Interpretation of John 6:35-40

I beleive you are circumventing the text by presuppostions formed outside of this text. I find this is the common practice of those who simply will not deal with any text in context - they always jump outside to another text which is not subject to contextual definition in order to escape the problem with the text under consideration.

Why not simply deal with the immediate context before we make a jump outside of this context to another text which we are not exegeting in its proper context??

 

When Jesus was saying this, He was talking to those who were with Him at that time. At that time, Israel was blinded by their continual rebellion. However, some of them weren't blinded, because they saw Him for Who He really was, the Lamb of God. If all of them would have seen, then He would not have been crucified. Those who saw Him for Who He really was, were given to Him by the Father. After He was risen, and seated on the Father He is now drawing all men(John 12:32). Only those who humble themselves, will be saved. God resisth the proud, but giveth Grace to the humble.

 

Think that the big problem that Non cals have on this whole issue is a failure to see that just how spiritually destroyed all of us were as due to Fall of Adam, as we received his penalty from God for sin, and we cannot comre to God in and by ourselves, as our sin natures just will not allow us too!

 

Is there anyone posting that will deal with the evidence provided in posts 11-13 by an exegetical response?

If not, you need to seriously question the exegetical integrity of all the scriptures you use to simply pit against those posts?

 

I believe that the Bible clearly teaches that ALL of us were reckoned by God to be found "In Adam" that bring us spiritual/physical death

believe that the death of Christ on the Cross made definite atonement on behalf of ALL those whom the father has given unto Christ...

that ALl who call upon the name of jesus get saved, and those ALL are the same group the Ftaher decided to give unto His Son, a "faithful remnant" from out of midst of sinful humanity, out of every nation/tongue/and tribe!

that salvation is totally the work of God on our behalf, and that no one can boast of them receiving jesus by "own faith" in Him!

 

No you are not reading the passages correctly. Here are the passages.
6:35-37
And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

The issue is not because the Father did not give them, so they do not believe, but that they did not believe (verse 35) so the Father did not give them and because He did not give them they do not come. All that the Father gives will come, but He only gives those who believe. The believing comes first, not after they are given.

 

First, anyone who has been on this forum for any length of time knows I've gone verse by verse through this chapter on several different occasions.

Second, the question I posed reveals the historical context of the passage in consideration and was not intended to circumvent anything, or form presuppositions out side this text. Asking WHY the people Jesus was addressing were unable to come to him is a valid question which must be answered in order to fully grasp the historical context of these statement and thus the intent of the one's making these statements. This is Hermeneutics 101.

Third, I'd be happy to go verse by verse with you, but first we must address this aspect of the historical context regarding the fact that Israel was being judicially hardened by God and only a select few from Israel were chosen to be Christ's disciples. We must also acknowledge that the means of drawing (the Gospel) had yet to be sent into all the world and the mysteries of the kingdom, including the invitation being extended to all nations, had yet to even be made known when John 6 took place.

If you want to ignore these facts I doubt going verse by verse will help us.

 

Think that we have to first realise that we have to get to the reason why we are condemned , its due to us being both sinners by nature, who have also freely rejected jesus as our saviour!

 

That is not true. We are condemned because we are born in Adam. This is why wqe must be born again in Jesus. We do not have to reject Jesus to be lost. Many people have never heard of Jesus to reject Him yet they are still lost.

 

that is what i said, that we are guilty before God due to us being sinners by both birth and choice!

indeed we are dead spiritually due to the effect of Fall of Adam, and final step in that process will bee final rejection of Christ, but we are in a lost state before God from birth on!

 

Again a person does not have to reject Christ to be lost. There is no final step. We are lost because of one thing and that is our relationship with Adam.

 

Jesusfan said the same thing.

 

Reply to ZRS6V4

I agree with #1, salvation is through faith in Jesus. Only those whose faith is credited as righteousness are "given to Christ."

I agree with #2 but I suspect my understanding of the sentence is vastly different than yours. When God credits a person's faith as righteousness, during their lifetime, and spiritually places them in Christ, that is their individual election for salvation, just as 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says.

I disagree with 3, the Father's will was for Jesus to lay down His life as a ransom for all. Jesus became the propitiation for the whole world. Do not miss the sequence, Calvinism Christ dies for previously chosen individuals, Van's view Christ dies for all mankind and then those chosen during their lifetime "receive" the reconciliation provided by Christ's death.

I agree with 4, once saved always saved.

