Grace: potential or actual

This is a ridiculous statement. Adam freely chose God before he sinned and so he got saved? He got saved before he fell? Why did he need to be saved if he was without sin?

 

Reply to fiction

Matthew 23:13 says men were entering heaven. Therefore they had been "enabled" by hearing the gospel and understanding it, yet they were turned aside. Therefore the "enablement" is resistible and therefore does not explain why some fully embrace the gospel and others no so much. Calvinism is unbiblical fiction.

Paul teaches as Robert Snow points out, that our faith in Christ provides our access to saving grace. So while it is God who credits our faith as righteousness, He is crediting our faith, not one He instilled via the fiction of irresistible grace.

As Skandelon pointed out, Jesus would not have needed to speak in parables if the lost were unable to hear and understand and respond and be saved. Therefore Matthew 13 provides compelling evidence that the Total Spiritual Inability is false doctrine. 1 Corinthians 2:14-3:3 teaches the lost, men of flesh, have limited spiritual ability, they can understand the milk of the gospel but not the meat, because to understand the meat they need to be indwelt so the Holy Spirit can provide guidance. So it is impossible for natural men of flesh to understand the "meat" spiritual things of God.

Grace is simply the bestowal of divine favor. Therefore we are saved by grace through faith. This grace is irresistible, it is God crediting our faith as righteousness and placing us spiritually in Christ. But God's revelatory grace, the gospel of Christ is resistible. So by the numbers:

(1) We were created with the capacity to understand the gospel message by the grace of God.

(2) We can by the practice of sin so harden our hearts that we can no longer understand the gospel.

(3) Some individuals for God's greater purpose have their hearts hardened, i.e. the Jews of Romans 11) and they too cannot understand the gospel.

(4) During our lives some of us are and some are not and some more than others cultivated such that we are more open to the gospel by the resistible grace of God.
It was by the grace of God I was born into a Christian family.

(5) Sometimes when first exposed to the gospel it is accepted in full or in part. It is by the grace of God that we are exposed at all, and if believers keep presenting Christ to us by words and deeds, such as showing us kindness, it is by the grace of God.

(6) If God accepts our faith and credits it as righteousness it is by the grace of God. And when He does, He puts us in Christ and nothing can snatch us away from our inheritance of eternal life.

 

The bible is clear that we can choose which is free will.

And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that [were] on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

 

I agree, and I would say the same about what non-Calvinism teaches. I would say: "It would be impossible for me to believe that what non-Calvinism teaches is compatible with scripture."

Your earlier post started: "My view, which is the biblical view..." (my emphasis, of course ).

I have said before (on other threads) that among baptists there are differences of belief on many matters, not just this "C/A" thing. Examples are: eschatology, dispensationalism, cessationism, bible translations, alcohol, "altar calls", and many more.

Of course we must be definite about what we believe, and we must be prepared to back those beliefs up with scripture, but generally on the BB, we do that. (Of course, there may be a few members who do not provide scriptural support for their beliefs, even when asked to do so, but they are, I suggest, in the minority).

Possibly if your earlier post had started, "My view, based on my understanding of the bible," or (far less "wordy") "I believe that the bible teaches.....", or if you had used your opening sentence in the post above, it would have prevented anyone misunderstanding you to mean, "I have a better understanding of the bible than you folks on the other 'side' of the argument, so my view must be the biblical view." I must immediately stress that I am by no means suggesting that you intended to mean that - I'm sure you didn't).

 

I love your answer. Short, but sweet....and precise, too. :thumbs:

 

Deut 1:21-38
21 Behold, the LORD thy God hath set the land before thee: go up and possess it, as the LORD God of thy fathers hath said unto thee; fear not, neither be discouraged.

22 And ye came near unto me every one of you, and said, We will send men before us, and they shall search us out the land, and bring us word again by what way we must go up, and into what cities we shall come.

23 And the saying pleased me well: and I took twelve men of you, one of a tribe:

24 And they turned and went up into the mountain, and came unto the valley of Eshcol, and searched it out.

25 And they took of the fruit of the land in their hands, and brought it down unto us, and brought us word again, and said, It is a good land which the LORD our God doth give us.

26 Notwithstanding ye would not go up, but rebelled against the commandment of the LORD your God:

27 And ye murmured in your tents, and said, Because the LORD hated us, he hath brought us forth out of the land of Egypt, to deliver us into the hand of the Amorites, to destroy us.

