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was Apostle John referring to Saints/Sinners In 1 John?
- Thread starter JesusFan
- Start date
freeatlast
New Member
When he talked about IF we say no sin in us, and IF we confess our sins to the Lord?
The passage has been miss-applied for years by Christians because they do not study and see who is being spoken to and why. Many pastors are guilty of not teaching this book correctly and especially these passages, confusing the word of God.
John is talking to the saved about the false teachings of Gnosticism that had crept into the church. By the way it is still strong today in the church. Some here hold forms of it.
The passage in 1 John 1:9 and 10 is about a lost person not a saved one. The saved are already forgiven. The lost deny their sin.
He is saying if we are willing to confess our sin He is faithful to forgive us (save us speaking of the lost)
Verse 10 affirms this. One of the things that the Gnostics taught was that the spirit is pure and flesh is sinful and they had no sin because spirit and flesh could not touch one another. So they taught what they did in the flesh did not touch their spirit so they had no sin because they were spiritual being followers of the spiritual Jesus. They were sin deniers and lost and John is trying to combat that false teaching.
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preacher4truth
Active Member
I disagree. This entire letter is written to the saved.
FAL, although I appreciate zeal to not sin, and that you are eager to tell others how youu go days at a time with never sinning, that does not in turn make the parts of this passage you want to apply to the lost then apply to them. This is simply to protect this ideology of yours, and alleged application to the lost as true.
By the way, I have yet found any commentators state this is referring to the lost. The context and intended audience makes no change at all from saved to lost, although there are references to what a saved person looks like, and what a lost person looks like. But much of this has to do with those within a gnostic religion when referring to the lost, or those who have denied the truth.
The "we" from vs. 1 to vs. 10 are all to the saved, to the church. As a matter of fact, this entire Epistle is to the church. There are other passages that speak of the sin of believers, the church, in the Epistles, and forgiveness, restoration & c. I'm of the understand that you would also apply your ideology here to interpret them all through your same lens.
I will not, nor do I see in Scripture any support for a fallen brother or sister, to cast them as then "lost" and needing to be saved because they've sinned. This is unrealistic and is not Scriptural. If they have lived a lifestyle of sin, that is a different story altogether.
John here is showing what our walk is like, it is of repentance, and confessing, and washing, and fellowship. This is the Walk and the Christian life, a lifestyle and cycle of repentance, cleansing, fellowship.
FAL, although I appreciate zeal to not sin, and that you are eager to tell others how youu go days at a time with never sinning, that does not in turn make the parts of this passage you want to apply to the lost then apply to them. This is simply to protect this ideology of yours, and alleged application to the lost as true.
By the way, I have yet found any commentators state this is referring to the lost. The context and intended audience makes no change at all from saved to lost, although there are references to what a saved person looks like, and what a lost person looks like. But much of this has to do with those within a gnostic religion when referring to the lost, or those who have denied the truth.
The "we" from vs. 1 to vs. 10 are all to the saved, to the church. As a matter of fact, this entire Epistle is to the church. There are other passages that speak of the sin of believers, the church, in the Epistles, and forgiveness, restoration & c. I'm of the understand that you would also apply your ideology here to interpret them all through your same lens.
I will not, nor do I see in Scripture any support for a fallen brother or sister, to cast them as then "lost" and needing to be saved because they've sinned. This is unrealistic and is not Scriptural. If they have lived a lifestyle of sin, that is a different story altogether.
John here is showing what our walk is like, it is of repentance, and confessing, and washing, and fellowship. This is the Walk and the Christian life, a lifestyle and cycle of repentance, cleansing, fellowship.
preacher4truth
Active Member
Also, the beloved John MacArthur Jr. also states this is in reference to believers, not unbelievers:
- Peace
There is no way a forgive (sic) person can then be reversed, as it were, out of that condition of forgiveness and held before the judgment bar of God to pay ultimately for his own sins. I just want to make it very clear that all our sins are forgiven and yet in spite of this gracious, merciful generosity on God's part toward all of those who repent and embrace Jesus Christ we are still, according to 1 John 1, we are still known as Christians because we continue to confess our sins. And that is what verse 9 is saying, if we are confessing our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. And we looked at that in some detail and pointed out that is not a command, that is a statement of fact. True believers are habitual confessors who therefore demonstrate that their sins are continually being forgiven. We are still known as penitent. We are still known as eager to repent, as confessors of sin.
- Peace
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freeatlast
New Member
I disagree. This entire letter is written to the saved.
