Would Your baptist Church Allow Wayne Grudem To Teach/preach There?

[Iconoclast]

There are differences from the Trinity and the sign gifts. It is a heresy to deny the Trinity. All of Church history has stood in accord of saying that no true Christian can deny the Trinity and be a Christian. A Pastor, as well, should be competent in his doctrine to defend the Trinity.

The sign gifts are different. According to J.I. Packer, a large number of the Puritans, and perhaps a majority, were not cessationists. This issue is not a new one and it has come up throughout history. It has never been treated on the same plane as the Trinity and people who have disagreed have treated the others within acceptable differences.

I would invite him into my church, a church that believes in the cessationist doctrine. In fact, I do not think any of our Elders would disagree to having him preach.

I over stated my response to make a point.Yes, the trinity is certainly more substantial. That being said, thedoctrine of scripture is as important,because we do not get a true knowledge of God without His revelation of Himself.
Puritans looked for God to work in and among the people,but they were not looking for these falsehoods we see today.
Grudem, Piper, and several others get mentioned in these discussions.
They do not claim any sign gift themselves. I like some of the ideas they come up with on other areas.They are wrong on this however.

 

[Ruiz]

I over stated my response to make a point.Yes, the trinity is certainly more substantial. That being said, thedoctrine of scripture is as important,because we do not get a true knowledge of God without His revelation of Himself.
Puritans looked for God to work in and among the people,but they were not looking for these falsehoods we see today.
Grudem, Piper, and several others get mentioned in these discussions.
They do not claim any sign gift themselves. I like some of the ideas they come up with on other areas.They are wrong on this however.

You say much that we agree upon. In fact, there are many concerns I have with the sign gifts sector and how this subtlety undermines the Scripture. In more Charismatic circles it is an outright attack.

However, when we see Grudem and Piper, I do not think we can say they want to undermine Scripture in any way. I belonged to a church where one of the Elders debated Grudem on this very issue (on Challies' website even). He, though, would love to have Grudem in his pulpit along with Piper.

Thus, I think in many cases, the non-cessationist viewpoint is a dividing line, in these two specific instances I don't see that.

 

[JesusFan]

You say much that we agree upon. In fact, there are many concerns I have with the sign gifts sector and how this subtlety undermines the Scripture. In more Charismatic circles it is an outright attack.

However, when we see Grudem and Piper, I do not think we can say they want to undermine Scripture in any way. I belonged to a church where one of the Elders debated Grudem on this very issue (on Challies' website even). He, though, would love to have Grudem in his pulpit along with Piper.

Thus, I think in many cases, the non-cessationist viewpoint is a dividing line, in these two specific instances I don't see that.

Think that it is important to realise that we baptists CANNOT broad brush all of us holding to the Gifts still functioning for today!

DO NOT hold to classical view, that there is a "second act of grace/Baptism in HS", nor that there are revealed ANY new doctrines/additions to scriptures etc today!

DO hold that there are still times that the HS may choose to instruct/direct/guide/exhort/encourage by His moving through us ina local assembly, or when witnessing too thers for example!

At ALL times though, the Bible IS final/only inspired full revealtion from the lord to His church for today!

 

[JesusFan]

I'm not allowed to give my opinion on this forum on whether I think he is a heretic.

Would he be considered a heretic based upon his view on Spiritual Gifts, or for his reformed beliefs in general?

 

[Iconoclast]

You say much that we agree upon. In fact, there are many concerns I have with the sign gifts sector and how this subtlety undermines the Scripture. In more Charismatic circles it is an outright attack.

However, when we see Grudem and Piper, I do not think we can say they want to undermine Scripture in any way. I belonged to a church where one of the Elders debated Grudem on this very issue (on Challies' website even). He, though, would love to have Grudem in his pulpit along with Piper.

Thus, I think in many cases, the non-cessationist viewpoint is a dividing line, in these two specific instances I don't see that.

Ruiz,
I am glad God uses these men.I have posted several links from Piper for example. I have heard sermons by both of these men.
I have to leave them to God as far as what they do and teach.I know they are intellegent and gifted men. I do not have to agree with them on all things. The first systematic theology i read was Berkof...yet i am not a padeobaptist.
I am not alone in warning people about their views here. i will stay with the Historic view as truth.....all of this other stuff as error.


JF......i have attended many churches where the "gifts " were "operating":laugh: What i saw was completely fleshly manifestations.

This does not determine what is correct or not, scripture does. I know what you are angling for with your view....believe what you will.....but i would urge caution :type:

 

[JesusFan]

Ruiz,
I am glad God uses these men.I have posted several links from Piper for example. I have heard sermons by both of these men.
I have to leave them to God as far as what they do and teach.I know they are intellegent and gifted men. I do not have to agree with them on all things. The first systematic theology i read was Berkof...yet i am not a padeobaptist.
I am not alone in warning people about their views here. i will stay with the Historic view as truth.....all of this other stuff as error.


JF......i have attended many churches where the "gifts " were "operating":laugh: What i saw was completely fleshly manifestations.