28 Whither shall we go up? our brethren have discouraged our heart, saying, The people is greater and taller than we; the cities are great and walled up to heaven; and moreover we have seen the sons of the Anakims there.

29 Then I said unto you, Dread not, neither be afraid of them.

30 The LORD your God which goeth before you, he shall fight for you, according to all that he did for you in Egypt before your eyes;

31 And in the wilderness, where thou hast seen how that the LORD thy God bare thee, as a man doth bear his son, in all the way that ye went, until ye came into this place.

32 Yet in this thing ye did not believe the LORD your God,

33 Who went in the way before you, to search you out a place to pitch your tents in, in fire by night, to shew you by what way ye should go, and in a cloud by day.

34 And the LORD heard the voice of your words, and was wroth, and sware, saying,

35 Surely there shall not one of these men of this evil generation see that good land, which I sware to give unto your fathers.

36 Save Caleb the son of Jephunneh; he shall see it, and to him will I give the land that he hath trodden upon, and to his children, because he hath wholly followed the LORD.

37 Also the LORD was angry with me for your sakes, saying, Thou also shalt not go in thither.

38 But Joshua the son of Nun, which standeth before thee, he shall go in thither: encourage him: for he shall cause Israel to inherit it.


Proverbs 1:23-33
23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.

24 Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;

25 But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:

26 I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;

27 When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.

28 Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:

29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:

30 They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.

31 Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.

32 For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them.

33 But whoso hearkeneth unto me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil.




Matthew 23:36-38
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.



Right here are three examples of where the Lord was willing, ready, and able, but they would not believe.

 

We won't solve this "tension" between God's Sovereignty vs Man's responsibilty.

The best we can do is have a preference or remain undecided (my choice) - mugwump.

Benefit: I feel just as comfortable among C preference as A preference Christians. Probably so do most of us here at the BB.

I do however have somewhat of a resolution - in the schema which I lean torwards, the selection of the elect is an agreement:

Isaiah 1

18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:​

Acts 24

24 And after certain days, when Felix came with his wife Drusilla, which was a Jewess, he sent for Paul, and heard him concerning the faith in Christ.
25 And as he reasoned of righteousness, temperance, and judgment to come, Felix trembled, and answered, Go thy way for this time; when I have a convenient season, I will call for thee.​

My sense of this is that "at the end of the day" we all put our stamp of approval upon what we are.​

The lost will be quite content to suffer and be eternally separated from God (considering the alternative).​

Scripture:
Revelation 16
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.​

There is no agnoticism or atheism in this passage but an apparent and abiding hatred of God.

HankD​

 

Amy: Where righteousness abounds, grace does much more abound.
Paul: Where sin abounds, grace does much more abound.

 

Adam could no more prevent his own corruption than iron can prevent its own rust. Once he was introduced to a lie, it was over.

 

Jesus: For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.

(Matt 13:12-13)

Aaron, do you understand what Jesus is saying here?

 

Adam was not deceived. He knew the truth and he willfully went against it by personal choice.

 

Of course, and it undermines your very premise! :laugh:

 

I didn't say he was deceived. I said he was corrupted, and a corrupt tree cannot bring forth good fruit.

 

And in your view God clinches the deal of rebellion, right?

Goes both ways, the difference is that in our view we can still give full praise for the Grace provided to all, knowing full well that those who rebelled did so in the face of a loving benevolent God sincerely holding out his hands to them in gracious patience, and thus they fully deserve the punishment due them for their unbelief. In our view God gets praise for both the grace that leads to salvation and the grace rejected, while in your view He may get credit for the grace toward the select few, but he also get blame for the rebellion of those reject his appeal for reconciliation. I know you all deny that, but if you are going to mischaracterize us for taking credit for the 'positive side' of the choice then what keeps us from mischaracterizing your side by blaming God for the 'negative side' of that 'choice?'

 

Not at all. For anyone willing to listen, God will reveal more of Himself. For those who have hardened their hearts against Him, He will take away even what they know of Him. Apparently you don't understand.

 

12 Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. 13 This is why I speak to them in parables: "Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand. 14 In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: " 'You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. 15 For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.'

Actually, it undermines yours. It clearly states that had their hearts not "become calloused...they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them." Which is impossible if the concept of 'total inability' is true.

 

If you are talking after him being corrupted because he sinned then I agree. However the post sounded like you were saying that Adam had no choice but to eat (sin) and that would be false.

 

:applause::applause:nice

 

Adam was creasted without a sin nature by God though, and he had the free will from god to make the choice...

he sinned, than received a sinner nature, becoming spiritually a dead person....