Grace: potential or actual II

Alrighty then. What caused Adam's heart to become corrupted prior to him eating the fruit? If his heart were corrupted before eating, then it wasn't the tree of knowledge of good and evil's fault. Sin is what causes corruption. What sin did Adam commit for his heart to have changed?

 

Allow me to explain. They think of men kind of like we think of animals who have instinct. For example, the nature or heart of a Lion is created to desire meat, right? So, if you gave the Lion a "choice" between eating a salad or a slab of raw meat the Lion would always "choose" the meat, right?

This is the way they think God has created men. They think God created men with a nature where he will always choose according to instinctive type desires, like the lion who 'chooses' meat. We understand that is not really a 'choice' but merely a instinctive response, but they think that is all that is required for something to be considered a free morally accountable choice. Of course, in this system of thought, the only real difference in the lion and the man is that the man will suffer for eternity in hell for his instinctive responses and the Lion won't. Lucky lions!

 

What exactly do you mean by a pure heart? Sinless? If so I agree, up until he sinned, he had a pure heart. However if you mean he was created with no ability to have personal desires you are incorrect. With those desires he could think, rationalize and choose, and he chose the Burgar King way.

 

Apparently you're saying that God corrupted Adam. But I have no idea.

The bible says Adam was good until he "became like us, knowing good from evil". His knowledge came from eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. So until that time, Adam was still good.

 

So according to this scenario, Adam ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil because it was his nature to rebel against God?


It would really help if Aaron would just come out and say what he believes. :BangHead:

 

It hasn't however revealed your intention. I'm bored with this game. :sleep:

 

You've got him Willis, it's just like evolutionists, take them back to the BEGINNING and they have painted themselves into a corner. And Calvinists, just like evolutionists do not like to go back to the beginning. We ALL know what the logical conclusion to your question is if Calvinism is true, but they will NEVER admit it.

Checkmate!

 

No Brother. The one thing that this thread has revealed is that you can not give a biblical answer to my question I have asked you TWICE. Now for the third time. What corrupted Adam's heart that caused him to sin prior to ingesting the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil?


I will be waiting with baited breath............

 

Well, Bro. Aaron dug the hole. I am just giving him a bigger shovel......

 

YES....I can smell you all the way up here! Pew:laugh:

 

Well, I DID just get home from work. Now, where's that toothbrush? :laugh:

 

Aaron, it is possible that it is you who have missed the point of the fall of Adam.

Adam was "cursed" by God for his willful sin. Before his fall into sin, he was a "free man" not a slave to sin as those born after him, nor a slave to Christ because of a regenerated, reconciled heart. He was the sole member of the human race (and Eve with him) who ACTUALLY had a choice. That is not an Arminian thought and we dare not pin every example of free expression of will on Arminian doctrine -- such is not the case -- the Scriptures have some things to say on the subject that we, even in holding God's sovereignty as our prime directive, must consider. You are "eisegeting" Arminian concepts back into a biblical picture well before they were ever considered by man or beast.

God clearly said that man was "very good" on the day He created humankind. You are saying that God created a corrupt being instead of pronounced a curse of corruption on the whole earth because of the fall into sin of one man. While it is true that Adam had the capability to sin by his actions/choices, that does not, in and of itself, equal a corrupt creation. Also, we should note that Christ was not speaking "in context" of Adam when he noted the bad tree/bad fruit in His teaching. He was comparing "good trees/good fruit" with "bad trees/bad fruit" in a dialog concerning false prophets. No mention of creation nor of Adam in that dialog at all, so inferring that the bad tree/bad fruit issue extends to Adam's creation is at best a stretch and at worst a mis-handling of the issue.

 

True... But can a good tree become a bad tree? Surely there are things that happen to good trees to cause them to become bad, producing bad fruit, right? I don't recall that Jesus mentioned that issue, other than the fact that we are all "bad trees" by choice and by birth, yet we become "good" because of Christ's imputed righteousness.

I agree with that statement.

But, God is not us... Sin is both an ability and a choice. We, in our current state have had the choice removed from us, in a manner of speaking. Not that we cannot make a good choice, as would a good tree bear good fruit, but rather that we probably will not make that choice based on our cursed nature.

I do like the way you phrased sin as a lack of ability however. Seems to fit with what I am trying to say.

I'm not sure we can be as forceful on the "no exception" clause you tie to this statement. I read in my Bible that God works out all things for good...

No, I'm arguing that Adam was a good tree made into a bad tree, and that as a bad tree, he produced bad fruit.

I've been in horticultural work for decades, and I find a good many of the biblical illustrations that use a horticultural basis are misunderstood by a good many people in an otherwise good-hearted effort to grasp what Christ or one of the other inspired writers are trying to say. I've seen otherwise "good" trees that were corrupted by outside influences, disease, bugs, drought, cutting their roots, etc. Once corrupted they seldom, if ever, recover, and yes, the "fruit" produced by those trees is also corrupt to an extent, save for the fact that a seed may actually produce another good tree... The concept is not as universal as you are trying to make it, neither with Christ nor with horticulture.

 

:sleep:Just like going to church:sleep: