Saved by Grace not of works !

[savedbymercy]

gup

Paul makes a distinction as well between faith and works.

There is a difference when you consider how one is saved ! Works is doing something in order to get saved, Faith is having ones salvation revealed to them that they are saved by Christ's work, and they believe.

However, believing is something man does. If you say you are saved because of what you did, which was believed, then you fall back into works...

 

[Gup20]

Just discredit Original Sin & your home free.:laugh:

The term "original sin" is perhaps a misnomer... it should have been called "original death". We do not inherit the sin of Adam, but we do inherit the death of Adam that God judged Adam with because of Adam's sin.

 

[Gup20]

gup



There is a difference when you consider how one is saved ! Works is doing something in order to get saved, Faith is having ones salvation revealed to them that they are saved by Christ's work, and they believe.

However, believing is something man does. If you say you are saved because of what you did, which was believed, then you fall back into works...

That is your own definition, not the Biblical definition. According to the Apostle Paul, works is salvation through following the law and faith is salvation by believing in the Gospel. He describes both as covenants.

Rom 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, [was] not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.​

Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, [it is] evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.​

Gal 4:23 But he [who was] of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman [was] by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.​

You have only to look at the first person saved by promise through faith (Abraham) to see how his faith saved him when he believed the Gospel of Christ.

Did you even look at the insurmountable evidence I've given you from scripture to support this?

If you are to overcome this argument, you must explain away each of those scriptures which explicitly contradict you.

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.​

Start with this one that directly and explicitly contradicts your definition of believing being a work.

The Bible makes clear there are two covenants whereby men can be declared righteous - the Law and Faith. Faith is believing in the Gospel, whereas following the law is Works.

 

[savedbymercy]

gup

That is your own definition,

No its not. Believing is something man does. It is doing a commandment 1 Jn 3:23

23And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

Now if you think one is saved by keeping a commandment, that is works !

The word works as in Eph 2:9 is the greek word ergon and means:

business, employment, that which any one is occupied

a) that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking

2) any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind

3) an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

Now are you trying to tell me that the bible does not teach that to believe on Christ is not a thing done ? An act man does ? You deny that ?

 

[Gup20]

gup



No its not. Believing is something man does. It is doing a commandment 1 Jn 3:23

23And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

Now if you think one is saved by keeping a commandment, that is works !

Again, that is your own definition, not a Biblical one. How do you think "salvation" comes? Salvation is synonymous with righteousness. You must be made righteous to be "saved". There are only two ways to be righteous - faith and works. The Bible defines faith as "believing the gospel" and works as "following the law".

The word works as in Eph 2:9 is the greek word ergon and means:

business, employment, that which any one is occupied

a) that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking

2) any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind

3) an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

That's a completely irrelevant argument. Paul is clear about the only two possible ways of being made righteous - the law and faith. When Paul says "works" he means "the law". Furthermore that in every one of these cases the word for works is ergon.

Rom 3:26 To declare, [I say], at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27 Where [is] boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Rom 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because [they sought it] not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Gal 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, [doeth he it] by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.​

Now are you trying to tell me that the bible does not teach that to believe on Christ is not a thing done ? An act man does ? You deny that ?

This is a straw man argument. It is also irrelevant. You are imposing your definition of what Paul means by "works" and "faith" upon the scripture. Paul himself defines (repeatedly as I've shown you) faith as believing in the gospel and works as following the law. Paul himself in Romans 4:5 says that believing is not a "work". He has a completely different idea of what "works" means than you do, SBM, and he has repeatedly defined what he means by "works" as "works of the law" or following the law.

I absolutely do think that the Bible teaches that to believe in the gospel of Jesus Christ will make one righteous, and I absolutely do think that believing is an act man does. I also absolutely think that salvation by grace through faith (which is believing in the Gospel) is a covenant God setup with Abraham and it is the only means by which men can be saved (made righteous) because all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, and are therefore unqualified to be declared righteous by the law (works). And I know for a fact that your definition of "works" is not the Biblical definition. You think that a work is "anything a person does". But this is a naive and shallow view based on one verse where Paul didn't say "works of the law" but shortened it to simply "works". Well Pauls audience (the Ephesians) understood that he meant "works of the law" by the term "works". In fact, the whole book of Ephesians is Paul giving them "the law" or standards of behavior to live by. He prefaces giving them this instruction by reminding them that they are not "made righteous" by following the do's and don'ts, but rather they are made righteous by their faith.

