there for us to enjoy.

But his Lordship is the PRIMARY relationship. Everything else is defined by it.

He is Lord who is our Father.
He is Lord who is our Savior.
He is Lord who is our Friend, etc, etc, etc...

All other relationships flow out of his Lordship.

Just one of many proofs for this is the fact that in the New Testament Jesus is called a Savior less than twenty times. He is called Lord more than 700 times.

Idolatry is not just worshiping some God with a different name.

Idolatry is also making the true God something other than he is.

This is the great sin of our culture.

You don't know anything about God until you know FIRST and FOREMOST know him as LORD.

"The beginning of knowledge is the fear of the LORD."

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK,
you said;about repentance;

We don't see that in Acts 2. They believed. They were baptized. They accepted Christ as their Savior and they were baptized, and then they were discipled after they were saved.

DHK.....you do not see it in Acts 2...but P4T......and all the rest of us see it right here;

37Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

There it is DHK....they repented and believed....who would have thought
:thumbs::laugh::laugh::thumbs:

 

[DHK]

DHK,
you said;about repentance;



DHK.....you do not see it in Acts 2...but P4T......and all the rest of us see it right here;


There it is DHK....they repented and believed....who would have thought
:thumbs::laugh::laugh::thumbs:

Read all of it.
The final word is:
Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. (Acts 2:41)

 

[Luke2427]

Read all of it.
The final word is:
Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. (Acts 2:41)

You cannot admit when you've been proven wrong, can you?

 

[preacher4truth]

DHK,
you said;about repentance;



DHK.....you do not see it in Acts 2...but P4T......and all the rest of us see it right here;


There it is DHK....they repented and believed....who would have thought
:thumbs::laugh::laugh::thumbs:

Yep.

DHK wants it his way though. You know, just believe, and that means you've repented too, because DHK says so. Because DHK fails to see the epistles are for the most part for Christian conduct, Acts and the Gospels are evangelistic.

He doesn't count what is at stake in his easy-believism error; unrepentant sinners who said a prayer. The adulterer, fornicator, thief, murderer, sodomite, drunkard, just tell Him you believe and you know, carry-on with all that and see you in heaven!!!

When they say "but should I not repent of my sins, as the folks in Scripture did too, and believe that God leads me to repentance, as in Romans 2:4, and therein show a changed life?" "No NO NO!!!!" says DHK. "Thats the truth that P4T, Iconoclast, Luke2427, freeatlast, Convicted1 and others preach, just believe, you're not commanded to repent after the evangelistic Gospels and Acts, we throw those commands in them to repent out these days, I know better than that, and I am never wrong!!!!!!!!!"

 

[freeatlast]

You cannot admit when you've been proven wrong, can you?

NEVER! :tonofbricks:

 

[DHK]

You cannot admit when you've been proven wrong, can you?

Repentance is a strong theme throughout the Book of Acts. I have already admitted that. But it is not emphasized in the epistles. Notice how they came back with the book of Acts only to embarrass themselves.

 

[preacher4truth]

Repentance is a strong theme throughout the Book of Acts. I have already admitted that. But it is not emphasized in the epistles. Notice how they came back with the book of Acts only to embarrass themselves.

Embarrassed? LOL!!!!

You show your inability to distinguish the purposes of the epistles and Gospel accounts and Acts.

You're wrong. Again. :thumbsup:

 

[DHK]

Embarrassed? LOL!!!!

You show your inability to distinguish the purposes of the epistles and Gospel accounts and Acts.

You're wrong. Again. :thumbsup:

What an embarrassing post, and one that lacks much knowledge for you. You have an index in your Bible. You can look up the books of the Bible. Would you like me to list the books of the Bible and list which ones are the gospels, Acts, and the epistles for you?
Yes I can distinguish between them. And I know the purposes of each of them.

 

[preacher4truth]

What an embarrassing post, and one that lacks much knowledge for you. You have an index in your Bible. You can look up the books of the Bible. Would you like me to list the books of the Bible and list which ones are the gospels, Acts, and the epistles for you?
Yes I can distinguish between them. And I know the purposes of each of them.

No, unfortunately, you don't know the purposes of them. I do however apologize that my post exposed and embarrassed you.

 

[DHK]

No, unfortunately, you don't know the purposes of them. I do however apologize that my post exposed and embarrassed you.

If you are going to sit behind a keyboard and make false accusations, and take this thread down a nasty rabbit trail, it will have to be shut down, or I will ask another moderator to intervene. Do not tell me what I know and don't know for you do not have God's knowledge.

Consider this conversation closed.
Go back to the OP. If you continue in this vain it will either end up in posts being edited/deleted/ or the thread shut down.

 

[preacher4truth]

If you are going to sit behind a keyboard and make false accusations, and take this thread down a nasty rabbit trail, it will have to be shut down, or I will ask another moderator to intervene. Do not tell me what I know and don't know for you do not have God's knowledge.

Consider this conversation closed.
Go back to the OP. If you continue in this vain it will either end up in posts being edited/deleted/ or the thread shut down.

Yes, I see, you can tell me what I do not know, yet when I do the same I am threatened with your authority.

 

[DHK]

Yes, I see, you can tell me what I do not know, yet when I do the same I am threatened with your authority.

Once more. consider this conversation closed.
Address the OP

 

[JesusFan]

Jesus fan...

I said



And you responded



I agree, but none of that has anything to do with getting saved, or staying saved.



No problem with that at all, but....if a believer should..for whatever reason..fall into inconsistant living, or go back to some bad things that he used to do as alost person, his salvation as a child of God is not disturbed in any way.

{quote] We all still have to daily deal with our "old nature/sin principle" that will fight against obeying God
That is why we need to realise we need to rely upon jesus and the HS on a daily basis to overcome in life, and would say that there thoguh will come a time when we will 'come to our senses" while in midst of sinning, and confess/repent and come back to God!

I do NOT hold to LDS as some have represented it here on the BB, nor to "easy believism"...

Hold that when one has been born again bythe Grca eand Will of God, thatwe are indeed new creatures in Christ, and that our salvation happened at a specfic point in time, and that after that, we should be learning to walk and grow more up into Chrsit image on a daily basis...

One can still though be tempted, can even fall in sinning at times, but during those times. will experience conviction to confess/repent and escape those 'besitting sins"

what I disagree with LDS is that I still hold there can be periods in our lives when might fall back to old habits and ways, disagree with "easy believism" in that the person does not worry and can still be 'saved' if NO conviction or repentance/confession sometime!

He was regenerated, and that is a (((FOREVER))) encounter. He has become an "unprofitable servant", and God will deal with him...but his standing as a child of God is permanant.



Yep. Sure is.[/QUOTE]