Were OT Saints Indwelt?

[psalms109:31]

Note that all the positions from the article make a clear distinction between regeneration and indwelling, it's not regeneration by indwelling, the two are not the same.

Isaac born after the Spirit by the time of his weaning, David made to hope while on his mother's breast, and John the Baptist filled with the Spirit and jumping from joy while in his mother's womb; whatever this is they were all totally passive in it.

The Spirit where he willeth doth blow, birth from above irresistable, man totally passive.

I do believe the mothers womb is the Holy Spirit and the milk from the breast is God word, we must be born again not from our physical mother but from the enduring word of God.

We must be born again, it doesn't come like or from our earthly mothers womb.

I do believe John the Baptist is Elijah in Spirit in the womb.

Luke 1:17
And he will go on before the Lord, in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the parents to their children and the disobedient to the wisdom of the righteous—to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.”

Matthew 11 :
11 Truly I tell you, among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet whoever is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. 12 From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been subjected to violence,[Or been forcefully advancing] and violent people have been raiding it. 13 For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John. 14 And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come.

 

[Joe Dirt]

Joe Dirt

not trying to cause any problems, and i cannot speak for other versions,
but in the King James bible God answers for himself : ( it seems to me )
Isaiah 53:10 & 11 and Exodus 31 :3 is pretty clear on the subject.
pardon me if i misunderstood the question. hope that helps.God bless

 

[MB]

2 Peter 1:21 "For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost."

Does this passage not imply that there was in a measure an indwelling of the Holy Spirit?

Admittedly I have not thought much on the subject, so I welcome criticism!

Michael

If men could be saved with out Christ paying for there sins then Christ died in vain. If the Law could not save them, by whom were they saved. Please don't tell me they were saved on the foreknowledge of credit for the future dying of Christ.

MB

 

[Jedi Knight]

Please don't tell me they were saved on the foreknowledge of credit for the future dying of Christ.

MB

Luke 2:26 And it had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not see death before he had seen the Lord's Christ. For my eyes have seen your salvation, Simion said this. He was looking forward like the rest.

 

[JohnDBaptiste]

OT saints were not indwelt by the Holy Spirit nor did they have access to heaven in death. The Cross of Christ is what changed this and the covenants for that matter.

John 14:17 (NASB95)
17 that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.

The catalyst for the change from "with" to "in" is the cross.

 

[psalms109:31]

Psalm 51:11
Do not cast me from your presence or take your Holy Spirit from me.

Luke 1:67
[ Zechariah’s Song ] His father Zechariah was filled with the Holy Spirit and prophesied:

It diffidently not a permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the old testament saints nor regenerated without His word that we are reborn by( even if the word comes from a burning bush), the Holy Spirit used men to accomplish the Fathers will for one to prepare the way for His Son and prophesy about the one to come, the one who will crush the head of the serpent(the work of the devil).

It doesn't matter if we are looking forward to the one who will came or the one who has already we are all still saved by Him (Jesus Christ).

Luke 16 :
27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

 

[JohnDBaptiste]

True... but those saints prior to the cross were not indwelled by the Holy Spirit (which is what the OP asked). And they did not go to heaven but rather a different compartment in hades:

Luke 16:19-31 (NIV)
19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day.
20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores
21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried.
23 In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.
24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’
25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony.
26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’
27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father’s house,
28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’
30 ”‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’
31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

Which Jesus emptied the day he was crucified:

Philippians 4:8-10 (NIV)
8 Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things.
9 Whatever you have learned or received or heard from me, or seen in me—put it into practice. And the God of peace will be with you.
10 I rejoice greatly in the Lord that at last you have renewed your concern for me. Indeed, you have been concerned, but you had no opportunity to show it.

In keeping with his promise to the thief on the cross:

Luke 23:43 (NIV)
43 Jesus answered him, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.”

The thief was the first non-Baptist to enter heaven.

:tongue3:

 

[michael-acts17:11]

NO salvation, NO indwelling, NO eternal promises fulfilled under the Old Covenant.

For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: (Hebrews 10:1-5)

Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; And having an high priest over the house of God; (Hebrews 10:18-21)

And these all(OT Saints), having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect. (Hebrews 11:39-40)

 

[psalms109:31]

Psalm 51:11
Do not cast me from your presence or take your Holy Spirit from me.