 

[savedbymercy]

gp

Again, that is your own definition, not a Biblical one

Sure its biblical. Believing is doing a commandment 1 Jn 3:23


23And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

A commandments is done vs 22 1 Jn 3:22

22And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

This is a straw man argument. It is also irrelevant.

No its not ! You believe one is saved by what he does, that is works, you can't get out of it..

 

[Gup20]

gp



Sure its biblical. Believing is doing a commandment 1 Jn 3:23


23And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

A commandments is done vs 22 1 Jn 3:22

22And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

Salvation by faith was not established in 1 John 3:22, but in Genesis 15.

Gen 15:5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.​

Just because the law (commandments) came after that doesn't disqualify the promise that it would be by faith to those who believe.

Gal 3:17 And this I say, [that] the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
18 For if the inheritance [be] of the law, [it is] no more of promise: but God gave [it] to Abraham by promise.​

The commandment (the law) which came much after the establishment of salvation by faith (by believing in the gospel) cannot disannul the promise of God, so 1 John 3:23 has no bearing on how one acquires righteousness through believing in the Gospel.

Gal 3:21 [Is] the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.​

​

No its not ! You believe one is saved by what he does, that is works, you can't get out of it..

You're definition of "works" isn't Biblical. The apostle Paul, who wrote Ephesians, defines "works" as "following the law." Therefore, it is evident that when he says in Ephesians that it is not by works, that he means it is not by following the law. He also defines "faith" as believing in the gospel of Jesus Christ. So when he says it is by faith, he means it is by believing in the gospel of Jesus Christ.

I have given you more than 2 dozen verses that prove you wrong. You have mis-quoted one verse (I've show you here again, why it is a misquote - because of Paul's own definition of "works"), and supported that misquote by one irrelevant verse (righteousness by the law came after righteousness by faith).

Your argument is woefully lacking at best. You simply can't support your position with scripture. You would have to alter the clear meaning of entire chapters of scripture to suit your own flawed theology. I've even showed you scriptures that stand explicitly in direct opposition to your position and you wouldn't even believe God's own word.

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.​

You are so committed to your anti-Biblical theology, that you must impose this meaning on scripture despite the overwhelming Biblical evidence against you. You have to get over the idea that Faith is a Work. You have to get past the lie that says that believing is a "work" as the Bible and Paul defines "works". You have to rid yourself of your anti-Biblical deception that has convinced you that "works" means anything you do rather than the way the Apostle Paul defines "Works" which is "works of the law".

You have yet to show me one verse where Paul defines "works" the way you do, as "anything you do"... yet I have shown you many, many verses which show exactly how Paul defines works - as "works of the law".

 

[savedbymercy]

gup

Salvation by faith was not established in 1 John 3:22, but in Genesis 15.

All that means nothing, You teach and believe that a man is saved by works, by what he does. To believe is something man does, an act or work of the mind or heart. 1 Jn 3:23

23And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

A man is not saved by works of obedience, but by the Grace of God Eph 2:8-9

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

You reject one of the most fundamental Truths of the Christian Faith !

You're definition of "works" isn't Biblical.

That is a lie, The definition I give is the greek word God inspired Paul to use Eph 2:9

It is the greek word ergon and means:

business, employment, that which any one is occupied

a) that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking

2) any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind

3) an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work


It says nothing about the mosaic law of God, even though it would apply. Paul was writing to many gentiles, who could care less about the mosaic law, but any man by nature feels they can do something to get themselves saved. Paul demolishes that whole manner of thinking, simply by writing " not of works" ! lest any man should boast....

