Tithing and debts

[evangelist6589]

Listening to some old Way of the Master podcasts and Todd has said a number of times not to tithe or give money until you are debt free. I wonder if what he says is Biblical as Dr. Stanley, Dr. Lutzer, and also Dr. MacArthur have said otherwise. Dr. MacArthur has said that the tithe is not for today, but he also has said that God does not guarantee us free from trial and hardship, so to wait till we are debt free seems ludicrous as so few people these days are debt free. Dr. Stanley & Dr. Lutzer teach to tithe even if in debt.

Todd Friel (a radio evangelist) makes a great salary and I dont expect him to understand what life is like for those with meager salaries, and whom have had it hard. What do you say? I know this is a very controversial subject. Personally just because the tithe is not me mentioned in the NT does not make it unbiblical as some believe. I dont think its a law in the NT, but God does desire is to support our churches. If supporting them was only up to those that are debt free, then there would only be a few churches in our land.


John

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I agree with MacArthur

 

[evangelist6589]

I agree with MacArthur

In other words give what we can, but dont neglect to give because we have debts.

 

[evangelist6589]

I sent a message to the radio station of this evangelist.

Todd,

I have listened to a number of the Way of the Master podcasts some of which you give people advice on tithing. According to you one should not tithe if they are in debt. What chapter and what verse do you get this? Only a few are able to live debt free lives, and this may be hard for someone with your salary to understand. If only those debt free supported churches and para church ministries, there would only a be a few. Do you want a nation with only a few churches and para church ministries only supported by those that are debt free?

I like you as an evangelist but I think you completely have got it wrong on this issue. Dr. MacArthur for example has said that God does not guarantee us free from trail and hardship in this life. If everyone made the kind of money that you make then perhaps more could be debt free, but I myself have a meager salary and unfortunately have debts.


Thanks,


John

 

[JesusFan]

In other words give what we can, but dont neglect to give because we have debts.

We would not be under the tithe of the Old Covenant per say, BUT under theprinciple of giving back to God what he has blessed us to steward for Him...

Giving back proportionally, based upon how much you have been given by Him...

God NEVER said do not give, but give from a willing heart based upon how you are blessed!

By jusy stoppong until debt free, you are not fulfiing the word of God, and not allowing Him to be part of the monies being reinvested in to His work!

 

[evangelist6589]

We would not be under the tithe of the Old Covenant per say, BUT under theprinciple of giving back to God what he has blessed us to steward for Him...

Giving back proportionally, based upon how much you have been given by Him...

God NEVER said do not give, but give from a willing heart based upon how you are blessed!

By jusy stoppong until debt free, you are not fulfiing the word of God, and not allowing Him to be part of the monies being reinvested in to His work!

Also how many people are debt free these days? 1% of the population? .05 % of the population?


John

 

[Crabtownboy]

1. Title you gross income.
2. Never go into debt for anything that deprecates in value.
3. Live beneath your means.

 

[freeatlast]

Listening to some old Way of the Master podcasts and Todd has said a number of times not to tithe or give money until you are debt free. I wonder if what he says is Biblical as Dr. Stanley, Dr. Lutzer, and also Dr. MacArthur have said otherwise. Dr. MacArthur has said that the tithe is not for today, but he also has said that God does not guarantee us free from trial and hardship, so to wait till we are debt free seems ludicrous as so few people these days are debt free. Dr. Stanley & Dr. Lutzer teach to tithe even if in debt.

Todd Friel (a radio evangelist) makes a great salary and I dont expect him to understand what life is like for those with meager salaries, and whom have had it hard. What do you say? I know this is a very controversial subject. Personally just because the tithe is not me mentioned in the NT does not make it unbiblical as some believe. I dont think its a law in the NT, but God does desire is to support our churches. If supporting them was only up to those that are debt free, then there would only be a few churches in our land.


John

There is no tithe for the church. We are to give from a cheerful heart as the Lord has prospered. There is no one who is not to give, but there is no base or percent to base the giving on. It is a heart issue not a percentage issue.

 

[freeatlast]

1. Title you gross income.
2. Never go into debt for anything that deprecates in value.
3. Live beneath your means.

2 and 3 is great advice. 1 is incorrect as there is no tithe for the church.

