Where is the IFB Sytematic Theology?

[Earth Wind and Fire]

They were the Church for all practical purposes, even though the leadership strayed greatly. Without them there would, in all likelihood, be no church at all today.

The RCC is still the Church in beautiful down town New Jersey with 65-70% registered as Roman Catholic. They do spend lots of time in my town feeding the illegals to the point that they have their own church service (mass) at 6pm each Sunday (and the church is filled with them). 200 at a clip....all worshiping Mary in procession (burning incense & sprinkling holy water) Now the Methodists are catching on & are conducting services on Saturday night to emulate the catholics. And the closest Arminian Baptist cant gather over 25 on any given Sunday! LOL

Clearly, the mission field in my home town is not the dieing Protestant & Baptist churches but the RCC's & apparently these modernized Methodists. I plan to go into those two errr churches & minister to this growing population. (Maybe I should learn Spanish)

 

[DHK]

In your zeal (often without knowledge) you forget that the Roman Catholic Church assemblies may have been the only gatherings of a Christian nature in a given area. Every RC church can't be broad-brushed. Some were more truly committed to the Lord than others. There have been some godly Roman Catholics. The elect of the Lord,no doubt have been among the Roman Catholics as well as other more orthodox bodies.

"They protested against it [R.C.]always"? Really? Document that.

I can document this:
The doctrine of the RCC is diametrically opposed to the doctrine of the gospel as presented in the Bible. One cannot believe salvation by grace through faith and fully believe and understand RCC doctrine at the same time. It is an impossibility, more of an impossibility than to be an Arminian and a Calvinist at the same time. It just can't be done. If one is saved by the grace of God, he automatically, in his life, doctrine and character becomes one who protests against the heresies of the RCC. It can't be any other way.

 

[David Lamb]

I bet you can't get john of Japan or any other educated IFB to agree with this remark.

Not sure what your point is here Luke. Are you suggesting that John of Japan is a Roman Catholic sympathizer?

 

[seekingthetruth]

They were the Church for all practical purposes, even though the leadership strayed greatly. Without them there would, in all likelihood, be no church at all today.

The RCC is still the Church in beautiful down town New Jersey with 65-70% registered as Roman Catholic. They do spend lots of time in my town feeding the illegals to the point that they have their own church service (mass) at 6pm each Sunday (and the church is filled with them). 200 at a clip....all worshiping Mary in procession (burning incense & sprinkling holy water) Now the Methodists are catching on & are conducting services on Saturday night to emulate the catholics. And the closest Arminian Baptist cant gather over 25 on any given Sunday! LOL
Clearly, the mission field in my home town is not the dieing Protestant & Baptist churches but the RCC's & apparently these modernized Methodists. I plan to go into those two errr churches & minister to this growing population. (Maybe I should learn Spanish)

That is truely a sad thing for you to find funny.

Besides that, I doubt there are many true Arminian Baptist churches in your town, since most Baptists do hold to eternal security.

This is truely an immature comment on your part

John

 

[JesusFan]

Let's get together in the Sports Forum--quietly--and do some virtual sticky hands.:smilewinkgrin:

just curious...

is there a danger of a Christian being in "eastern" style martial arts?
As they tend to be 'flavored" with a definite non Christian worldview, as part of being in a eastern religious mindset?

Western styles seem to be mainly on excercing the physical aspects of training and skill development, yet estern styles bring in eastern religious views also?

 

[Robert Snow]

That is truely a sad thing for you to find funny.

Besides that, I doubt there are many true Arminian Baptist churches in your town, since most Baptists do hold to eternal security.

This is truely an immature comment on your part

John

I believe it is obvious that EW&F doesn't have a clue what he is talking about when it comes to non-Calvinistic Baptist churches.

 

[JesusFan]

I believe it is obvious that EW&F doesn't have a clue what he is talking about when it comes to non-Calvinistic Baptist churches.

isn't there as part of the "baptist Umbrella" churches holding to Dog that are reformed/non reformed, those holing to arminian and those holding to "Free Grace"?