 

[Gup20]

gup



All that means nothing, You teach and believe that a man is saved by works, by what he does. To believe is something man does, an act or work of the mind or heart. 1 Jn 3:23

23And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

A man is not saved by works of obedience, but by the Grace of God Eph 2:8-9

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

You reject one of the most fundamental Truths of the Christian Faith !

It is not that I reject any truth... in fact, I uphold the truth of the scripture. I do not read in my own definitions and ideas as you are doing.

You are holding tightly to Paul's writing in Ephesians 2:8-9 as the only supporting verse for your point of view. But look and see - Paul repeats this exact argument in MORE detail in both Galatians 3 and Romans 4. By these two other accounts of the same information, we can see more clearly what Paul is saying to the Ephesians;

Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath [whereof] to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.​

This verse proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that "believing" is not considered "works" by the Apostle Paul because of what he means by the term "works" - he means "works of the Law". There can be no doubt that Paul considers "believing" to be "faith."

Therefore, we know with absolute certainty that when Paul says "works" he does not mean "anything you do" as you assume, but rather it can be demonstrated by Galatians 3-4 and Romans 4 that by "works" Paul really means "the law" and by "faith" Paul really means "believing in the gospel."

Therefore, we let scripture interpret scripture and we know by Galatians and Romans that when Paul says "works" in Ephesians 2, he means "the law", and when he says "faith" he means "believing the gospel."

That is a lie, The definition I give is the greek word God inspired Paul to use Eph 2:9

It is the greek word ergon and means:

business, employment, that which any one is occupied

a) that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking

2) any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind

3) an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

And when Paul uses the word "law" do you think he means Greek law? Do you think he means Roman law? Do you think he means the law of Sodom and Gomorrah? Or do you think he uses the term "the law" and "works of the law" to mean the Hebrew and Mosaic law?

How about this:

νόμος
law
nomos

1) anything established, anything received by usage, a custom, a law, a command
a) of any law whatsoever
1) a law or rule producing a state approved of God
a) by the observance of which is approved of God
2) a precept or injunction
3) the rule of action prescribed by reason

Here is the Greek definition of law. When Paul uses the word law, he uses the Greek word. Since the greek word means "any law whatsoever" we know that when Paul talks about the law he means any law, right? You can see how ridiculous this argument is!

It says nothing about the mosaic law of God, even though it would apply. Paul was writing to many gentiles, who could care less about the mosaic law, but any man by nature feels they can do something to get themselves saved. Paul demolishes that whole manner of thinking, simply by writing " not of works" ! lest any man should boast....

By Paul's other writings we know exactly what he means when he says "works". He does not mean "anything you do," he means "the law."

The law and faith are continually used in conjunction and contrasted by Paul. He uses "the law" and "works" interchangeably. He uses "faith" and "believing" interchangeably.

 

[savedbymercy]

gup

It is not that I reject any truth...

You reject salvation by grace through faith, and not of works, something man does..

I have showed you what works means:

It is the greek word ergon and means:

business, employment, that which any one is occupied

a) that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking

2) any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind

3) an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

 

[The Biblicist]

That is your own definition, not the Biblical definition. According to the Apostle Paul, works is salvation through following the law and faith is salvation by believing in the Gospel. He describes both as covenants.

The works of the law was never ever designed by God for the salvation of anyone. It was "added" merely to define the knowledge of sin and frustrate any and all who attempted to be justified by personal participation in good works. God never designed the law to justify eternal life for anyone (Gal. 3:21) but to be a schoolmaster to lead away from self-participation for justification and faith in Christ.

Rom 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, [was] not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.​

Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, [it is] evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.​

Gal 4:23 But he [who was] of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman [was] by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.​

You have only to look at the first person saved by promise through faith (Abraham) to see how his faith saved him when he believed the Gospel of Christ.

Faith saves no one and therefore it is not a work. It is the object of faith that saves. Justifying faith is "IN" something/someone and depending what it is "IN" determines if a person is justified or not.

Did you even look at the insurmountable evidence I've given you from scripture to support this?