Here is a closely related post which drills down on the meaning of the John 6:37 phrase "All that the Father gives Me." ( I will post it in my next post)

 

ALL THAT THE FATHER GIVES ME

Understanding the biblical concept of the phrase “all that the Father gives Me” requires careful study of several passages of scripture. First lets look at John 6.

In verse 37, Jesus says (NASB) “All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.” This verse says if a person is given to Christ, it results in salvation 100% of the time; all given come and are not cast out. Second, the sequence seems clear, first if God gives someone they either simultaneously come to Christ or after they are given, they come to Christ, but clearly folks do not come to Christ before they are given.

In verse 44, Jesus says (NASB) “No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws Him; and I will raise Him up on the last day.” This verse says two things, no one can come to Jesus unless God draws him, and everyone that comes to Jesus in this manner is saved, for Jesus will raise him up on the last day.

Putting the two verses together, we get (1) God draws people, (2) some or all those drawn are given to Christ, (3) all those given in this manner come to Jesus, and (4) everyone that comes to Jesus in this manner is saved forever.

In verse 45, Jesus says (NASB) “It is written in the prophets, “And they shall all be taught of God.” Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.”
So everyone who comes to Jesus must first have heard of God, which I think refers to hearing the gospel message. Then, everyone that comes to Jesus must have learned of God from God’s message. I think this learning refers to accepting and trusting in Christ.

Putting all three verses from John 6 together we get, (1) God draws people with the gospel message, (2) some of these hear (understand) the message and believe (having learned), (3) God gives those whose faith He credits as righteousness to Christ, (4) all those God gives in this matter are spiritually placed in Christ (arrive in Christ), and (5) everyone that comes to Jesus in this manner is saved forever.

So based on these verses from John 6 we have a working hypothesis of the meaning of the phrase, “all that the Father gives to Me.”

In verse 65, Jesus says (NASB) “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to me, unless it has been granted Him from the Father.” If God has hardened the hearts of some, they will not understand the gospel and they will be unable to learn from it, is how I understand the verse - using “granted” to mean allowed. If God hardens a person’s heart, like Judas in this passage, then it has not been granted to come to Jesus. Judas certainly heard the message but just as certainly did not learn from it and put his faith in Christ. So it appears to me that this verse is consistent with my working hypothesis.

In John 12:32, Jesus says (NASB) “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.” Christ crucified is the center of the gospel message, so this is somewhat consistent with the working hypothesis. However, to fit, I must understand “all men” to refer to all men who have heard and understood the gospel, because the message of Christ being “lifted up” would not it seems to me to draw folks who either did not hear or understand the gospel. In Matthew 13, the parable of the four soils, Jesus explains that some people have hardened themselves, rather than being hardened by God for His purpose such as Judas or Pharaoh, and it appears to me that those who have hardened their heart to the degree they cannot understand the gospel, will not be drawn by the gospel, Matt. 13:19. Clearly my understanding requires a difference between being drawn to Jesus (John 12:32) and coming to Jesus (John 6:37; 44 and 45).

In order to accept this view as consistent with all scripture, one must accept that to be drawn means understanding a persuasive argument and accepting it to some degree, although not necessarily making a full commitment, i.e. the other soils of Matthew 13.
An alternate view, which I think mistaken, is to view draw as meaning to be compelled irresistibly. Matthew 13 clearly indicated folks could be attracted to the gospel, i.e. receive it with joy, and yet not believe from the heart or with all their heart.

In John 10:29 (NASB) Jesus says, “My Father who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.” First, the “them” refers back to verse 28 and to the ones Christ gives eternal life. In verse 28 Jesus says no one can snatch them out of His (Christ’s) hand and in verse 29 Jesus says no one can snatch them out of His Father’s hand. Thus when we are spiritually placed in Christ, we are in both the Father’s and the Son’s hand, saved forever. To make this clear, Jesus says, (verse 30) “I and My Father are one.” This verse, too, is consistent with the working hypothesis.

In John 17:4 we see that God gives other things to Christ, in this case His work to accomplish, and so we need to look at context to verify that people are being given to Christ for the purpose of their salvation, as opposed to something or someone being given to Christ for some other purpose.

In John 17:6 we see that the Father has given some individuals to Christ, but the purpose was for them to receive the words God had given to Christ (verse 8). We see that these men were given to Christ out of the world, so out of the “kosmos of man” God gave these to Christ for a purpose. These men believed God had sent Jesus, that Jesus was the Messiah.