 

[Jkdbuck76]

just curious...

is there a danger of a Christian being in "eastern" style martial arts?
As they tend to be 'flavored" with a definite non Christian worldview, as part of being in a eastern religious mindset?

Western styles seem to be mainly on excercing the physical aspects of training and skill development, yet estern styles bring in eastern religious views also?

If you studied Russian Sambo, they'd try to convert you to the Russian Orthodox church. I've heard that complaint. JoJ has a pretty good post on this somewhere. Maybe he can help you out with it.

Bottom line: you tell the potential teacher that you will not be learning if Eastern Mysticism is a part of learning. Be very up-front. I did martial arts for 18 years and had to quit when our son was born. John of Japan has been at it longer than I have, so he's been around that world longer than I have.

 

[glfredrick]

I don't believe this is an accurate statement at all. God has kept throughout all of history churches that have been true to the word of God, and didn't need the RCC's help. In fact they protested against it always. God knows them that are his. He promised never to forsake them. God's people have left a history that is written in blood more than in paper, (and I am not referring to the The Trail of Blood). For this reason documents are often relatively hard to find, especially when someone like Innocent III comes with the sole purpose of totally wiping out the Albigenses. Then you wonder why there are not much in the way or original works??

And, so, here we go...

Please cite sources. Next, please outline the extent of these groups -- apart from the RCC -- that made their mark wide enough on the world to have become a factor in the continuence of the church at large.

I am not ignorant of the promises in Scripture. I hang my hat on them as do all true believers, but I have problems with revisionist history that cannot be verified. Taking your tack on things, we might as well be... Gasp... Mormons. They too invented a history where none existed from circumstantial evidence apart from any verifiable fact.

You mentioned the Albigenses. But do you mention the fact that one of their theological doctrines was that there were two gods in competition, a god of light and a god of darkness? They also taught the heretical view that Jesus was all God and not man at all. That is not the God, nor the Christ of the Bible! Are they our spiritual fathers? I certainly hope not!

You also make an argument from silence concerning their writings. Of course, they were the most noble of all Christian peoples because the Catholic Church destroyed all their documents and we cannot prove otherwise... Realize the fallacy you are presenting in that statement!

And, yes, I know about a good many the groups that stood apart from the RCC. I've already mentioned that. I also mentioned that they were all factions FROM the RCC, and that many were heretical. From which of these groups will you claim ancestry? Perhaps the Montanists? Or maybe the Ebionites? The Priscillianists or maybe the Donatists? What of the Meletians? Each of these sects had one or more things in common with modern Baptists, but they were widely heretical in other areas of doctrine. Are they all our forerunners? Really? Just for the sake of disavowing the RCC? Okay... :thumbsup:

Were there true believers in some of these sects and also in the RCC? By God's grace, of course. His promises are true and He is faithful to keep His Word. His Church has always existed, even when the surrounding religious climate was heretical to a fault. But, we can only trace THAT group of people with the concept of God's universal church, not through fringe groups that were themselves heretical in nature and limited in scope so as to not truly impact the world in any meaningful way for Christ and the true kingdom of God.

 

[JesusFan]

And, so, here we go...

Please cite sources. Next, please outline the extent of these groups -- apart from the RCC -- that made their mark wide enough on the world to have become a factor in the continuence of the church at large.

I am not ignorant of the promises in Scripture. I hang my hat on them as do all true believers, but I have problems with revisionist history that cannot be verified. Taking your tack on things, we might as well be... Gasp... Mormons. They too invented a history where none existed from circumstantial evidence apart from any verifiable fact.

You mentioned the Albigenses. But do you mention the fact that one of their theological doctrines was that there were two gods in competition, a god of light and a god of darkness? They also taught the heretical view that Jesus was all God and not man at all. That is not the God, nor the Christ of the Bible! Are they our spiritual fathers? I certainly hope not!

You also make an argument from silence concerning their writings. Of course, they were the most noble of all Christian peoples because the Catholic Church destroyed all their documents and we cannot prove otherwise... Realize the fallacy you are presenting in that statement!