 

[Crabtownboy]

2 and 3 is great advice. 1 is incorrect as there is no tithe for the church.

1. I respectfully disagree.

2. If you do not love the Lord enough to give ten percent then do not tell my you are ready to give him your all.
3. If you do not love your fellow church members enough to give a tithe then do not tell me you are committed to the spread of the gospel.
4. If you do not trust God enough to take care of you if you give a title then do not tell me how much you trust him.
5. If you cannot live on 90% of what you and your family earn, then you should change your lifestyle.

 

[freeatlast]

1. I respectfully disagree.

2. If you do not love the Lord enough to give ten percent then do not tell my you are ready to give him your all.
3. If you do not love your fellow church members enough to give a tithe then do not tell me you are committed to the spread of the gospel.
4. If you do not trust God enough to take care of you if you give a title then do not tell me how much you trust him.
5. If you cannot live on 90% of what you and your family earn, then you should change your lifestyle.

You are talking legalism. The tithe was never a method for determining the condition of the heart. The tithe was law, we are not under that system. Any suggestion of the tithe is legalism and does not show the heart. It shows following a legal requirement. The church is told to give from the heart and tells us how to know the guidelines for that and it is not a percent. The guideline is cheerfulness not a percent or an amount. The amount we give is to be stopped at the point the joy goes out of it unlike the legalistic tithing system which never had anything to with the heart nor does it today. So we are to not give a penny above what our heart can feel the exuberant joy of the giving. Some may have a heart to give all and some almost nothing but all giving today is to come from a cheerfuul heart, not a percent.
Anyone trying to judge their heart by the tithe has been led astray.

 

[Crabtownboy]

You are talking legalism. The tithe was never a method for determining the condition of the heart. The tithe was law, we are not under that system. Any suggestion of the tithe is legalism and does not show the heart. It shows following a legal requirement. The church is told to give from the heart and tells us how to know the guidelines for that and it is not a percent. The guideline is cheerfulness not a percent or an amount. The amount we give is to be stopped at the point the joy goes out of it unlike the legalistic tithing system which never had anything to with the heart nor does it today. So we are to not give a penny above what our heart can feel the exuberant joy of the giving. Some may have a heart to give all and some almost nothing but all giving today is to come from a cheerfuul heart, not a percent.
Anyone trying to judge their heart by the tithe has been led astray.

No I am not talking legalism. I am talking about love, commitment and loyalty to God and to fellow Christians.

Actions or lack of them show the heart.

Actions or lack of them show the type of love we have.

Actions or lack of them show what type of loyalty we have.

It is simple. We can talk much, but if our actions do not support our talk it is just that ... talk.

I am not judging you as I do not know your actions ... other than that you do not believe in tithing.

I have learned through my life that I cannot afford not to tithe.

 

[preachinjesus]

I agree with MacArthur

Me too. :thumbsup:

 

[freeatlast]

No I am not talking legalism. I am talking about love, commitment and loyalty to God and to fellow Christians.

Actions or lack of them show the heart.

Actions or lack of them show the type of love we have.

Actions or lack of them show what type of loyalty we have.

It is simple. We can talk much, but if our actions do not support our talk it is just that ... talk.

I am not judging you as I do not know your actions ... other than that you do not believe in tithing.

I have learned through my life that I cannot afford not to tithe.

Well then you cannot be talking about the tithe because the tithe is legalism. The only way to express love for God is to give from the heart cheerfully with no pressure or association from or with the tithing system. The tithe is from the law under the OT, and cheerful heart giving is from the NT with no amount even suggested.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Under the new covenant, we are not in any way shape or form "under" the old covenant tithing requirment.

In the covenant we live in now..the new covenant, Gods giving instructions are...

Let each one give as he purposes in his heart, not grudgingly, or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerfull giver

If someone can only cheerfully give 50 cents, than God is fully pleased and satisfied.

In addition, it has been posted many times, by others, on this website that even under the old covenant the tithing requirment had nothing to do with money

Now, if someome freely purposes in thier heart to give 10%, thats fine, as long as they are not in any way decieved into thinking that God is commanding it, for He is not.