Luke 1:67
[ Zechariah’s Song ] His father Zechariah was filled with the Holy Spirit and prophesied:

Being indwelt even temporary is still being indwelt to accomplish through them the will of God.

No one received the Holy Spirit as a permanent indwelling in the old testament saints, but to do the work God had for them for His purpose. To say man can do anything for God without the Holy Spirit and His word that rebirths us is ridiculous.

Jeremiah 23:

22 But if they had stood in my council,
they would have proclaimed my words to my people
and would have turned them from their evil ways
and from their evil deeds.

 

[JohnDBaptiste]

Um, we must be careful not to equate the comparison of the two covenants with the two peoples (Jew and Gentile).

 

[psalms109:31]

Um, we must be careful not to equate the comparison of the two covenants with the two peoples (Jew and Gentile).

Exodus 12 :
43 The Lord said to Moses and Aaron, “These are the regulations for the Passover meal:

“No foreigner may eat it. 44 Any slave you have bought may eat it after you have circumcised him, 45 but a temporary resident or a hired worker may not eat it.

46 “It must be eaten inside the house; take none of the meat outside the house. Do not break any of the bones. 47 The whole community of Israel must celebrate it.

48 “A foreigner residing among you who wants to celebrate the Lord’s Passover must have all the males in his household circumcised; then he may take part like one born in the land. No uncircumcised male may eat it. 49 The same law applies both to the native-born and to the foreigner residing among you.”

50 All the Israelites did just what the Lord had commanded Moses and Aaron. 51 And on that very day the Lord brought the Israelites out of Egypt by their divisions.

Romans 2 :
28 A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29 No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God.

Hebrews 4

4 Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it. 2 For we also have had the good news proclaimed to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because they did not share the faith of those who obeyed.[Some manuscripts because those who heard did not combine it with faith] 3 Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said,

“So I declared on oath in my anger,
‘They shall never enter my rest.’”[Psalm 95:11; also in verse 5]

And yet his works have been finished since the creation of the world. 4 For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: “On the seventh day God rested from all his works.”[Gen. 2:2] 5 And again in the passage above he says, “They shall never enter my rest.”

6 Therefore since it still remains for some to enter that rest, and since those who formerly had the good news proclaimed to them did not go in because of their disobedience, 7 God again set a certain day, calling it “Today.” This he did when a long time later he spoke through David, as in the passage already quoted:

“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts.”[Psalm 95:7,8]

8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10 for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from their works,[Or labor] just as God did from his. 11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience.

12 For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. 13 Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.

Psalm 73:28
But it is good for me to draw near to God; I have put my trust in the Lord GOD, That I may declare all Your works.

Romans 4
Abraham Justified by Faith

4 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”[Gen. 15:6; also in verse 22]

4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

 

[MB]

Luke 2:26 And it had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not see death before he had seen the Lord's Christ. For my eyes have seen your salvation, Simion said this. He was looking forward like the rest.

Seeing Christ is not Salvation. Being indwelt by the Holy Spirit is. The old testament saints were not indwelt by the Spirit. No one is saved with out the blood.
MB

 

[michael-acts17:11]

There is no eternal remission of sins without the shed blood of Christ. Apply this Biblical truth to the "OT saints were saved" position & see where it takes you.


And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

 

[Bronconagurski]

There is no eternal remission of sins without the shed blood of Christ. Apply this Biblical truth to the "OT saints were saved" position & see where it takes you.


And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

So your position is that all the O.T. saints were lost?

 

[JohnDBaptiste]

Exodus 12 :
43 The Lord said to Moses and Aaron, “These are the regulations for the Passover meal:

“No foreigner may eat it. 44 Any slave you have bought may eat it after you have circumcised him, 45 but a temporary resident or a hired worker may not eat it.

46 “It must be eaten inside the house; take none of the meat outside the house. Do not break any of the bones. 47 The whole community of Israel must celebrate it.

48 “A foreigner residing among you who wants to celebrate the Lord’s Passover must have all the males in his household circumcised; then he may take part like one born in the land. No uncircumcised male may eat it. 49 The same law applies both to the native-born and to the foreigner residing among you.”

50 All the Israelites did just what the Lord had commanded Moses and Aaron. 51 And on that very day the Lord brought the Israelites out of Egypt by their divisions.

Romans 2 :
28 A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29 No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God.