FAL, although I appreciate zeal to not sin, and that you are eager to tell others how youu go days at a time with never sinning, that does not in turn make the parts of this passage you want to apply to the lost then apply to them. This is simply to protect this ideology of yours, and alleged application to the lost as true.
By the way, I have yet found any commentators state this is referring to the lost. The context and intended audience makes no change at all from saved to lost, although there are references to what a saved person looks like, and what a lost person looks like. But much of this has to do with those within a gnostic religion when referring to the lost, or those who have denied the truth.
The "we" from vs. 1 to vs. 10 are all to the saved, to the church. As a matter of fact, this entire Epistle is to the church. There are other passages that speak of the sin of believers, the church, in the Epistles, and forgiveness, restoration & c. I'm of the understand that you would also apply your ideology here to interpret them all through your same lens.
I will not, nor do I see in Scripture any support for a fallen brother or sister, to cast them as then "lost" and needing to be saved because they've sinned. This is unrealistic and is not Scriptural. If they have lived a lifestyle of sin, that is a different story altogether.
John here is showing what our walk is like, it is of repentance, and confessing, and washing, and fellowship. This is the Walk and the Christian life, a lifestyle and cycle of repentance, cleansing, fellowship.
What I said is almost eaxctly what MacArthur teaches and he is not alone in this.
If you are interested go here http://www.gty.org/resources/sermons/scripture/1-john and youy can download the messages, just listen or read the text of the messages.
Here is a small portion;
Now I want to talk to you a little bit about confession. I want to borrow the phrase at the beginning of verse 9, "If we confess our sins, then we are the ones that He is faithful and righteous to forgive and to cleanse." If we confess our sins. The confession of sin is absolutely basic to salvation. And yet again there are people who teach that you don't have to confess your sins to be saved. You don't have to confess your sins to be saved. All you have to do is believe in Jesus. How wrong that is. That particular error continues to rear its ugly head even after we have endeavored to deal with it in the past in the books I wrote called The Gospel According to Jesusand The Gospel According to the Apostles.
freeatlast
New Member
Also, the beloved John MacArthur Jr. also states this is in reference to believers, not unbelievers:
- Peace
I don't disagree with that statement, but the passage is not given to teach the saved to confess. The saved already confess. The passage is speaking about the lost (Gnostics) who have to accept that they are sinners and confess such which they denied.
preacher4truth
Active Member
I don't disagree with that statement, but the passage is not given to teach the saved to confess. The saved already confess. The passage is speaking about the lost (Gnostics) who have to accept that they are sinners and confess such which they denied.
I have to disagree with you here, as Epistles are in fact instructions for Christians by their very nature. Making forgive to mean "save" ("save us speaking of the lost") strictly as you've stated in your first reply is incorrect. It is talking specifically of believers here, not the lost, as the "we" in context belongs to the recipients of this Epistle in its context and is supported by the context.
Certainly others have taught believers how to walk with God, and from this text also, how the believer is to walk, confess, be cleansed, maintain clean fellowship with God. It has certainly been preached from pulpits and has been a great comfort for those new believers and those saved longer. Certainly the believers here also were taught this, and this is instruction for them, and is also used comparatively against false teaching.
The "we" never makes a transition to the lost, or to the gnostics, though it certainly is in reference and opposition to their false teaching. It is also a subjunctive mood, a probable action, which only applies then to the saved, as this is a practice of the redeemed, that they live this lifestyle, they are the ones who confess sin. This subjunctive mood then isolates this to the saved. Can a gnostic check in, see this, recognize being lost, and needing to be redeemed? Most certainly this can happen, but this is still written to and for the saved as instruction and also as confirmation of their being born again and of assurance of salvation.
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I have to disagree with you here, as Epistles are in fact instructions for Christians by their very nature. Making forgive to mean "save" ("save us speaking of the lost") strictly as you've stated in your first reply is incorrect. It is talking specifically of believers here, not the lost, as the "we" in context belongs to the recipients of this Epistle in its context and is supported by the context.
Certainly others have taught believers how to walk with God, and from this text also, how the believer is to walk, confess, be cleansed, maintain clean fellowship with God. It has certainly been preached from pulpits and has been a great comfort for those new believers and those saved longer. Certainly the believers here also were taught this, and this is instruction for them, and is also used comparatively against false teaching.
The "we" never makes a transition to the lost, or to the gnostics, though it certainly is in reference and opposition to their false teaching. It is also a subjunctive mood, a probable action, which only applies then to the saved, as this is a practice of the redeemed, that they live this lifestyle, they are the ones who confess sin. This subjunctive mood then isolates this to the saved. Can a gnostic check in, see this, recognize being lost, and needing to be redeemed? Most certainly this can happen, but this is still written to and for the saved as instruction and also as confirmation of their being born again and of assurance of salvation.