This does not determine what is correct or not, scripture does. I know what you are angling for with your view....believe what you will.....but i would urge caution :type:

Agree!
I have not had ANY "manifestation" since joining my current church, going on 7 years now, so is NOT end all be all of the Christian life!

 

[CF1]

This thread encouraged me to finally read Chapter 53 of Wayne Grudem's Systematic Theology, which covers specific Gifts of the Holy Spirit and application of those gifts.

Rest assured everyone, Grudem provides plenty of caution and restrictions on the use of sign gifts.

So even though in Chapter 52 on the Holy Spirit he seems to not find total support for a purist Cessationist view, his view on how to use any gifts that might be there, would have us not practice them in public.

He quotes the Bible where it says if unbelievers come into your Assembly and see you speaking in tongues/languages they will think you are mad! So do it in private at home. If you do it with believers have an interpreter or don't do it.

So even though in theory he is "open" rather than Cessationist,
In practice he would appear to believe we should restrict many of the practices found in Pentacostal and other churches, due to verses that say, even if those gifts are still active, they should not be used in a public way.

There are many other good points. He encourages NT prophecy, which he defines very differently than OT prophecy. NT prophecy is just when we speak from a remembrance of Scripture, not a new word from God that isn't supported by Scripture. He emphasizes Scripture as the final test of whether such "prophecy" is from God or mixed up with man's thoughts.

He encourages churches to not foster an atmosphere of "spectator Chirstians", but instead to encourage interaction through open prayer and praise that fits with scripture. He encourages that such open prayer and praise should not be attracting attention to the person, but to Christ. The prayer should not be over emotional or dramatic and people should be taught how to do this prayer. Smaller groups are a safer place to encourage this type of worship.

My thoughts are that this will keep the church from being stiff, stale, old, and quenching the work of the Holy Spirit in our hearts and He teaches and illuminates the Lord Jesus and awakens affections and love to Him, to the point where we can't just sit stiff and bored.

 

[JesusFan]

This thread encouraged me to finally read Chapter 53 of Wayne Grudem's Systematic Theology, which covers specific Gifts of the Holy Spirit and application of those gifts.

Rest assured everyone, Grudem provides plenty of caution and restrictions on the use of sign gifts.

So even though in Chapter 52 on the Holy Spirit he seems to not find total support for a purist Cessationist view, his view on how to use any gifts that might be there, would have us not practice them in public.

He quotes the Bible where it says if unbelievers come into your Assembly and see you speaking in tongues/languages they will think you are mad! So do it in private at home. If you do it with believers have an interpreter or don't do it.

So even though in theory he is "open" rather than Cessationist,
In practice he would appear to believe we should restrict many of the practices found in Pentacostal and other churches, due to verses that say, even if those gifts are still active, they should not be used in a public way.

There are many other good points. He encourages NT prophecy, which he defines very differently than OT prophecy. NT prophecy is just when we speak from a remembrance of Scripture, not a new word from God that isn't supported by Scripture. He emphasizes Scripture as the final test of whether such "prophecy" is from God or mixed up with man's thoughts.

He encourages churches to not foster an atmosphere of "spectator Chirstians", but instead to encourage interaction through open prayer and praise that fits with scripture. He encourages that such open prayer and praise should not be attracting attention to the person, but to Christ. The prayer should not be over emotional or dramatic and people should be taught how to do this prayer. Smaller groups are a safer place to encourage this type of worship.

My thoughts are that this will keep the church from being stiff, stale, old, and quenching the work of the Holy Spirit in our hearts and He teaches and illuminates the Lord Jesus and awakens affections and love to Him, to the point where we can't just sit stiff and bored.

he would view this as I do, that the Holy spirit still can function/operate in the area of the Gifts, but that needs to be all done under biblical guidelines, and that whatever is done NEVER opposite to the Bible, nor in addition to it!

 

[preachinjesus]

This thread encouraged me to finally read Chapter 53 of Wayne Grudem's Systematic Theology, which covers specific Gifts of the Holy Spirit and application of those gifts.

HEY! HEY YOU! YEAH YOU WITH THE BOOK! Let's not have you going around confusing people with the facts!

I mean the gall of it all...reading the text in question to understand his position...I mean that clearly isn't something we do much around these parts...





(said most assuredly tongue-in-cheek....and bravo friend! You've done a great service to this conversation. I applaud you!)

Rest assured everyone, Grudem provides plenty of caution and restrictions on the use of sign gifts.

Which is what many of us have been saying all along. Such a sad thing that so many seek to impugn the character of fine theologians over such minor issues.

Good reply! :thumbsup:

 

[CF1]

That is so funny! Thanks again for the encouragement to dig into this! It's been good learning, that I wouldn't have done without the forum prodding me on.

 

[JesusFan]

That is so funny! Thanks again for the encouragement to dig into this! It's been good learning, that I wouldn't have done without the forum prodding me on.

that is why I encourage you to read him, Erickson, Calvin etc

Also throw in some who views opposite of yours in say eschatology and other issues, even read arms for profit!(Some of them!)