Rom 5:15-17

[Gup20]

lol, what does these versus have to do with believing being a work ?

Salvation by grace is a covenant of faith. The Law of Moses is the covenant of works. Abraham, the first to be saved by grace through faith was declared righteous because of his belief.

The context of Ephesians is:

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,​

Here we see salvation as the product coming after one believes.

Here are some more verses that say that faith is what you believe, and draws a distinction between "works of the law" and faith:

Phl 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Gen 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Gal 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

Jam 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

2Cr 4:13 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;

Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which [he had yet] being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

Hbr 11:6 But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

1Pe 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.​

I believe in Salvation by Grace through Faith.

So you have faith in faith itself.

But I cannot accept salvation by works, by what a man does. Thats denied by Eph 2:9

9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

If you believe you are saved because of anything you did, that is works !

I too do not believe in Salvation by works. But I recognize the truth revealed in the Bible that faith is not a work, but rather a belief.

 

[The Biblicist]

Abraham, the first to be saved by grace through faith was declared righteous because of his belief. QUOTE]

What gives you the idea that Abraham was the "first" to be saved by Grace through faith? Does Hebrews 11 begin with Abraham or Abel (Heb. 11:4-5)? Does Jesus name Abraham or Abel to be the first prophet that preached righteousnessness? Does not Peter say that Noah was a preacher of righteousness and that he found "grace" in the eyes of the Lord?

Perhaps you think that the use of "father" as applied to Abraham in regard to "all that believe" infers that? However, is not this very term metaphorical in regard to Gentile believers rather than literal? Can the term "father" be used metaphorical or a role model or example? Isn't that the very design that Paul introduces Abraham in the context of Romans 3:24-4:25 as a role model or example of "justification by faith"?

 

[savedbymercy]

gup

I too do not believe in Salvation by works.

I believe you do. And for that discussion there is a thread already runnung.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=74882

This one is for The Truth of Romans 5:15-17

 

[savedbymercy]

gup

Here we see salvation as the product coming after one believes.

Thats works salvation. Believing is something man does, so if it results in his salvation, then he is saved by his works, something he did. I told you that you believe in salvation by works, by something man does !

 

[Gup20]

Abraham, the first to be saved by grace through faith was declared righteous because of his belief.

What gives you the idea that Abraham was the "first" to be saved by Grace through faith? Does Hebrews 11 begin with Abraham or Abel (Heb. 11:4-5)? Does Jesus name Abraham or Abel to be the first prophet that preached righteousnessness? Does not Peter say that Noah was a preacher of righteousness and that he found "grace" in the eyes of the Lord?

Perhaps you think that the use of "father" as applied to Abraham in regard to "all that believe" infers that? However, is not this very term metaphorical in regard to Gentile believers rather than literal? Can the term "father" be used metaphorical or a role model or example? Isn't that the very design that Paul introduces Abraham in the context of Romans 3:24-4:25 as a role model or example of "justification by faith"?

Yes, the fact that Abraham is called the father of them who believe is a compelling argument. However, it is not the only argument. Galatians 4:21-31 and Romans 4 both describe two covenants God made with man whereby one can be righteous. The first is the law and the second is by promise through faith. Since the covenant of faith was first made to Abraham, this is the reason those who are saved by faith are blessed with Abraham;

Rom 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, [was] not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14 For if they which are of the law [be] heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, [there is] no transgression.
16 Therefore [it is] of faith, that [it might be] by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

Gal 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he [who was] of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman [was] by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.


Gal 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, [saying], In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
17 And this I say, [that] the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
18 For if the inheritance [be] of the law, [it is] no more of promise: but God gave [it] to Abraham by promise.​

Why do I say Abraham is the first? Because that's what Paul says... that the covenant of Faith was given to Abraham. Salvation by faith did not exist before this because salvation by faith was by promise to Abraham 430 years prior to the law of Moses.

Abel was under Romans 4:15 and 5:13-14 which says sin is not imputed when there is no law. Abel may have committed sin according to the law of Moses, but that sin was not imputed to him because the law had not yet been given. The only law at that time was not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and there was no chance of breaking that law.

As far as it being metaphorical and only meaning Gentile believers, I would look to Jesus. He was talking to Jews (not gentiles) when he said,

Jhn 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.​

Why are they not Abraham's seed?

Jhn 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am [he], ye shall die in your sins.
45 And because I tell [you] the truth, ye believe me not.
51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw [it], and was glad.​

 

[mandym]

Salvation by faith did not exist before this because salvation by faith was by promise to Abraham 430 years prior to the law of Moses.

This is just plain heresy

 

[Gup20]

gup



Thats works salvation. Believing is something man does, so if it results in his salvation, then he is saved by his works, something he did. I told you that you believe in salvation by works, by something man does !

I just gave you a dozen verses that contradict you.

Here are some more:

Jhn 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am [he], ye shall die in your sins.

Jhn 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

Rom 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;​

Jesus and Paul both seem pretty conditional here... if you believe (faith), you will be saved. If you do not believe, you will not be saved.

 

[Gup20]

Salvation by faith did not exist before this because salvation by faith was by promise to Abraham 430 years prior to the law of Moses.

This is just plain heresy

It's not my idea, it is the Apostle Paul's idea.

Gal 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, [saying], In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.


Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
17 And this I say, [that] the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

Gen 15:5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Gal 3:8 says God preached the gospel to Abraham. Gal 3:16 says that when God spoke to Abraham about his seed, God used the singular and was referring specifically to Christ. When Abraham believed God - believed the Gospel - this was counted as righteousness. This was 430 years before the law came. There is nothing heretical about it. It is 100% supported by scripture, and is exactly the Gospel that Paul was preaching to both the Romans and the Galatians.