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.​

Start with this one that directly and explicitly contradicts your definition of believing being a work.

Your selection of a text could not be better to prove your point.

 

[The Biblicist]

gup



No its not. Believing is something man does. It is doing a commandment 1 Jn 3:23

23And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

May I point out some reasons why I think you have misapplied this text. This is not the only text that encourages believers to believe in Jesus Christ but 1 John 5:13 is an exhortation to further beleive in Jesus Christ based upon assurance they already have eternal life.

Both of these texts are addressed to born again believers and do not refer to initial justification by faith which is a past tense completed action in which "faith" neither justifies or saves us but rather it is the OBJECT of faith that either justifies or saves us. Justification by faith eliminates all personal participation in justification before God. Hence, these texts have nothing to do with justification by grace through faith.

What do these texts refer to? They refer to progressive sanctification manifested by love for God and one another. Our love is revealed through FAITHFULNESS which is inclusive of good works that glorify God and edify our brethren.

However, in justification faith neither justifies or saves anyone. In justification before God what justifies or saves is only the proper OBJECT of faith. If faith does not have the proper object it is worthless and therefore faith itself neither saves or justifies. Justification by faith is not a work but rather embraces the works of Christ.

Furthermore, justifying faith is not a work of man because it is the state of the new heart given in regeneration. Paul says "WITH THE HEART MAN BELIEVETH" but the old heart is incapable of this. The new heart never exists in unbelief but what is given is a beleiving heart. Hence, it is a gift of God and not of works.

 

[savedbymercy]

the bib

May I point out some reasons why I think you have misapplied this text.

Its not misapplied, believing on Christ is something commanded to be done. Even Paul when instructing the inquiring jailor, who asked, what must I DO to be saved, Paul gave him an imperative, which is another word for command, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved ! So believing is something man is commanded to do. Now if one believes they get saved by what they do, then that cancels out being saved by what Christ did alone, and makes salvation contingent on what the person did, that is works !

Both of these texts are addressed to born again believers

Any intstruction to believe on Christ is given to the born again[saved] ! The phillipan jailor was born again when instructed, those instructed by peter in Acts 2:38 were born again. So really, only the saved are instructed to believe on Christ, or to repent. That is my whole point. However if one insists that they one must believe, or repent in order to get saved, then that becomes a works salvation..

rather it is the OBJECT of faith that either justifies or saves us.

I agree with this statement ! So when do you believe that the object of our Faith[Christ] saved us ? Was it before our believing, was it before we repented ?

Furthermore, justifying faith is not a work of man because it is the state of the new heart given in regeneration. Paul says "WITH THE HEART MAN BELIEVETH" but the old heart is incapable of this.

Yes believing on Christ with the New Heart given in regeneration is a work of man, it is a good deed.

Created unto Good Works !

Eph 2:10

10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

The word works here is the greek word ergon and means:

business, employment, that which any one is occupied

a) that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking

2) any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind

3) an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

The noun is preceded by the adjective good as in good works, and that word is agathos and means:

of good constitution or nature

2) useful, salutary

3) good, pleasant, agreeable, joyful, happy

4) excellent, distinguished

5) upright, honourable


This word is also translated well as in well doing as here Rom 2:7

7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Eph 2:10 good works is the same as Rom 2:7 well doing !

Believers had been created in Christ Jesus unto well doing, well doing that God hath before ordained that they should walk in them or by them !

I am going to share a couple of items that constitute the good works that believers had been ordained to walk in .

The First Good work that a New Creation does it believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Believing is a work, something that man does. Anything man does, and particularly when He does what God commands, then he does a work, a deed, a performance, he does a good deed. James 1:25

But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty[The Gospel], and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed

John writes 1 Jn 3:23

23And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

Believing on the name of the Son of God is commanded by God, who will deny this in light of this verse ?

Believing on Christ is the work of the intellect or the mind or the Heart. Paul writes that man believes with the Heart Rom 10:10

10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Believing here is a well doing of the heart, a good deed or act !

