Tithing and debts

[freeatlast]

I love my fellow church family too much to give less. And if a need arises within our church family I will give more. We are a small church and one time this little group of committed Christians raised $7000 in a week to help a member hire a lawyer and save her daughter from being taken to Iran where we were sure the father would not allow her to return. There is no bondage here. There is love. If I had a need I am confident that same little group would help me. That $7000 was above and beyond our budget. We average about 20 people at a worship service and as that figure indicates they are not slaves to their own material wants. That is an interesting dance you are trying to use, but the shoe does not fit. Money is useful only if used and it is never used better than when helping others.

That is great! See how God's word works better then following the legalistic side of the tithe. Now you just need to get rid of the legalism you are following with the tithe. Cheerful heart giving always surpasses any form of giving from the legalistic side like the tithe teaching.

 

[InTheLight]

2. Never go into debt for anything that deprecates in value.

I know this is a typo, but I got a chuckle out of it.

According to this rule we should never go into debt. How are people supposed to send a child through college? Buy a home? Buy a car? So tell me, what doesn't depreciate?

 

[freeatlast]

I know this is a typo, but I got a chuckle out of it.

According to this rule we should never go into debt. How are people supposed to send a child through college? Buy a home? Buy a car? So tell me, what doesn't depreciate?

Live below your means, save your money so you can pay cash, and teach your children they have to work to help support their own college education if need be, if they go at all, but stay out of debt. Learn this principle. There are two things in this life. Needs and wants. Needs are the things that we need to keep us alive today. Everything else is a want. Learn to live well within the needs and give to the Lord as He has prospered from a cheerful heart not grudgingly and not based on the tithe.

 

[InTheLight]

Live below your means, save your money so you can pay cash,

So, we're supposed to pay cash for a house. Is that what you did?

 

[freeatlast]

So, we're supposed to pay cash for a house. Is that what you did?

[SIZE=+0]You can do what ever you like, but don't use the false claim you cannot pay cash. If you can finance then you can pay cash and the money you save on a house by doing so can go for other things. The truth is most live above their means and so they finance to live even higher on the hog. I saved my money and paid cash for a used mobile home and put it is a park. I saved more money and bought a piece of land and finally moved it there. I saved more money so on and so on. You can do that until you can pay cash for a house, pay cash for your vehicles and everything you have.
You do not have to use credit if you learn the principle of wants and needs and apply the wisdom offered us in the bible by the Lord.
There was something I learned and that was I worked hard for the money I made and I did not want to throw it away on interest making someone else rich just because I did not want to exercise patience and biblical principles.
If you set your heart and mind on the Lord and His word in all things including finances you will be able to live your normal daily life without credit. It is true that others around you will have things ahead of you, but when you finally get yours they will be paid for and newer then theirs while they struggle from week to week just to keep what they have, Truely the borrower is a slave to the lender( Pro. 22:7).
[/SIZE]

 

[Crabtownboy]

So, we're supposed to pay cash for a house. Is that what you did?

By my criteria your do not have to pay cash for a house as it, in normal times, appreciates in value. But you should pay cash for a car or truck as they depreciate in value. Also currently interest rates are so low that a loan makes sense as you can invest the cash and generate a greater return than the loan will cost you.

 

[Crabtownboy]

I know this is a typo, but I got a chuckle out of it.

According to this rule we should never go into debt. How are people supposed to send a child through college? Buy a home? Buy a car? So tell me, what doesn't depreciate?

No, it is not a typo. Savings is a philosophy of life that should begin early in life. Now if this philosophy has not been followed from early adulthood then there is no way to send a child to college, buy a car, etc. without borrowing. But this means a mistake was made early in life and repeated as time passed. Here is my criteria:

1. Give a minimum of 10% to church.
2. Save a second 10%.
3. Live beneath your means.
4. Never do into debt for anything that depreciates in value.

The saving of 10% is not just for self, but also to be used to help others in need that God brings into your life.

I also believe in paying forward. That is if I give someone a gift of money I do not ask them to repay me, but to help some other person in the future ... pay it forward to another in need ... and tell them to pay it forward to another in their future.

What does not depreciate? In normal times land and housing appreciates. Investments appreciate if you are careful and work at them. There are corporations that pay dividends of 5% or more, some even 10%. So money in a savings account makes no real sense at the moment. If you are going to invest and succeed you have to work at it. And rule No. 1 is never listen to a broker.

 

[Crabtownboy]

That is great! See how God's word works better then following the legalistic side of the tithe. Now you just need to get rid of the legalism you are following with the tithe. Cheerful heart giving always surpasses any form of giving from the legalistic side like the tithe teaching.

I do not know how often I have to say there is no legalism there for me. It is my choice and I believe a good one. And, as I said previously, I have found during my life that I cannot afford not to give 10%.