And, yes, I know about a good many the groups that stood apart from the RCC. I've already mentioned that. I also mentioned that they were all factions FROM the RCC, and that many were heretical. From which of these groups will you claim ancestry? Perhaps the Montanists? Or maybe the Ebionites? The Priscillianists or maybe the Donatists? What of the Meletians? Each of these sects had one or more things in common with modern Baptists, but they were widely heretical in other areas of doctrine. Are they all our forerunners? Really? Just for the sake of disavowing the RCC? Okay... :thumbsup:

Were there true believers in some of these sects and also in the RCC? By God's grace, of course. His promises are true and He is faithful to keep His Word. His Church has always existed, even when the surrounding religious climate was heretical to a fault. But, we can only trace THAT group of people with the concept of God's universal church, not through fringe groups that were themselves heretical in nature and limited in scope so as to not truly impact the world in any meaningful way for Christ and the true kingdom of God.

Just a question...

After the Aposolic Age, was there EVER a single church/branch that we would consider as being the ONLY true brand of it?

As seems that there were different streams of the church east/west after Apostles, and that the church had several different brands even early on!

 

[Luke2427]

Actually I do agree with DHK on this. The Catholic religion did not even start until 313, and even then it did not exist in its present form (Mariolatry, the authority of church tradition, etc.) By 313 virtually all major doctrines were decided. So the Catholics did not give us the major doctrines, only a false Gospel and various other false doctrines which the Reformers had to distance themselves from and reject.

Oh, yes, they did give us Vaticanus--shucks!

John, surely you know that it wasn't until a decade later that even the TRINITY was settled. Surely.

 

[Luke2427]

Not sure what your point is here Luke. Are you suggesting that John of Japan is a Roman Catholic sympathizer?

No. I am suggesting that I thought John had enough education to know that the catholic church was not always evil and that the true church existed within her ranks for many years.

I thought he had better sense than to embrace this pseudo-history of an unbroken line of baptistic people completely without the ranks of the catholic church all the way back to the nt.

I thought enough of him to believe he recognized that nearly every theological position he and his espouse came,not from this mythical line of baptists, but from the historical church, the true church which existed within the ranks of the catholic church for many years.

 

[Luke2427]

I can document this:
The doctrine of the RCC is diametrically opposed to the doctrine of the gospel as presented in the Bible. One cannot believe salvation by grace through faith and fully believe and understand RCC doctrine at the same time. It is an impossibility, more of an impossibility than to be an Arminian and a Calvinist at the same time. It just can't be done. If one is saved by the grace of God, he automatically, in his life, doctrine and character becomes one who protests against the heresies of the RCC. It can't be any other way.

Which doctrine, Dhk?

And be sure to point out when this doctrine came to pass and why it being the official doctrine of the rcc means that everyone within the ranks had to believe it.

 

[Luke2427]

And, so, here we go...

Please cite sources. Next, please outline the extent of these groups -- apart from the RCC -- that made their mark wide enough on the world to have become a factor in the continuence of the church at large.

I am not ignorant of the promises in Scripture. I hang my hat on them as do all true believers, but I have problems with revisionist history that cannot be verified. Taking your tack on things, we might as well be... Gasp... Mormons. They too invented a history where none existed from circumstantial evidence apart from any verifiable fact.

You mentioned the Albigenses. But do you mention the fact that one of their theological doctrines was that there were two gods in competition, a god of light and a god of darkness? They also taught the heretical view that Jesus was all God and not man at all. That is not the God, nor the Christ of the Bible! Are they our spiritual fathers? I certainly hope not!

You also make an argument from silence concerning their writings. Of course, they were the most noble of all Christian peoples because the Catholic Church destroyed all their documents and we cannot prove otherwise... Realize the fallacy you are presenting in that statement!

