was Apostle John referring to Saints/Sinners In 1 John?

[DHK]

The only thing is that Gnosticism is alive and well around the world and in the churches.

We don't have any gnosticism in our church. Do you have in yours?
Please give an example.

 

[freeatlast]

We don't have any gnosticism in our church. Do you have in yours?
Please give an example.

Yea right! I have never seen any church where there is not some form of gnosticism in someone. The person may not know it is a form of gnosticism but they have it. It is like wicca. Most churches, probably all, today have wicca in them in some form.

 

[Winman]

FAL, I don't know what goes on in your church, but I have always attended IFB churches and have heard the gospel preached hundreds of times. We always teach that a person must realize they are a sinner and cannot earn salvation. We teach that the wages of sin is death, and that if you sin even ONCE in your lifetime that you must pay the penalty and go to hell for your sin. We teach that Jesus died for ALL our sins, past, present, and future, and that if a person will trust Christ, ALL their sins will be forgiven.

We do not teach you have to sit down and remember all your sins, such a thing is impossible. We teach that a person must simply confess they are a sinner and have come short of the glory of God which is absolute perfection.

The problem with your view is that we all live in continuous sin. It is all perspective. You say you only sin once a week, that sounds pretty good. But if you shoplifted from a store once a week, do you think that store would consider you a continuous thief? YES. If you killed someone once a year, do you think the police would consider you a continuous murderer? YES.

So, you minimize your own sin. No true Christian wants to sin, but in reality we all do. When we do so, fellowship is broken, but we are still saved. We confess our sin to restore fellowship with God.

 

[freeatlast]

FAL, I don't know what goes on in your church, but I have always attended IFB churches and have heard the gospel preached hundreds of times. We always teach that a person must realize they are a sinner and cannot earn salvation. We teach that the wages of sin is death, and that if you sin even ONCE in your lifetime that you must pay the penalty and go to hell for your sin. We teach that Jesus died for ALL our sins, past, present, and future, and that if a person will trust Christ, ALL their sins will be forgiven.

We do not teach you have to sit down and remember all your sins, such a thing is impossible. We teach that a person must simply confess they are a sinner and have come short of the glory of God which is absolute perfection.

The problem with your view is that we all live in continuous sin. It is all perspective. You say you only sin once a week, that sounds pretty good. But if you shoplifted from a store once a week, do you think that store would consider you a continuous thief? YES. If you killed someone once a year, do you think the police would consider you a continuous murderer? YES.

So, you minimize your own sin. No true Christian wants to sin, but in reality we all do. When we do so, fellowship is broken, but we are still saved. We confess our sin to restore fellowship with God.

Winn why do you have to twist what is said to give your position. Is that not what satan does? You add to change and even make false claims. Are you afraid of the truth?

 

[webdog]

Winn why do you have to twist what is said to give your position. Is that not what satan does? You add to change and even make false claims. Are you afraid of the truth?

Notice how when exposed freeatlast resorts to attack mode.

Excellent post winman! :thumbs:

 

[JesusFan]

Well I suppose if you feel that way that is your choice, but I choose keep mine in tact and to believe that;
All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

The only thing is that Gnosticism is alive and well around the world and in the churches.

Point here on this OP is that we have NO reason to believe that John refers to Gnostics in this letter though!

greek terms that he uses address "liitle children" ALWAYS when used in NT means saints/believers/Christians, and the contex of his writing akes it very clear that the Apsotle is addressing 2 points to saved peoples...

the saints of God should be living differently than those of the World...
BUT
The saints who do fall into sin can be restored/cleansed by Blood of Christ by confession and moving forward in Christ!

So Dhk is write on this, for IF the main portionof the letter wriiten specifically to Christians actual was wriitem to/about Gnostics. why even have it in there by the canon?

 

[freeatlast]

So Dhk is write on this, for IF the main portionof the letter wriiten specifically to Christians actual was wriitem to/about Gnostics. why even have it in there by the canon?

Sorry you lost me on that one. Please translate.

 

[JesusFan]

Sorry you lost me on that one. Please translate.

Just was saying that IF John JUST meant for his words refer to lost/unsaved peoples getting back right with God, WHY was he using same term ONLY used in NT refering to believers, and why would we have the letter for us preserved for the Church IF meant for the NoN saved?