We give whatever we want to give, with a joyfull heart.

 

[Crabtownboy]

It is interesting the things we remember from childhood. Many years ago, when I was a kid I remember a preacher saying, "If you want to find out how Christian an American is talk about giving away his/her money. Americans are less afraid of death than in giving away their money." I believe that it even more true today than then.

 

[freeatlast]

It is interesting the things we remember from childhood. Many years ago, when I was a kid I remember a preacher saying, "If you want to find out how Christian an American is talk about giving away his/her money. Americans are less afraid of death than in giving away their money." I believe that it even more true today than then.

That may very well be, but that shows the heart, not the tithe. The tithe shows nothing but obedience to a legal system. The NT formula for giving exposes the heart as well as is a blessing to the heart. All are to give, no exceptions, but we are to give the amount that makes us cheerful according to how God has prospered us. The tithe did not care how God prospered us as it was a set amount. The poor gave a tenth and the rich gave a tenth. That is not what God wants for the church!
Those who follow the tithe or any principle of the tithe are in bondage! The NT sets us free from that and makes our giving a cheerful event and one that is a blessing to the Lord..

 

[Crabtownboy]

That may very well be, but that shows the heart, not the tithe. The tithe shows nothing but obedience to a legal system. The NT formula for giving exposes the heart as well as is a blessing to the heart. All are to give, no exceptions, but we are to give the amount that makes us cheerful according to how God has prospered us. The tithe did not care how God prospered us as it was a set amount. The poor gave a tenth and the rich gave a tenth. That is not what God wants for the church!
Those who follow the tithe or any principle of the tithe are in bondage! The NT sets us free from that and makes our giving a cheerful event and one that is a blessing to the Lord..

Remember you rant about legalism the next time you are tempted to quote the OT to prove your point.

To me personally a tithe simply means a tenth with no legalistic commands. It seems the least I can give back to the Lord. If it was good enough for the OT folk and if it was good enough for Jesus then it is fine with me. No where does Jesus say the tithe is null and void. My take is he did not feel he needed to talk about the tithe as it was a given. No where does Christ make a break with the tithe.

No each person has to make up their own mind on this. Yes, the Lord loves a cheerful giver, like the widow and her mite. Of course she gave 100% not a miserly 10%. :laugh:

 

[freeatlast]

Remember you rant about legalism the next time you are tempted to quote the OT to prove your point.

To me personally a tithe simply means a tenth with no legalistic commands. It seems the least I can give back to the Lord. If it was good enough for the OT folk and if it was good enough for Jesus then it is fine with me. No where does Jesus say the tithe is null and void. My take is he did not feel he needed to talk about the tithe as it was a given. No where does Christ make a break with the tithe.

No each person has to make up their own mind on this. Yes, the Lord loves a cheerful giver, like the widow and her mite. Of course she gave 100% not a miserly 10%. :laugh:

No where does Jesus say the Sabbath is null and void so I guess you practice that also?
Look, I am telling you that you are under bondage. If you do not believe it try and drop the tithe and give like prescribed in the NT. You will then see the bondage you are under and the freedom and blessings you have been robbed of.
By the way the widow and the mite that you mentioned. That was cheerful giving not the tithe. Think about it.

 

[Crabtownboy]

No where does Jesus say the Sabbath is null and void so I guess you practice that also?
Look, I am telling you that you are under bondage. If you do not believe it try and drop the tithe and give like prescribed in the NT. You will then see the bondage you are under and the freedom and blessings you have been robbed of.
By the way the widow and the mite that you mentioned. That was cheerful giving not the tithe. Think about it.

I love my fellow church family too much to give less. And if a need arises within our church family I will give more. We are a small church and one time this little group of committed Christians raised $7000 in a week to help a member hire a lawyer and save her daughter from being taken to Iran where we were sure the father would not allow her to return. There is no bondage here. There is love. If I had a need I am confident that same little group would help me. That $7000 was above and beyond our budget. We average about 20 people at a worship service and as that figure indicates they are not slaves to their own material wants. That is an interesting dance you are trying to use, but the shoe does not fit. Money is useful only if used and it is never used better than when helping others.