Just a question on this discussion!
Does Apostle John, or ANY other Apostolic author use same Greek term for"children" to refer to ANY other than genuine believers, aka Gnostics?
freeatlast
New Member
The answer is yes but usually it has a modifier or context will rule. The thing is that John is writing to a church (group of believers) to combat the teachings of the Gnostics. That is why he says in the first chapter;Just a question on this discussion!
Does Apostle John, or ANY other Apostolic author use same Greek term for"children" to refer to ANY other than genuine believers, aka Gnostics?
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
Another false teaching of the Gnostics was that while they accepted Jesus they denied that He could come in the flesh because of their false belief of separation of spirit and flesh. They taught the spirit is good and flesh is evil and God being spirit could not take on a body which was evil. John is trying to stop these false teachings from spreading.
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preacher4truth
Active Member
Just a question on this discussion!
Does Apostle John, or ANY other Apostolic author use same Greek term for "children" to refer to ANY other than genuine believers, aka Gnostics?
Not at all.
The passage here is for believers and believers only as in the term "we."
I think what I see here in the very first appeal of brother freeatlast is that he states it is strictly about the lost.
Here is what he said:
The passage has been miss-applied for years by Christians because they do not study and see who is being spoken to and why...The passage in 1 John 1:9 and 10 is about a lost person not a saved one. The saved are already forgiven. The lost deny their sin. He is saying if we are willing to confess our sin He is faithful to forgive us (save us speaking of the lost) Verse 10 affirms this.
He also reiterates it here:
I don't disagree with that statement, but the passage is not given to teach the saved to confess. The saved already confess. The passage is speaking about the lost (Gnostics) who have to accept that they are sinners and confess such which they denied.
Although I appreciate the zeal here against sin, this is absolutely an incorrect assessment. The mood supports it, and there is no transition from "we" (believers) to the lost whatsoever.
I do, however, see some support that this is for believers from freeatlast by his first line in his second quote.
No one, including MacArthur, nor any other sound bible commentators I've searched believe this is restricted to the lost, but preach it is the behavior of believers, and of believers alone. Can it be applied to the lost, by application? Certainly. But we must remember that is only application, and it is not the interpetation of the text. This is then the correct interpretation of this passage; this passage is for the saved.
- Peace
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The answer is yes but usually it has a modifier or context will rule. The thing is that John is writing to a church (group of believers) to combat the teachings of the Gnostics. That is why he says in the first chapter;
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
Another false teaching of the Gnostics was that while they accepted Jesus they denied that He could come in the flesh because of their false belief of separation of spirit and flesh. They taught the spirit is good and flesh is evil and God being spirit could not take on a body which was evil. John is trying to stop these false teachings from spreading.
EVERY time that Greek word is used by ANY author though in the NT always refers to those saved by grace of God, little children, those who Christ died for and made right with God!
freeatlast
New Member
EVERY time that Greek word is used by ANY author though in the NT always refers to those saved by grace of God, little children, those who Christ died for and made right with God!
Do you read what people write or do you just respond? Read what I wrote.
In post #5 FAL said some teach "You don't have to confess your sins to be saved. All you have to do is believe in Jesus.".
Who teaches this? If you believe the gospel, then you must confess you are a sinner.
1 Cor 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
How can you believe that Jesus died for your sins and not confess you are a sinner? That is impossible.
If some preacher neglects to teach that Jesus died for our sins, FAL might have a point, but I have never heard any preacher do this.
All persons who have heard the true gospel and believe on Jesus have confessed they are a sinner, it is impossible to do otherwise.
Who teaches this? If you believe the gospel, then you must confess you are a sinner.
1 Cor 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
How can you believe that Jesus died for your sins and not confess you are a sinner? That is impossible.
If some preacher neglects to teach that Jesus died for our sins, FAL might have a point, but I have never heard any preacher do this.
All persons who have heard the true gospel and believe on Jesus have confessed they are a sinner, it is impossible to do otherwise.
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preacher4truth
Active Member
In post #5 FAL said some teach "You don't have to confess your sins to be saved. All you have to do is believe in Jesus.".
Who teaches this? If you believe the gospel, then you must confess you are a sinner.
1 Cor 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
How can you believe that Jesus died for your sins and not confess you are a sinner? That is impossible.