 

[freeatlast]

Just was saying that IF John JUST meant for his words refer to lost/unsaved peoples getting back right with God, WHY was he using same term ONLY used in NT refering to believers, and why would we have the letter for us preserved for the Church IF meant for the NoN saved?

I assume you have not been reading my posts. John was writing to the church to combat false teachings that came from gnosticism.

 

[JesusFan]

I assume you have not been reading my posts. John was writing to the church to combat false teachings that came from gnosticism.

BUT his pointsregarding IF we say that we have no sin, IF we sin, we need to confess it to God, was directed to saints, correct?

 

[convicted1]

BUT his pointsregarding IF we say that we have no sin, IF we sin, we need to confess it to God, was directed to saints, correct?

1 John 1
5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.




1 John 2
1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.



The main point(s) of the first two chapters of the book is that when we sin, we have Jesus, our advocate, who pleads our case to the Father. The Father sees us through the blood of Jesus, Who is our righteouness. Our righteousnees is as filthy rags, but we are made righteous in His shed blood. Whenever we stumble, He is there to pick us up, and set up back on the "straight and narrow" path.

 

[HankD]

Just for the record, John makes it absolutely clear who the "we" are in his first epistle:

1 John 5

18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.​

HankD​

 

[Dr. Walter]

The passage has been miss-applied for years by Christians because they do not study and see who is being spoken to and why. Many pastors are guilty of not teaching this book correctly and especially these passages, confusing the word of God.

John is talking to the saved about the false teachings of Gnosticism that had crept into the church.

John refers to such false teachings but that is not the stated purpose for writing this epistle (I Jn. 5:13) and he is not addressing this epistle to the lost but to "my little children."

The passage in 1 John 1:9 and 10 is about a lost person not a saved one..

That is factually wrong! First, the plural first person inclusive pronoun "we" has already been contextually established in verses 1-3 to be descriptive of the apostles and saints without any mention of the lost between verses 4 to 7. Grammatically pronouns must be traced back to their nearest antecedent and there is no reference to any lost person or persons previous to the use in verse 8-10. No writer with any common sense would change horses in mid-stream as the purpose of writing is to clarify not confuse.

The "we" refers to all who are children of God by profession and the repeated "if" is designed to introduce the criteria to distinguish those who possess from those who merely profess as this is the repeated design of the letter to provide criteria that the reader can know they are saved from those who are lost professors.

The "if" does not assume the lost condition of anyone but merely introduces the criteria to distinguish the true from the false professor. The false professor is defined by the negative criteria in each verse.

Evidence that a professor does not possess Christ is that they DENY they have sin (v. 8) or DENY they need to confess sin (v 9). These are the marks of FALSE PROFESSORS and FALSE RELIGIONS.

 

[JesusFan]

John refers to such false teachings but that is not the stated purpose for writing this epistle (I Jn. 5:13) and he is not addressing this epistle to the lost but to "my little children."



That is factually wrong! First, the plural first person inclusive pronoun "we" has already been contextually established in verses 1-3 to be descriptive of the apostles and saints without any mention of the lost between verses 4 to 7. Grammatically pronouns must be traced back to their nearest antecedent and there is no reference to any lost person or persons previous to the use in verse 8-10. No writer with any common sense would change horses in mid-stream as the purpose of writing is to clarify not confuse.

The context here in the passage ponts directly back to those whom have received the grace from God, who have become children of Gopd, IE the saints of God!

The "we" refers to all who are children of God by profession and the repeated "if" is designed to introduce the criteria to distinguish those who possess from those who merely profess as this is the repeated design of the letter to provide criteria that the reader can know they are saved from those who are lost professors.

Exactly! the Apostle is qualifying to his readers that they are indeed loved by God, saved by His grace, He is now their heavenly Father...
he is trying to show to them that as tnow the children of God, they should be walking in a fashion worthy of reflecting their new life in Christ, and should not sin, but can come back to the father to be retored by the confession of those sins!

The "if" does not assume the lost condition of anyone but merely introduces the criteria to distinguish the true from the false professor. The false professor is defined by the negative criteria in each verse.