 

[freeatlast]

I do not know how often I have to say there is no legalism there for me. It is my choice and I believe a good one. And, as I said previously, I have found during my life that I cannot afford not to give 10%.

If I would tell someone that Sabbath keeping or them not eating pork for religious reasons was legalism they might reject it also, but their rejection does not make it any less true. Any attempt to follow the tithe is legalism. We are told in the NT how we are to give and it has absolutely nothing to do with the tithe. When I first became a Christian I followed the tithe thinking that was what God wanted, but I soon found out from reading the bible that is not what the Lord wants. He wants us to give such as He has prospered us from a cheerful heart. The tithe cannot meet that. The only way to honor the Lord is to do it His way and the tithe is not His way for the church and to teach it is one is teaching legalism.

 

[Crabtownboy]

If I would tell someone that Sabbath keeping or them not eating pork for religious reasons was legalism they might reject it also, but their rejection does not make it any less true. Any attempt to follow the tithe is legalism. We are told in the NT how we are to give and it has absolutely nothing to do with the tithe. When I first became a Christian I followed the tithe thinking that was what God wanted, but I soon found out from reading the bible that is not what the Lord wants. He wants us to give such as He has prospered us from a cheerful heart. The tithe cannot meet that. The only way to honor the Lord is to do it His way and the tithe is not His way for the church and to teach it is one is teaching legalism.

Initially I said that I respectfully disagree. I did not say that I tithe or that anyone should tithe because of scripture.

Here is what I believe. I do believe that people should tithe as it helps their fellow Christians. It show a loyalty and love for them. It also shows that they are concerned about God's kingdom and the carrying out of the great commission of taking the gospel into the world.

I believe that giving a tithe teaches a lesson to the giver that they do not have to spend all they earn. That material self-indulgence is not what Christ taught.

If ten families tithe a new church can be organized and begun and God's word preached in a new place.

I also believe every person should save and invest at least 10% of what they earn. This is not just for themselves or their families, but also in order that they will be able to help others in need that God brings into their lives.

This is a philosophy of life, a way of life, in you will. I do not believe God keeps score, but I do believe he approves of helping the church and in helping others. It is the way of life that my wife and I have followed since were were wed. And, as I said, experience has shown me that I cannot afford not to give at least a tenth and at times more. I do not expect merit nor thanks for this.

I see nothing in the life and teachings of Christ that says that he [Christ] nor God disapproves of giving to and above a tithe.

There is no legalism here. It is love of God and of our fellow mankind.

 

[freeatlast]

Initially I said that I respectfully disagree. I did not say that I tithe or that anyone should tithe because of scripture.

Here is what I believe. I do believe that people should tithe as it helps their fellow Christians. It show a loyalty and love for them. It also shows that they are concerned about God's kingdom and the carrying out of the great commission of taking the gospel into the world.

I believe that giving a tithe teaches a lesson to the giver that they do not have to spend all they earn. That material self-indulgence is not what Christ taught.

If ten families tithe a new church can be organized and begun and God's word preached in a new place.

I also believe every person should save and invest at least 10% of what they earn. This is not just for themselves or their families, but also in order that they will be able to help others in need that God brings into their lives.

This is a philosophy of life, a way of life, in you will. I do not believe God keeps score, but I do believe he approves of helping the church and in helping others. It is the way of life that my wife and I have followed since were were wed. And, as I said, experience has shown me that I cannot afford not to give at least a tenth and at times more. I do not expect merit nor thanks for this.

I see nothing in the life and teachings of Christ that says that he [Christ] nor God disapproves of giving to and above a tithe.

There is no legalism here. It is love of God and of our fellow mankind.

The fact that you have in your mind figured a way to disregard the word of God for giving to support what you feel is a better way, even though it sounds very admirable, does not mean it is not legalism. The tithe is legalistic. The only faith based giving being done is by those following following the prescribed method spelled out in the NT, not the OT. The rest is legalistic giving.
Any time anyone has to have a standard set for an amount so as to base their level of giving it is legalism. The tithe is always legalistic.
Every person who names the name of the Lord is to give, but no one is to give anything based on the tithe as the tithe is legalistic. The tithe is not faith based, it is legalistic.

 

[12strings]

The fact that you have in your mind figured a way to disregard the word of God for giving to support what you feel is a better way, even though it sounds very admirable, does not mean it is not legalism. The tithe is legalistic. The only faith based giving being done is by those following following the prescribed method spelled out in the NT, not the OT. The rest is legalistic giving.
Any time anyone has to have a standard set for an amount so as to base their level of giving it is legalism. The tithe is always legalistic.
Every person who names the name of the Lord is to give, but no one is to give anything based on the tithe as the tithe is legalistic. The tithe is not faith based, it is legalistic.