If some preacher neglects to teach that Jesus died for our sins, FAL might have a point, but I have never heard any preacher do this.
All persons who have heard the true gospel and believe on Jesus have confessed they are a sinner, it is impossible to do otherwise.
Try grasping the context winman.
He means "OTHERS" teach this, not him. The context shows this.
You are consistently missing meaning, intent, context. Then you go on a rant oblivious to the intent, missing it by miles, and stay there for several posts in response.
Try grasping the context winman.
He means "OTHERS" teach this, not him. The context shows this.
You are consistently missing meaning, intent, context. Then you go on a rant oblivious to the intent, missing it by miles, and stay there for several posts in response.
You are guilty of what you accuse me of, I said that FAL said "some teach" that we do not have to confess our sins to be saved. Read more carefully.
I have never heard or known of any preacher who says it is not necessary to confess we are sinners to be saved. Perhaps he can provide some proof for this statement.
Now, there are those who teach we must add our own works to the finished work of Christ to be saved, and this is my objection to Lordship Salvation.
But that is off topic. 1 Jn 1:8-9 is written to believers. All believers sin at times and we must confess our sins to maintain "fellowship" with him.
This is the topic of chapter 1, fellowship. It is mentioned in verses 3, 6, and 7. If we sin (and we do) then we are out of fellowship, not lost.
preacher4truth
Active Member
You are guilty of what you accuse me of, I said that FAL said "some teach" that we do not have to confess our sins to be saved. Read more carefully.
I have never heard or known of any preacher who says it is not necessary to confess we are sinners to be saved. Perhaps he can provide some proof for this statement.
Now, there are those who teach we must add our own works to the finished work of Christ to be saved, and this is my objection to Lordship Salvation.
But that is off topic. 1 Jn 1:8-9 is written to believers. All believers sin at times and we must confess our sins to maintain "fellowship" with him.
This is the topic of chapter 1, fellowship. It is mentioned in verses 3, 6, and 7. If we sin (and we do) then we are out of fellowship, not lost.
Prattle.
You clearly took him out of context in your first line.
The rest of your ramble continues this.
And if there are no Gnostics in our area of the world, we can just rip this book out of our Bibles? Right? It has no application to us, for it only applies to gnostics.The passage has been miss-applied for years by Christians because they do not study and see who is being spoken to and why. Many pastors are guilty of not teaching this book correctly and especially these passages, confusing the word of God.
John is talking to the saved about the false teachings of Gnosticism that had crept into the church.
Prattle.
You clearly took him out of context in your first line.
The rest of your ramble continues this.
Baloney, he was quoting a sermon he was in agreement with.
I simply want to know who these false teachers are that teach we do not have to confess we are sinners to be saved, just simply believe on Jesus.
freeatlast
New Member
And if there are no Gnostics in our area of the world, we can just rip this book out of our Bibles? Right? It has no application to us, for it only applies to gnostics.
Well I suppose if you feel that way that is your choice, but I choose keep mine in tact and to believe that;
All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
The only thing is that Gnosticism is alive and well around the world and in the churches.
freeatlast
New Member
Baloney, he was quoting a sermon he was in agreement with.
I simply want to know who these false teachers are that teach we do not have to confess we are sinners to be saved, just simply believe on Jesus.
winn you keep adding to what was said. First off what I wrote was a quote of another. This is what scripture says;
Acts; repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. Romans That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. No confession of sin there No place in the bible does it say to confess our sin to get saved. If you look at those who get saved in the bible there is not a single mention of such a teaching. The eunuch and Philip no confession, the jailer, no confession, Paul no confession, there is no call to confess sin to be saved.
This thing of today adding to scripture is rampant and totally out of control. Certainly godly sorrow over our sin leads us to repentance but there is no call for confessing sin to get saved. At the moment any person comes to repentance towards God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ they are saved.
A lost person could set down and write out all the sins they have ever done and then name them one by one and still not get saved. Neither a sinners prayer or confession of sin will get a person saved. That is works salvation.
It is true that we come because we are sinners and we need forgiveness, but there is no call for confession of our sin to get saved. 1John 1:9 is not a formula on how to get saved. It is talking about the false teaching of the Gnostics who deny that they have ever sinned. If a person thinks they have never sinned then they will never come to repentance and faith. The Greek word we call confess means "to say the same thing."
When I got saved I did not come before God and start naming my sins. I just turned to God because I was tired of my sin and accdepted Jesus as my Lord (faith). The same is for anyone. Now I admitt that some may actually name their sins but not because they have to, to get saved.
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