When the Philippian Jailor asked " What must I do to be saved "

Acts 16:30

30And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

31And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

The word do here is the greek word poieō which means this:

to act rightly, do well

to perform: to a promise

The word do is a verb and so denotes action !

And Paul answered with an imperative " Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and though shalt be saved"

The word believe here in the greek is an imperative, a command to do something, so its a work, an effort or performance of ones mind. God does not believe for one, that is something man must do.

Again, believing is an action, a command is a duty, all this denotes a work, a good work !

 

[The Biblicist]

the bib

Yes believing on Christ with the New Heart given in regeneration is a work of man, it is a good deed.

The character of the heart given by God is a righteous heart. Do you believe that its righteous condition is a "work" of man or was it created that way by God?

The character of the heart given by God is a believing heart. Do you believe that its believing condition is a "work" of man or was it created that way by God.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith and THAT NOT OF YOURSELVES, for it is a gift of God NOT OF WORKS.

Here "are ye saved" represents what is called a paraphrastic construct in the Greek text. It is the combination of a perfect tense verb with the present tense verb. The perfect tense conveys the idea of a completed action in the past that continues complete right up to the point of speaking. However, when joined with the present tense verb it emphasizes the on going continuance of that perfected action.

This perfected action occurred "through faith." This faith is therefore "by grace" as the phrase "that not of yourselves, for it is a gift of God not of works" refers grammatically to the whole phrase "for by grace are ye saved through faith."

Hence, faith is not "of works."

Again this is the explicit teaching of Paul in Romans 4:16

"It is therefore of faith that it might be OF GRACE" -

Paul is talking in context about faith in regard to justification (see Romans 4:1-15). In context of Ephesians 2:1-7 Paul is talking about the faith at the point of regeneration or quickening.

What is "by grace" and "of grace" cannot be "of works" and faith that occurs at the past tense completed action of regeneration and justification is "by grace" and "of grace" and therefore if it is of grace it is no more of works or else grace is no more grace (Rom. 11:6).

In contrast, the command to believe in the text you have chosen does not refer to faith at regeneration/justification but has to do with progressive sanctification wherein man participates "unto good works." However, the faith in Ephesians 2:8 occurs at the point when God "Created us in Christ Jesus" BEFORE "good works."

 

[savedbymercy]

bib

The character of the heart given by God is a righteous heart.

I know that, that is not in question here. But I noticed you skipped over much of my previous post, probably because it was so long. However, there is one question you must answer before we go further, You stated and I quote

rather it is the OBJECT of faith that either justifies or saves us.

I asked in light of your comment there :

I agree with this statement ! So when do you believe that the object of our Faith[Christ] saved us ? Was it before our believing, was it before we repented ?

Could you answer thses questions ? Thanks..

 

[The Biblicist]

bib



I asked in light of your comment there :

I agree with this statement ! So when do you believe that the object of our Faith[Christ] saved us ? Was it before our believing, was it before we repented ?


Could you answer thses questions ? Thanks..

The reason I skipped that question is because I saw no relevance to our discussion about whether justifying faith was "of works" or "of grace."

The term "faith" can express "faithfulness" in given contexts and thus refer to progressive sanctification which involves "good works." I believe that is the context of the verse you are using.

I don't see what the time of justification by faith has to do with whether it is "of grace" or "of works." If justification occurred yesterday, ten years ago, 100 years ago or whatever, how does that affect whether Justification by faith is "of works" or "of grace"?

However, to answer you question according to Biblical context. The faith which is discussed by Paul in Romans 4:16 which is "of grace" is the same faith previously introduced and defended in Romans 4:1-15 in regard to Abraham. The time of justification by faith being considered is found in verses 2, 9-12. Here are the only parts of Romans 4 that discusses the time of Abraham's justification by faith. Verse 2 is refers to Genesis 15:6 as the time when he was justified. Romans 4:10 introduces the term "when" and again points to Genesis 15:6 when he was justified by faith in contrast to Genesis 17 when he was circumcised. This is the same time and same faith that he goes on to say is "of grace" in Rom. 4:16

In regard to faith in Ephesians 2:8 the context is the point of quickening. Ephesians 2:10 "for we are his workmanship created in Christ Jesus" is further explanatory of why "saved by grace through faith" is a gift not of works. Ephesians 2:8 is further explanatory of the time of quickening in verse 5 which in turn refers to the time of quicking in verse 1.

Both passages by context refer to the point in time when Abraham or the Ephesians were either justified and/or quickened some time after their physical birth on earth prior to doing "good works." Hence, jusification by faith is pinpointed at the time of Genesis 15:2 and faith in regard to "saved" in Ephesians 2:8 is pinpointed at the point of quickening in Ephesians 2:1.

However, regardless of the time it occurred, both texts explicitly deny that faith is "of works" but is "of grace" (Eph. 2:8; Rom. 4:16).

 

[savedbymercy]

bib

The reason I skipped that question is because I saw no relevance to our discussion

Well i do,now answer it ! If not, I have nothing else to say to you..

However, to answer you question according to Biblical context. The faith which is discussed by Paul in Romans 4:16 which is "of grace" is the same faith previously introduced and defended in Romans 4:1-15 in regard to Abraham. The time of justification by faith being considered is found in verses 2, 9-12. Here are the only parts of Romans 4 that discusses the time of Abraham's justification by faith. Verse 2 is refers to Genesis 15:6 as the time when he was justified.

Are you saying Abraham was not Justified in Gen 12:3 ?

3And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Paul quotes this scripture in Gal 3:8


8And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Now any reasonable creature knows that Gen 12:3 comes before Gen 15:6. So what say you ? Was Abraham Justified before God when God Preached the Gospel unto Him ?

 

[The Biblicist]

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Well i do,now answer it ! If not, I have nothing else to say to you..

The nature of something is not determined by the time of its occurrence! Time does not change its nature. If you think it does then please provide any scripture where time of occurrence changes the nature of ANYTHING?

However, I have answered you question in explicit detail according to the Biblical context of each scripture (Rom. 4:16; Eph. 2:8) in the lower half of post #36

 

[savedbymercy]

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However, I have answered you question in explicit detail according to the Biblical context

And I responded to that according to biblical context..

 

[The Biblicist]

bib



And I responded to that according to biblical context..

Remember, we are discussing Romans 4:16 "of grace" in the context of Romans 4. That is the "biblical context" of Romans 4:16.

Does Romans 4:2 quote Genesis 12:3 or Genesis 15:6?

I am defining justification by faith in the context of Romans 4 and Romans 4:2 quotes Genesis 15:6 not Genesis 12:3, does it not?

If Romans 4 quoted Genesis 12:3 as its reference point then I would interpret Romans 4:2,16 and justification by faith in regard to Genesis 12:3 but Paul gives Genesis 15:6 as the Bibical context for Romans 4:2-16.

However, Genesis 12:3 and Galatians 3:5-6 point back to Genesis 11 as the actual point when Abraham was justified by faith in the gospel while he was till in Ur of the Chaldees. So lets suppose that was the beginning point. How does that change Paul's statement that "it is of faith that it might be OF GRACE."

Genesis 15:7 shows that the reference point is Ur of the chaldees when Abraham was justified by faith and perfect tense simply demonstrates that what was a completed action in the Ur of Chaldees continues as such right up to Genesis 15:6. The perfect tense in Genesis 12:1-3 demands the perfect tense completed action occurred while in the Ur of Chaldees in Genesis 11.

So we give it a precise point when it was a completed action and that completed action continues as a completed action right up to Genesis 15:7 and right up to the end of Abraham's life. That is exactly what the perfect tense joined with the present tense verb in Ephesians 2:8 teaches. It happened at a specific time in the past and continues as a completed action right up to the point of speaking. Not that it is a DIFFERENT action or a REPEATED action or a PROGRESSIVE incompleted action. Abraham's initial faith stands complete from the initial point He believed in God's promise.

In Genesis 12:1-3 and Genesis 15:1-7 that same promise was just further elaborated on and Abraham's faith continued unwavered with additional revelation.