And, yes, I know about a good many the groups that stood apart from the RCC. I've already mentioned that. I also mentioned that they were all factions FROM the RCC, and that many were heretical. From which of these groups will you claim ancestry? Perhaps the Montanists? Or maybe the Ebionites? The Priscillianists or maybe the Donatists? What of the Meletians? Each of these sects had one or more things in common with modern Baptists, but they were widely heretical in other areas of doctrine. Are they all our forerunners? Really? Just for the sake of disavowing the RCC? Okay... :thumbsup:

Were there true believers in some of these sects and also in the RCC? By God's grace, of course. His promises are true and He is faithful to keep His Word. His Church has always existed, even when the surrounding religious climate was heretical to a fault. But, we can only trace THAT group of people with the concept of God's universal church, not through fringe groups that were themselves heretical in nature and limited in scope so as to not truly impact the world in any meaningful way for Christ and the true kingdom of God.

Bingo.

Check and mate.

 

[glfredrick]

They were the Church for all practical purposes, even though the leadership strayed greatly. Without them there would, in all likelihood, be no church at all today.

The RCC is still the Church in beautiful down town New Jersey with 65-70% registered as Roman Catholic. They do spend lots of time in my town feeding the illegals to the point that they have their own church service (mass) at 6pm each Sunday (and the church is filled with them). 200 at a clip....all worshiping Mary in procession (burning incense & sprinkling holy water) Now the Methodists are catching on & are conducting services on Saturday night to emulate the catholics. And the closest Arminian Baptist cant gather over 25 on any given Sunday! LOL

Clearly, the mission field in my home town is not the dieing Protestant & Baptist churches but the RCC's & apparently these modernized Methodists. I plan to go into those two errr churches & minister to this growing population. (Maybe I should learn Spanish)

So, in your new Reformed guise, would you say that the RCC is as successful as it is in your area because of the actions of sinful mankind or a sovereign move of God? Be careful, it is a trick question!

I've found that the Scriptures say that "the fields are white unto harvest..." and that we are to pray the Lord of the harvest to send laborers into those ripe fields, but we also know, both from Scripture and from example that "the laborers are few..."

Perhaps a few "laborers" could reap a harvest from this vast un-tapped potential of lost population if only they walked those white fields with the harvest scythe of the gospel! And, with that thought, I've not noticed that any particular bunch of people are any more resistent to the gospel (save for a more Arminian perspective, which gives creedence to sucn drivel) but rahter, faithful men have simply failed to go as Christ commanded.

So, which is it? I've even given you the answer to the question! :laugh:

 

[John of Japan]

just curious...

is there a danger of a Christian being in "eastern" style martial arts?
As they tend to be 'flavored" with a definite non Christian worldview, as part of being in a eastern religious mindset?

Western styles seem to be mainly on excercing the physical aspects of training and skill development, yet estern styles bring in eastern religious views also?

The short answer is, a punch is a punch is a punch. And you practice the punch according to your religion. Japanese may do a little Buddhist meditation. Christians will pray before the class. And so on. My style of kung fu may well be the first ever formed by Christians on Christian principles and specifically for evangelism and church growth. We try to do all for the glory of God.

If you want a long and theological answer, check out my book on Asian monism and the Christian martial artist on my website.

 

[preacher4truth]

The short answer is, a punch is a punch is a punch. And you practice the punch according to your religion. Japanese may do a little Buddhist meditation. Christians will pray before the class. And so on. My style of kung fu may well be the first ever formed by Christians on Christian principles and specifically for evangelism and church growth. We try to do all for the glory of God.

If you want a long and theological answer, check out my book on Asian monism and the Christian martial artist on my website.

I won't mess with ya John!!! :love2:

 

[Robert Snow]

The Roman Catholic Church has always been an apostate church. True, there have been true believers who have attended, that even happens today, but it does not change that the Harlot of Revelation has always been apostate.

Martin Luther was obedient to the call in Revelation to come out of her when he nailed his 95 Theses to the church door at Wittenberg.

 

[John of Japan]

John, surely you know that it wasn't until a decade later that even the TRINITY was settled. Surely.

Surely you know that the Council of Nicea (12 years after 313) only confirmed what the Holy Spirit had already taught the pastors and people. Surely. Human councils did not settle doctrine. The Holy Spirit did to His people.

 

[seekingthetruth]

Bingo.

Check and mate.

I am surprised you didn't just say "Na-Na, Na-Boo-Boo", it would have been just as mature.

John