In verses 9 – 12 we see that Jesus asks in behalf of these men, His disciples, for God to keep them in His name, indicating they were believers and Jesus is asking God to protect their faith, sanctify them in truth so to speak. Jesus says not one of them perished, but the son of Perdition, again indicating these were not given for the purpose of salvation. Jesus then says, verse 20, that He is not asking in behalf of the disciples only, but also for those who will believe in Christ through the message Christ gave them from God.

In John 17:24 (NASB) Jesus says, "Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.” This also refers to Christ’s disciples given to Christ for the purpose of passing on the gospel to the world. To be with Me, again refers to being with Christ as a faithful servant, rather than apart from Christ spreading less than the pure gospel.

If we back up a bit and return to verse 17:6, we see that in these verses, the Father is giving to the Son people who belong to the Father. This begs the question, in what way did the disciples belong to the Father before they were given to the Son. All but Judas were “of God” meaning under the influence of God, looking for the Messiah, trusting in God’s word (Old Testament revelation). From this I conclude Jesus is referring to the eleven, Jesus was not praying in behalf of Judas, and therefore Jesus is saying they belonged to God because they believed in God and were committed to following God as best they knew how.

1 John 5:1 says (NASB), “Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him. Based on the Greek tenses, this verse says that everyone who believes in the present has been born of God in the past. It is God who determines whether or not a person “believes” (Romans 4:5). John 1:12-13 says whoever believes in Christ is given by God the right to become children of God, born by the will of God. So if we put those three verses together we get (3) God gives 100% of those whose faith He credits as righteous to Christ, and (5) everyone that arrives in Christ in this manner is then born again by the will of God and saved forever

In John 3:3 scripture teaches we must have been born again to see the kingdom of God. In John 3:5 scripture teaches we must be born of the Spirit to enter the kingdom of God.

In summary, I have found no passage of scripture that conflicts with this understanding of John 6:37 - (1) God draws people with the gospel message, (2) some of these hear (understand) the message and believe (having learned), (3) God gives those whose faith He credits as righteousness to Christ, (4) all those God gives in this matter are spiritually placed in Christ (arrive in Christ), and (5) everyone that comes to Jesus in this manner is saved forever.

Steps 2 and 3 comprise our individual election unto salvation, according to 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14, which says “… God has chosen you from the beginning [of the New Covenant] for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the Truth. And it was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.” When God chooses to credit our faith as righteousness (Romans 4:5) He then gives us to Christ by spiritually placing us in Christ, thus “all that the Father gives Me” are saved forever.

 

No you are not reading the passages correctly. Here are the passages.
6:35-37
And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

The issue is not because the Father did not give them, so they do not believe, but that they did not believe (verse 35) so the Father did not give them and because He did not give them they do not come. All that the Father gives will come, but He only gives those who believe. The believing comes first, not after they are given.
God draws, we hear, we believe, He gives, Christ saves.

 

All that the Father gives me is speaking of the word of God. No man can believe in Jesus unless he first believes the scriptures given by the Father. So if you believe in Jesus, you can take no credit, for unless the Father had revealed Jesus, you could not possibly believe.

Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

How did Peter know Jesus was the Christ? Because he knew and believed the scriptures.

Jn 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.

Jn 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

If you do not believe the scriptures given by the Father, it is impossible to come to Jesus. If you do come to Jesus, it is because it was revealed and given to you by the Father through the word of God.

 

All that the Father gives me is speaking of the word of God. No man can believe in Jesus unless he first believes the scriptures given by the Father. So if you believe in Jesus, you can take no credit, for unless the Father had revealed Jesus, you could not possibly believe.

Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

How did Peter know Jesus was the Christ? Because he knew and believed the scriptures.

Jn 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.

Jn 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

If you do not believe the scriptures given by the Father, it is impossible to come to Jesus. If you do come to Jesus, it is because it was revealed and given to you by the Father through the word of God.

 

I don't know how Calvin, or anyone can see through faith here. Scripture shows this is presented in the present tense, and concerns those addressed at that time.

If we take Jesus at His word, he tells us He only came for His own people, and no one else. I believe His Father give to Jesus Peter, James, John, and others that came through Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. These I believe will be raised at that last day.

Agree. But again I say we should keep in context for Jesus is speaking only to one group of people, as they live, as we see in verse 40. Everyone that sees Him, and believes on him (not through him) may have everlasting life, and He will raise them on the last day.

I see these scriptures as happening some number of weeks before the Cross. We know, and have read that there was changes made, and not told us until later. Did Calvin, we, or any other man know before we leave the words that Jesus spoke before He ascended, and was seated on the throne, at the right hand of God, His Father?

I am not saying everlasting life can come apart from the blood shed by Jesus Christ.