Hebrews 4

4 Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it. 2 For we also have had the good news proclaimed to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because they did not share the faith of those who obeyed.[Some manuscripts because those who heard did not combine it with faith] 3 Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said,

“So I declared on oath in my anger,
‘They shall never enter my rest.’”[Psalm 95:11; also in verse 5]

And yet his works have been finished since the creation of the world. 4 For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: “On the seventh day God rested from all his works.”[Gen. 2:2] 5 And again in the passage above he says, “They shall never enter my rest.”

6 Therefore since it still remains for some to enter that rest, and since those who formerly had the good news proclaimed to them did not go in because of their disobedience, 7 God again set a certain day, calling it “Today.” This he did when a long time later he spoke through David, as in the passage already quoted:

“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts.”[Psalm 95:7,8]

8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10 for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from their works,[Or labor] just as God did from his. 11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience.

12 For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. 13 Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.

Psalm 73:28
But it is good for me to draw near to God; I have put my trust in the Lord GOD, That I may declare all Your works.

Romans 4
Abraham Justified by Faith

4 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”[Gen. 15:6; also in verse 22]

4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

All of these support my position that the old testament saints were saved on credit not activated until the cross.

I do not see the point you were making to the contrary (if at all). Please enlighten me.

 

[psalms109:31]

Seeing Christ is not Salvation. Being indwelt by the Holy Spirit is. The old testament saints were not indwelt by the Spirit. No one is saved with out the blood.
MB

So you don't think having faith of looking forward to the lamb lead to the slaughter for our salvation is not the same as the faith in the one who has? I am talking about faith in the one to come and the one who has already has, but we still have to take it by faith like them. We are better off because it has already happened, but their faith is not the same to, by looking forward to it?

 

[psalms109:31]

All of these support my position that the old testament saints were saved on credit not activated until the cross.

I do not see the point you were making to the contrary (if at all). Please enlighten me.

I have already given you scripture twice to show indwelling before the cross, even if it is temporary. These scripture is to show even from the beginning Gentiles could have the same hope as the Jews in their covenant.

Ephesians 1:13
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

 

[psalms109:31]

The Holy Spirit can use anything for a messenger, a burning bush, a worm, a donkey or wicked man. Since we are all sinners. I am pretty sure a donkey or a worm wasn't eternity saved because it was used as a messenger. It is not the messenger that is important, but the message, the words of life that is everything and who the message came from.

Philippians 2:
Do Everything Without Grumbling

12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.

14 Do everything without grumbling or arguing, 15 so that you may become blameless and pure, “children of God without fault in a warped and crooked generation.”[Deut. 32:5] Then you will shine among them like stars in the sky 16 as you hold firmly to the word of life. And then I will be able to boast on the day of Christ that I did not run or labor in vain. 17 But even if I am being poured out like a drink offering on the sacrifice and service coming from your faith, I am glad and rejoice with all of you. 18 So you too should be glad and rejoice with me.

 

[michael-acts17:11]

NNE was saved under the Law. Scripture is clear on this point. Those who died under the OT went to Paradise until Christ redeemed them from the curse of the law. No person can stand in God's presence without the imputed righteousness of Christ. This imputation did not occur until after the New Covenant was made & enforced after Christ's death.

If you think they were saved under the Law, you are disagreeing with Scripture, not with me. Salvation did not come until Christ's blood was shed & offered to God in the true holy of holies. Hebrews is the great instruction manual on the Covenants. We would all do well to read it before attributing New Covenant benefits on persons while they lived under Old Covenant.


For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the age hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. (Hebrews 9:24-28)

And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. . (Hebrews 9:15-17)

And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
(Rev 12:10-11)

 

[psalms109:31]

Romans 4
Abraham Justified by Faith

4 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”[Gen. 15:6; also in verse 22]

4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

Hebrews 4:3
Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said,“So I declared on oath in my anger, ‘They shall never enter my rest.’”And yet his works have been finished since the creation of the world.

No we are saved by grace through faith, for the ot saints in the lamb who will be lead to the slaughter for our iniquities our sin and for us the one who has already come who shed His blood for our sin. It is is not by works, but entering into His rest. It is simple believe in God, then you can enter His rest.

Hebrews 12

12 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us, 2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith. For the joy set before him he endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. 3 Consider him who endured such opposition from sinners, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.