Lordship salvation volume 3

I think those verses pose a good question and to be honest they could go either way. Here is one reason;
Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

It would be easy to argue that these men were denying the Lord before men and that would certainly be a very good argument which would mean they were lost.

However for the sake of argument let's say they are saved as you contend. How does what they were doing go against Lordship salvation?

 

Belief is not enough for salvation. It never has been, faith does not save. Note the text doesn't call them "believers," as winman illogically concludes in his inference, which brings with it all sorts of eisegetical implications.

They also obviously never repented. Their denial to follow Him is telltale.

 

You live in a free country where your salvation comes "cheap." You don't pay much of a price for confessing that Christ is Lord. At that time the chief leaders would have paid a great price, possibly death. You can't judge them unless you have walked in their shoes. Nicodemus was a "secret believer" for much of his life. He remained in the Sanhedrin. Had he confessed Christ as Lord immediately he would have been kicked out of the Sanhedrin immediately, and immediately faced severe persecution even as Paul began to receive once he confessed Christ as Lord.

Once a person confesses Christ as Lord in either communist China or in Russia they are persecuted. Thus they live underground. There are flourishing churches, but they are underground. They dare not confess Christ as Lord openly.

In many Islamic countries (not all), but nations like Saudi Arabia, it is not wise to try and confess Christ as Lord. In any of these nations in a converted Muslim confesses Christ as Lord he is sure to meet the death penalty. They live secretly, away from their Muslim families and relatives.

Don't judge until you have walked in their shoes. Don't take your freedom for granted.

 

First of all my salvation didn't come cheap. It came at great cost.

Secondly, I am not making the judgments you're bringin in here, you are.

My point is belief is not enough. The Scriptures support this.

Although I do agree about the severity of persecution that comes to those within other countries who confess Christ. That's a given.

True believers in Scripture paid willingly via persecution for believing. Hiding in an underground church isn't denying Christ publicly as these Jews did.

And don't judge me unitl you've walked in my shoes.

Again my point: Belief is not enough as faith does not make one a believer unto salvation, as faith cannot save.

 

DHK I certainly agree with you on this that a person can be saved and not disclose it for various reasons, some of which you mentioned, and I too disagree with preacher4truth on his interpretation of these men's state.

However I do not agree that he was judging anyone. Holding a view and applying it even if incorrect does not necessarily constitute improper judging from a biblical standpoint. We are told to judge not until... and we are also told to judge one another. It is never to never judge, just why. To judge someone improperly from a biblical standpoint one has to look down on them like the Pharisees did towards the common people. Judging is not taking what one perceives as truth and applying that belief even if the understanding held is incorrect. Improper judging biblically is always done from an improper motive not just an incorrect conclusion.

Just because someone does not confess their faith to the world does not mean they are lost. In the case of the men spoken of in that passage my guess is they most likely did speak of it between themselves once they felt someone else was also a believer just like the underground churches in some other countries do.

I have never understood how anyone can hold to the idea we are never to judge when they themselves have to judge to rebuke someone else for it. It is no different then when the liberals tell others that they should be tolerant of their views and they (the liberals) are not tolerant of others.

 

The point is, these chief rulers were not 100% committed to God. The scriptures say they LOVED the praise of men more than the praise of God. Yet the scriptures say they believed on Jesus. They were believers. And they did not deny Jesus, they did not confess him, this is not the same thing.

I disagree with P4T, we are saved by trusting in Jesus alone to save us, not faith plus works, or faith plus some sort of commitment. If so, these men would not be called believers.

 

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

Salvation is not some sort of contract where Jesus promises to save you if you promise to quit sinning. That is not a free gift. Man of himself has no power to quit sinning. It is when we believe on Jesus we receive the Holy Spirit that works in us to turn us from sin. Our spirit is saved, but we retain the flesh with it's lusts and desires. Our degree of success over sin depends on our willingness to submit to the Spirit. But if we submit to the flesh we sin.
Anybody who promises to quit sinning is going to be found a liar.

 

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

And if the Holy Spirit does not so work in us, what then? What conclusion should one draw?

I wonder if anyone has read A. W. Pink's Studies in saving Faith, written in the 1920s. It can be found here:-
http://www.godrules.net/library/pink/247pink1.htm

Here is an extract. Warning: Pink does not mince words:-

 

This LS theology must be a direct off-shoot of Calvinism. Pink has it wrong in so much of what you have quoted above.

Again, sola fide is thrown out the window.
Salvation is by faith and faith alone. That is one of the basic premises on which we stand. Those who do not believe so deny the word of God.

There being justified by faith we have peace with God.
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.
--Surely Pink would know better than this.
Next he says:

If repentance is sorrowing for sin then Judas Iscariot would be a saved man, for that is what he did. He threw the money back into the temple. He repented and went and hung himself. His repentance was that he felt sorry for what he had done. But that is not Biblical repentance; it is Pink's version of repentance though.

I certainly wouldn't follow this man's theology.

 

Some believe in vain....not a saving belief:thumbsup:

 

Belief (faith) does not save.

But continue to misinterpret your alleged "multitudes."

 

Exactly...... :thumbsup:

 

You read into these verses what they do not say. These verses do not say these believers were unsaved, that would contradict dozens of scriptures. It only says Jesus did not commit himself or trust himself to them.

Was Peter a believer? YES. Did Jesus say the apostles were clean (except Judas) at the last supper? YES. They were true believers, their sins were forgiven, yet a few hours later Peter denied Jesus. True believers fail, they cannot always be trusted.

This does not argue for you, but against you. No one is saved because we are always faithful to Jesus, we are saved because Jesus is always faithful to us. If a man believes on Jesus he is saved, Jesus cannot break his promise.

 

It depends on what you mean by believing on Jesus. The devils believe and tremble.

 

:thumbs: Yep! Exactly! :thumbs:

 

The devils believe Jesus is the Son of God, but they cannot believe Jesus died for their sins. Jesus did not die for the angel's sins, and there is no promise to angels that they will be saved if they believe on Jesus.

But man is different. Jesus did die for our sins, and has promised to save any man who believes on him for salvation.

We cannot add to what Jesus has done. He does not need our help to save us. All we need do is completely trust him alone for salvation.

Lordship Salvation is works salvation. As some have said here, they do not believe trusting Jesus is enough. They believe we have to be obedient to be saved. Good luck with that, it only takes one sin to come short of the glory of God, just as Adam only had to sin once to die.

I compare it to being in a fire in a tall building. Firemen below call for you to jump and promise to catch you with a net. You have to let go and jump. Likewise, we need to simply cast ourselves on Jesus, we need to let go and jump, and depend on Jesus ONLY to catch us, to save us.

The devils cannot have saving faith, there is no promise to save them, there is no promise given them to depend or believe upon.

We can only have saving faith because we have a promise to save us to depend upon.

Do you understand that?