Original Sin and its imputation on the human race

You shouold have asked me that question.

I hold to my viewpoint, based on what the scriptures tell me.

Everyone doesn't fit neatly into the labels you hold to.

John

 

Yeah,those not of the Calvinistic stripe do generally fall into the categories that Ruiz itemized.

 

Yeah, it's amazing how some must write a novel to explain a simple clause "for that all have sinned".

A simple analogy might show what Paul is saying. Imagine a bus called Sin whose destination is Death. Imagine another bus called Faith whose destination is Life.

Adam started the bus called Sin. He jumped in and started it up, he started driving toward the destination Death. All of us who have personally sinned like Adam have jumped on this bus called Sin and are headed to the same destination, which is Death.

Those of us who have believed have asked the bus to stop and have jumped on the bus driven by Jesus. Jesus is the one who started the bus called Faith and is driving it toward Life. By believeing we have now boarded Jesus's bus called Faith and are headed toward Life.

Simple analogy that I am sure will fail at some point, but this is sort of how I understand Rom 5:12-21.

 

If you think you have created a new theology that has never been espoused you are probably wrong on two counts. You are probably making up a theology that is not Biblical and/or you probably do not realize that you really do hold to a theology previously espoused.

 

You missed the point entirely.

I have no new theology, and that is why I don't fit into any of your labeled theologies.

I have never seen the words pelagian, semi-pelagian, or semi-augstinian in the Bible, so surely they are man-made theologies, just like Calvinism.

Do you spend more time studying the Bible or studying theologies?

John

 

Yeah, these guys all follow theologians and fight and argue with each other. Those who follow Calvin will say those who follow Wesley are in error and vice versa. So following "theologians" does not keep one from error.

Then they have the nerve to say those who rely on the scriptures will fall into error! This is the kettle calling the pot black.

I will read the writings of theologians on occasion, but I compare what they teach with scripture. If what they write disagrees with scripture I reject them. Scripture alone is my authority.

 

Before Augustine became a Christian he was a Gnostic follower.

 

There are a couple problems, this imputed sin makes one guilty of sin prior to the first sin act. Second scripture often points directly to Christ with a clear accusation of imputation of Righteousness. It never does that with sin and Adam. What is more clear here is that because of Adams sin, the corruption of sin had its effect on the world but that is far different from imputation.

Having said that Agnostics are not to blame for every doctrine under the sun we do not like. :BangHead:

 

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

This verse proves sin is not imputed to us through Adam. Sin is a work, it is something you do, and death is the just WAGE for sin. Salvation on the other hand is a gift, something you do not work for or earn.

Rom 9:11 shows that babies have DONE neither good or evil. They have performed no work, therefore there is no WAGE due them.

Infants physically die as a consequence of Adam's sin, but they have performed no sin, and therefore are due no wage.

 

There are hundreds of scripture that pertain to this. It is my belief that because of Adam we are all born with a sin nature. The infant you mentioned, Noone teaches an infant to throw fits, or to lie when they get caught doing something, it just comes natural. An infant learns that lieing is wrong, but he still doesn't understand the eternal consequences of sin until he much older. So, I agree with you that infants are not accountable, but I disagree because they do indeed sin from birth on, without even being taught to.

The wicked heart we are born with is the root of all of our sins. Focusing on the actual sin and not recognising the sin nature is like having an illness and treating the symtoms while letting the actual cause of the illness run amock.

So, yes, sin is imputed to us by Adam.

I am interested in what you think about Adam. Was he created with a pure heart (in God's own image), and did he choose to sin on his own?

Or was he created with a wicked heart as we are, and his sinning was just a matter of when, not if?

John

 

I do not know what this means. Did you mean sin and not win?

It is not very clear. That is an exaggeration. Rom 5:19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.(ESV) Which is far different than imputation.

Rom 5:13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law.(ESV)

It is not a perfect analogy. Adam's act brought sin into the world. Christ's obedience brought righteousness. That imperfect analogy does not speak to imputed sin.

typo

 

And yet many "innocents" can and do die.

That part of Adam's "payment" we all (well almost all) will pay.

Call the cause what you will.

I don't like the term "original sin" either but it serves the shorthand purpose of identifying what we received because of Adam's sin as it harkens back to Adam's sin, the original (first) human sin.

HankD

 

and so death spread to all men because all sinned (ESV)

What it actually makes clear is man's sin is because the individual man sinned. Works against imputation of sin.

There is nothing here that has been said that works to convince me that it is a perfect analogy. And in verse 13 the imputation is because of the law not because of Adam's sin.

 

You have fallen for the fallacy that a sin nature is necessary to sin. Adam and Eve were very good, yet they both sinned. More than this we see Eve had the lust of the flesh- tree looked good for food, lust of the eyes- was pleasant to the eyes, and the pride of life- desired to make one wise (Gen 3:6). Adam and Eve were flesh and had the same lusts and desires as us, but they did not become sinners until they actually sinned.

Free will is the source of sin, we all have the ability to obey or disobey God.

Babies are flesh, they have natural lusts and desires, but it is not evil for a baby to cry when it needs food or changing, or to fuss when teething, this is their God-given way to communicate to us.

 

When Adam sinned, God cursed the ground. He also said the woman would suffer in child-bearing and be subject to her husband, that man's labor would be increased and he would return to the dust. This curse passed on all the universe, animals who do not sin die, unliving things wax old and corrupt.

But there is not one single word regarding man's moral nature. Nowhere does it say man will have a sin nature and be unable to obey or believe God. This is an utterly false man-made doctrine found nowhere in all of scripture.

 

Yes, Adam and Eve were created in God's image. They CHOSED to sin and because of their choice we are born with a sin nature.

" Eve had the lust of the flesh- tree looked good for food, lust of the eyes- was pleasant to the eyes, and the pride of life- desired to make one wise "

Well, if God created man in "His own image" then how can Eve have the lust of the flesh without choosing to have it?

"Free will is the source of sin, we all have the ability to obey or disobey God."

Are you saying that man is born perfect, and that he chooses to disobey God? Do you know of anybody that has lived their entire lives sinless besides Jesus?

Nobody has the ability to choose to sin or not. We do have the choice in any particular situation to sin or not sin, but overall, we ALL sin.

And, as far as babies, I am not talking about crying when it needs food or changing. I am saying that by the time babies can talk, they have already learned how to throw fits for a piece of candy, and how to say "NO, I didn't do it, when in fact they did. People sin from birth, because we are born with a wicked heart, or if you will a "sinful nature" Nobody has to teach that baby how to lie, he knows it by nature.

John