I agree with Crab. While I do not believe a strict enforcement of a tithe can be supported in scripture, I don't think there is anything legalistic about teaching someone, especially a new christian, who might have never given anything before, that 10% is a worthy goal to shoot for. You can say something like, "In the Old Testament, The Israelites would often give 10% of their harvest to God as an expression of thankfulness and trust that He would care for them. We as NT believers are not given a fixed amount to give, but we are told to give cheefully and be generous; and if you can give 10%, that might be a good place to start. If not, maybe try 5%."

This kind of grace-based instruction would be no different than a Pastor telling a new Christian, "I think it would be helpful for you to try to lead your family in worship 2 times this week." Directing your family to worship God is biblical, the 2x is not, but it often helps people to have a quantifiable goal in mind. Pastor often say things like, "Go home this week and think of 3 ways to show gratitude to your spouse." It's not legalism, but rather a helpful goal to set some new good habits in our lives.

 

[InTheLight]

No, it is not a typo.

You wrote "deprecate". I believe you meant to type "depreciate". It was funny.

 

[Crabtownboy]

You wrote "deprecate". I believe you meant to type "depreciate". It was funny.

You are right. Sorry about the mistake. Yes, it is funny. At least I did not say decapitate. :laugh:

 

[freeatlast]

I agree with Crab. While I do not believe a strict enforcement of a tithe can be supported in scripture, I don't think there is anything legalistic about teaching someone, especially a new christian, who might have never given anything before, that 10% is a worthy goal to shoot for. You can say something like, "In the Old Testament, The Israelites would often give 10% of their harvest to God as an expression of thankfulness and trust that He would care for them. We as NT believers are not given a fixed amount to give, but we are told to give cheefully and be generous; and if you can give 10%, that might be a good place to start. If not, maybe try 5%."

This kind of grace-based instruction would be no different than a Pastor telling a new Christian, "I think it would be helpful for you to try to lead your family in worship 2 times this week." Directing your family to worship God is biblical, the 2x is not, but it often helps people to have a quantifiable goal in mind. Pastor often say things like, "Go home this week and think of 3 ways to show gratitude to your spouse." It's not legalism, but rather a helpful goal to set some new good habits in our lives.

No it is not that you agree with Crab, but that you disagree with God. The word of God trumps both of your views.
There is only one way to follow the Lord and that does not include the BurgerKing way. All tithing is legalistic and not faith based.

 

[MB]

Listening to some old Way of the Master podcasts and Todd has said a number of times not to tithe or give money until you are debt free. I wonder if what he says is Biblical as Dr. Stanley, Dr. Lutzer, and also Dr. MacArthur have said otherwise. Dr. MacArthur has said that the tithe is not for today, but he also has said that God does not guarantee us free from trial and hardship, so to wait till we are debt free seems ludicrous as so few people these days are debt free. Dr. Stanley & Dr. Lutzer teach to tithe even if in debt.

Todd Friel (a radio evangelist) makes a great salary and I dont expect him to understand what life is like for those with meager salaries, and whom have had it hard. What do you say? I know this is a very controversial subject. Personally just because the tithe is not me mentioned in the NT does not make it unbiblical as some believe. I dont think its a law in the NT, but God does desire is to support our churches. If supporting them was only up to those that are debt free, then there would only be a few churches in our land.


John

For me I've found something far better than tithing. Since the tithes are no longer stored for times of need. I allow the Lord to direct me on when to give, how much, and in what way.
MB

 

[Crabtownboy]

For me I've found something far better than tithing. Since the tithes are no longer stored for times of need. I allow the Lord to direct me on when to give, how much, and in what way.
MB

I am always interested in how individuals discern what God wants them to do. How do you determine how the Lord is directing you?

 

[12strings]

No it is not that you agree with Crab, but that you disagree with God. The word of God trumps both of your views.
There is only one way to follow the Lord and that does not include the BurgerKing way. All tithing is legalistic and not faith based.

Please show my how what I said is legalistic. Please show me how suggesting a tithe as one possible option for giving is legalistic. Please show me how it is any different than suggesting that a man find 3 ways to show kindness to his wife this week. If you are saying what I think you are saying, then ANY specific application given by a pastor would be legalism.

 

[freeatlast]

I am always interested in how individuals discern what God wants them to do. How do you determine how the Lord is directing you?

I know htis will shock many, but there is this new book out there called the bible and it claims it is of God so I seek to follow what it teaches instead of man.

 

[freeatlast]

Please show my how what I said is legalistic. Please show me how suggesting a tithe as one possible option for giving is legalistic. Please show me how it is any different than suggesting that a man find 3 ways to show kindness to his wife this week. If you are saying what I think you are saying, then ANY specific application given by a pastor would be legalism.

Have you read the bible? In particular the NT? The tithe was give under the law. The giving from the heart such as God has prospered giving cheerfully was given to the church. To return to law and reject faith giving is legalism.