Think one could also use here the term (since), as John is describing to contarst between how a true Child of God should be walking, and how the false ones do not abide in Christ, that have dont reveal they were evr realy saved

Evidence that a professor does not possess Christ is that they DENY they have sin (v. 8) or DENY they need to confess sin (v 9). These are the marks of FALSE PROFESSORS and FALSE RELIGIONS.

THAT is the reason why John HAD to be addressing true believers to confess their sins once commited, as those who profess Christ, but have no life in Him, would not even see the need to do any of that!

 

[preacher4truth]

In answer to the OP, we are both Saints, and sinners.

Paul called himself the chief of sinners, or the foremost of all in 1 Timothy 1:15.

That label is in the present tense.

I am not saying we live in the practice of sin. Just saying what the Word says to us.

 

[JesusFan]

In answer to the OP, we are both Saints, and sinners.

Paul called himself the chief of sinners, or the foremost of all in 1 Timothy 1:15.

That label is in the present tense.

I am not saying we live in the practice of sin. Just saying what the Word says to us.

Isn't that biblical Truth what caused the Catholic Church "terminal heartburn" while confronted by Luther, could NOT see at all how one could be both at same time before Holy God?

 

[Dr. Walter]

THAT is the reason why John HAD to be addressing true believers to confess their sins once commited, as those who profess Christ, but have no life in Him, would not even see the need to do any of that!

Your sentence structure makes your thinking difficult to follow.

You agree he is addressing true believers!

Your words "sins once committed" is factually repudiated by verse 8. John does not use any completed action tense in verse 8 but rather incompleted action. "If we are presently saying, we presently have no sin, we are presently decieving ourselves and the truth is presently not in us."

John is explicitly including himself as he is PRESENTLY speaking and presently denying the present absence of sin within himself and believers. Those who deny this present existence of indwelling sin are presently deceived and presently do not have truth in them concerning this very issue!

 

[JesusFan]

Your sentence structure makes your thinking difficult to follow.

Sorry about that, lets try to clearthis meaning up!

You agree he is addressing true believers!

Your words "sins once committed" is factually repudiated by verse 8. John does not use any completed action tense in verse 8 but rather incompleted action. "If we are presently saying, we presently have no sin, we are presently decieving ourselves and the truth is presently not in us."

John is explicitly including himself as he is PRESENTLY speaking and presently denying the present absence of sin within himself and believers. Those who deny this present existence of indwelling sin are presently deceived and presently do not have truth in them concerning this very issue!

I agree with you on ALL that you posted regarding this passage!
Do agree with you on what Apostle paul was referencing in the Greek text!

I think the big problem is did not articulate this accurately !
As DO see that the Aposle was showing that due to sin not being in acompleted/finished state, and that we are those who still can and do sin, we are NOT the ones who have deceived themselves, by saying they have no sin in them, and hence no need to confess it!

 

[Dr. Walter]

we are NOT the ones who have deceived themselves, by saying they have no sin in them, and hence no need to confess it!

I don't think he is saying "we are NOT the ones who haved decieved THEMSELVES" but he is rather stating a general principle applicable to EVERYONE who professes to be a believer including himself - if the shoe fits wear it - is his application. Not that "we" in the first part of the verse is directed to one type of subject and then transforming "we" in the second part to fit another type of subject but it is the SAME "we" inclusive of himself in both parts. There are some real true born again Christians who have been mislead to beleive they live above sin. So this text fits them without denying their salvation but does not fit those who do not believe that - both equally christian.

 

[JesusFan]

I don't think he is saying "we are NOT the ones who haved decieved THEMSELVES" but he is rather stating a general principle applicable to EVERYONE who professes to be a believer including himself - if the shoe fits wear it - is his application. Not that "we" in the first part of the verse is directed to one type of subject and then transforming "we" in the second part to fit another type of subject but it is the SAME "we" inclusive of himself in both parts. There are some real true born again Christians who have been mislead to beleive they live above sin. So this text fits them without denying their salvation but does not fit those who do not believe that - both equally christian.

very good!
John is indeed stating here that there are some of the "children" of the father are walking in the "light" of those who want them to walk as IF they had no sins, so noneed to confess...

So adressing saved in both situations, just wonder why I never saw this in his writiing to the Christians?