Read Genesis 15-17, Galatians 3-4, and Romans 4. It is spelled out plainly exactly as I have stated it.

 

[Gup20]

gup



I believe you do. And for that discussion there is a thread already runnung.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=74882

This one is for The Truth of Romans 5:15-17

There are two covenants - the law and faith. Works is following the law, whereas faith is believing the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

When Paul says "works" in Ephesians, he is speaking to those who are already believers and understand this distinction.

 

[mandym]

It's not my idea, it is the Apostle Paul's idea.

Gal 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, [saying], In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.


Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
17 And this I say, [that] the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

Gen 15:5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Gal 3:8 says God preached the gospel to Abraham. Gal 3:16 says that when God spoke to Abraham about his seed, God used the singular and was referring specifically to Christ. When Abraham believed God - believed the Gospel - this was counted as righteousness. This was 430 years before the law came. There is nothing heretical about it. It is 100% supported by scripture, and is exactly the Gospel that Paul was preaching to both the Romans and the Galatians.

Read Genesis 15-17, Galatians 3-4, and Romans 4. It is spelled out plainly exactly as I have stated it.

I have never seen a more twisting of scripture. You impose on scripture what is not being said.

 

[Gup20]

I have never seen a more twisting of scripture. You impose on scripture what is not being said.

I think not. This is exactly what Paul is saying. Read Galatians 3-4 and tell me that this is not what Paul is saying. Can you demonstrate in Galatians where I have gone wrong?

In fact... do this - Read Galatians 3-4. Then read Genesis 15-17. Then read Romans 4. Then come back and tell me where I have error.

 

[savedbymercy]

There are two covenants - the law and faith. Works is following the law, whereas faith is believing the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

When Paul says "works" in Ephesians, he is speaking to those who are already believers and understand this distinction.

Believing is something man does ! if you say that you are saved because you believed, an act of man, then you are saved by your work, something you did..

 

[mandym]

I think not. This is exactly what Paul is saying. Read Galatians 3-4 and tell me that this is not what Paul is saying. Can you demonstrate in Galatians where I have gone wrong?

In fact... do this - Read Galatians 3-4. Then read Genesis 15-17. Then read Romans 4. Then come back and tell me where I have error.

Just because god made this covenant with Abraham does not mean that salvation was by works prior to. In fact scripture never indicates any such thing. God made known the Messiah was coming from the start.

Salvation has always been based on faith in the coming Messiah. The law was nothing more than a tool to point to that.

Heb_10:1 For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near.

 

[savedbymercy]

gup

Works is following the law,

Works is following a commandment, which is a law as well 1 Jn 3:23

23And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

If you are saved because you kept a commandment, that is works salvation..

 

[savedbymercy]

Justified before birth !

Rom 5:16-18

16And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

17For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

For if the Righteousness of Christ doth come upon all the Elect unto Justification, in the same manner as Adams sin came upon all men, to condemnation, as the Apostle shows it does, Rom. 5. Then it must follow, That the Righteousness of Christ was reckoned or imputed to the Elect, before they had a Being, and then much more before they do believe in him; for it is evident that Adams sin came upon all men to condemnation, before they had a being !

 

[savedbymercy]

All for whom Christ died and represented shall receive the abundance of Grace and the gift of righteousness, so says the scripture Rom 5:17

much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

They receive it because it abounds to them as vs 15 explains Rom 5:15

15But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

 

[Gup20]

Believing is something man does ! if you say that you are saved because you believed, an act of man, then you are saved by your work, something you did..

Paul defines "works" as "following the law" and he defines "faith" as "believing in the gospel of Jesus Christ." So you are totally incorrect by imposing your own definition of what is meant by "works" upon the scripture.

 

[Gup20]

Just because god made this covenant with Abraham does not mean that salvation was by works prior to. In fact scripture never indicates any such thing. God made known the Messiah was coming from the start.

You make the same mistake as SBM in assuming what is meant by "works." Works doesn't mean "anything you do" it means "following the law to obtain righteousness (salvation)".

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.​

The scripture - and the Apostle Paul specifically - is abundantly clear that faith means believing, and that believing is not a "work". It is self-evident then that "works" is NOT defined as "anything you do." So what does it mean? It means "following the law."

Salvation has always been based on faith in the coming Messiah. The law was nothing more than a tool to point to that.

Right... because salvation by faith (believing) was established well before the law. Just as the scripture says "Abraham believed and was counted righteous."

I beg you -- read Galatians 3-4, Genesis 15-17, and then Romans 4. You will come to see that Paul is absolutely adament that there are two covenants whereby men can be declared righteous. The first is the covenant of faith, and the second is the law. Being "saved" means being made righteous.

 

[savedbymercy]

gup

Paul defines "works" as "following the law

Not so. Thats included, but not limited to that. Paul said not of works Period Eph 2:9


9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Paul uses the works here, it is the greek word ergon and means:

business, employment, that which any one is occupied

a) that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking

2) any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind

3) an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

The word is also translated doing as in Rom 2:7

7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Believing is an good act of the mind, a work . I do not care how you deny it, you contrary to scripture believe and teach salvation by works !

 

[savedbymercy]

mandy

Just because god made this covenant with Abraham does not mean that salvation was by works prior to. In fact scripture never indicates any such thing.

Correct, God never made no covenant with Abraham ! God revealed to Abraham that He was a beneficary of a Covenant, that being the everlasting Covenant of Grace.

What God told Abraham that He was going to do, was unconditional Gen 12:1-3

1Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

2And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

3And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

That was the Covenant Acts 3:25

25Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

That Covenant was not conditioned on Abraham's Faith, in fact, God gave Abraham Faith to believe that promise..